silktricks Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 But I still think it's the married person who bears the greatest responsibility to keep that line from being crossed...to keep that door shut. It's the married person's responsibility to tell all others to stay back...I have to do this on my own. It's the married person's responsibility to remind all others that...well...they are married. It's very hard to have an affair with a married person unless the married person wants to cross that line. And if you are married, that line is well-defined...kind of like a big flashing neon sign. If you are single...you have made no vows to anyone...you are foot-loose, fancy-free...the lines may not be as well defined. You may need the married person to define them for you. I think it is the married person's responsibility to DEFINE and ENFORCE the lines that are needed to protect his or her marriage. You can't expect some outside person to do it for you. Though this is true - it's persnickety IMO. This is about double standards, that people judge one person differently than they judge another for the same offense. Of course they/we do. If my son stole $1,000 from me, I would far more readily forgive him than if a buddy of his did. I would not tell my son that he would no longer be welcome, yet his buddy would definitely no longer be welcome in my home. I have a relationship with my son. I know that he screwed-up big time, and that he violated his relationship with me, but I would deal with him from the basis of the existing relationship. There would be penalties for him, and he wouldn't be happy about the repurcussions, but we would get past the problem eventually. I have no relationship with his buddy. Sure, my son invited him into the house, but that doesn't mean I have to show him the same understanding I would show my son. In no uncertain terms he would be told he could never again come to my house. Would I forgive him? Probably at some time, but certainly not at the same level as I would my son. He was an outsider to my circle and he invaded my home. No less - an OW has invaded my home. It does not matter a particle to me whether she was invited or not. She certainly knew she would not be welcomed by ME. This situation now is between me and her. My husband and the consequences between him and me are a separate matter. Tell me this: If a married person in a rotten marriage stood on a rooftop and screamed out, "I'm weak and vulnerable and in a rotten marriage. Come and get me" and 10 OP's lined up at the front door.. who would you blame? The 10 OP's or the married person who invited them in?Both. Both have injured the BS. One is no less culpable than the other, as they both KNEW they were injuring the betrayed person and chose their own selfish gratification over the known injury to another person. This whole thing, though, is quite silly in my mind. OW most often want to make it into an intellectual enterprise. It is not. This is a pain at the most visceral level there is. What is is. What one feels one feels. It doesn't matter if someone expresses the idea that there is a "double-standard" in how the two perpetrators are treated, because the entire process is experienced before it is ever processed by the brain. Do you really think that someone who attacks or even kills in a love-triangle examines the pros and cons of the situation? I don't think so.... the brain is not engaged or it would become obvious quite quickly that the possible consequences are most assuredly not worth the momentary satisfaction.
taylor Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 If my son stole $1,000 from me, I would far more readily forgive him than if a buddy of his did. I would not tell my son that he would no longer be welcome, yet his buddy would definitely no longer be welcome in my home. I have a relationship with my son. I know that he screwed-up big time, and that he violated his relationship with me, but I would deal with him from the basis of the existing relationship. There would be penalties for him, and he wouldn't be happy about the repurcussions, but we would get past the problem eventually. But to an objective viewer, your son could easily be seen as the bigger demon. How dare a son steal from his own mother.. a mother who cared for him, fed him, trusted him...a mother he supposedly loves. Of course you will forgive him sooner than a stranger. Blood is thicker than water. But it doesn't diminish the crime, just because he's your son. It just makes his crime against you appear more demonic. It doesn't matter if someone expresses the idea that there is a "double-standard" in how the two perpetrators are treated, because the entire process is experienced before it is ever processed by the brain. But eventually it is processed by the brain. And if a BS blames the OP for the affair, rather than the WS....holds the OP accountable, but not the WS....augments the devastation the OP brought upon the marriage, but minimizes the devastation the WS brought upon the marriage....chances are the WS will not feel the consequences he/she needs to feel to make full restitution. The cheating spouse can quite conceivably "get away" with infidelity..walk away "unscathed" as long as his BS is focusing anger at the OP instead of him.
taylor Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 I often asked myself, how could a woman who's gone through the same thing do this to another woman? Just sickening... but, I think she just needed a man and when my WH paid attention to her, she reached out to him because she wanted a man, even a married man. When he came home to me and after 2 months of NC with her, started calling her, she again took him back when I kicked him out. Then last week he asked to come home, said she was a mistake... so now I wonder how that makes her feel. Pathetic, I look at this OW and think how sad she must be, but I don't owe her forgiveness... at this point, I'm not even sure if I can forgive my stupid WH, I don't have it in me to even think about the OW. Molley, I am sorry, but it is your husband who sounds pathetic here.
complicatedlife Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 I've been following this thread and thinking to myself, "Gee, I must be the world's weirdest person." And I say that because it is easier for me to forgive a stranger for their wrongs than it is for me to forgive a friend or a family member. My rationale? The stranger doesn't know me - doesn't owe me a thing. But a friend? Most of my friends are friends of mine from childhood - the rest I met in college and a few at work, so I feel like there really should be no excuse for certain transgressions. My family? Even worse - it's my FAMILY. I'd never do anything to hurt them...in fact, I'd go out of my way and cause MYSELF harm before I harmed them intentionally. So I look at that and I say that if my family and friends feel the same as I do (and most do), it would be difficult to forgive them, though not impossible. I was married young. If my former husband cheated on me, I know that I would not have left, especially coming from a culture where mistresses and second families are not uncommon. Now, at this time in my life? He'd come home and find me and my clothes gone - I wouldn't even say a word. If I was to say something, it'd be the same way my mom's associate did - her story of how she divorced her husband: "My husband cheated and when I found out, I packed his bags and put them at the door with a mango on top of the big suitcase. When he came home and asked, 'What is this?' I said, 'Why do I have to talk to you? You don't understand what MAN GO means?!'" :lmao: God, that's so ridiculously corny, but still so funny!
taylor Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 A psychologist my husband had the benefit of said that men forgive more easily than women... largely due to the differences between the genders in their emotional wiring. I want you to know, Taylor, that I truly respect the dignity and responsibility you have expressed in this thread. You sound like someone very worthwhile... and very much worth knowing... I bet your husband sees this in you. You know, the difficult thing about infidelity for me... has been forgetting. The grief and anger towards my husband has dissipated so much to nearly non-existent due primarily to the fact that he has owned his actions enough to dig deep within himself and heal hurts he chose to run from previously. So that takes courage. However, you are right. One doesn't forget and like you I struggle with constant reminders. Gentle periods of sadness can fall upon me even when I least expect it. Remembering. Remembering what I used to think we were. Remembering that the 'old'/past is gone. Other married couples can see their life as a continuum. I feel like my marriage is like a record that skips. The song is there, it just doesn't play as smoothly and without the unpleasant interruptions. I am a sentimental person so losing the warmth and memories associated with the warmth is a sad thing. No matter how I heal, the forgetting... well... let's hope that I no longer have the routine triggers. Every time I hear her name. Or see someone with her coloring. Or see the dates on the calendar... or even think of 2008 in its entirety I am filled with sadness as if someone has died. A tremendous sense of loss and the ever present wish that things were different. Thank you for the kind words, Gamine. I hope you are right about men and women being wired differently in terms of their ability to forgive. The struggle to recover continues...More good days than bad. Forgiveness is definately a cornerstone to recovery. Forgetting. I don't think that is possible because we don't have the ability to have selective amnesia. But hopefully, time takes the sting out of the times when triggers yank us back to the dark days during and immediately following the affair.
taylor Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 I've been following this thread and thinking to myself, "Gee, I must be the world's weirdest person." And I say that because it is easier for me to forgive a stranger for their wrongs than it is for me to forgive a friend or a family member. My rationale? The stranger doesn't know me - doesn't owe me a thing. But a friend? Most of my friends are friends of mine from childhood - the rest I met in college and a few at work, so I feel like there really should be no excuse for certain transgressions. My family? Even worse - it's my FAMILY. I'd never do anything to hurt them...in fact, I'd go out of my way and cause MYSELF harm before I harmed them intentionally. So I look at that and I say that if my family and friends feel the same as I do (and most do), it would be difficult to forgive them, though not impossible. Doesn't sound wierd at all. Sounds normal. I agree that when a family member or trusted friend violates us, the "crime" seems so much worse than if a stranger did it. Forgiveness should come easier to those we love, but often I think it is harder because the cut is so much deeper.
Snowflower Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 I agree. Just not sure what stage he is in right now and I'm afraid to ask. I become most paranoid about this when we hit yet another rough spot in recovery...mostly when he seems to withdraw and communication seems to wane or diminish to dull, safe topics such as the weather or what's on TV. I cringe now when songs or TV shows come on that have cheating themes. I cringe when we drive by the place of employment where the OM and I had the EA. I even cringe when a car like the one the OM drives goes by on the highway. Each time I wonder what my husband is thinking and feeling. And I say to myself, "How can he ever forgive me for this." taylor, interesting insight about how you, as a FWS, feels about your own infidelity. Thank you for sharing...I often wonder what my husband thinks about his own actions. I'm not trying to generalize but WH seem to be able to compartmentalize their affairs easier than women. I know my husband does this-he has admitted as much to me. He says he likes to forget that it ever happened. I wish I could! Us women, on the other hand, seem to find reminders in everything...and from what you post this seems to be true whether you were the WW or BW. However, there are times when I know that he is thinking of what he did...no, he is not thinking of her...but he is thinking about what he did. And what is with all the shows/songs about infidelity lately? Those are such strong triggers. In fact, my husband will try to distract me/us when a reference to infidelity comes up on tv. I know my husband is worried that I will give up on our marriage suddenly, or that I truly did not forgive him. taylor, from the viewpoint of a BS, please try to talk to your husband when he seems to withdraw. I know it has to be difficult for both of you-but complacency is dangerous, and so is avoiding the tough topics. This is probably partially what led you guys to that weak place in your marriage before.
bentnotbroken Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 Thank you for the kind words, Gamine. I hope you are right about men and women being wired differently in terms of their ability to forgive. The struggle to recover continues...More good days than bad. Forgiveness is definately a cornerstone to recovery. Forgetting. I don't think that is possible because we don't have the ability to have selective amnesia. But hopefully, time takes the sting out of the times when triggers yank us back to the dark days during and immediately following the affair. That includes forgiving yourself for the things you have repented for and moving away from them. If God doesn't still beat you over the head with, don't beat yourself either. It keeps you in the past, not completely enjoying the present, and not looking forward to the future.
Gamine Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 I've been following this thread and thinking to myself, "Gee, I must be the world's weirdest person." And I say that because it is easier for me to forgive a stranger for their wrongs than it is for me to forgive a friend or a family member. My rationale? The stranger doesn't know me - doesn't owe me a thing. But a friend? Most of my friends are friends of mine from childhood - the rest I met in college and a few at work, so I feel like there really should be no excuse for certain transgressions. My family? Even worse - it's my FAMILY. I'd never do anything to hurt them...in fact, I'd go out of my way and cause MYSELF harm before I harmed them intentionally. So I look at that and I say that if my family and friends feel the same as I do (and most do), it would be difficult to forgive them, though not impossible. I was married young. If my former husband cheated on me, I know that I would not have left, especially coming from a culture where mistresses and second families are not uncommon. Now, at this time in my life? He'd come home and find me and my clothes gone - I wouldn't even say a word. If I was to say something, it'd be the same way my mom's associate did - her story of how she divorced her husband: "My husband cheated and when I found out, I packed his bags and put them at the door with a mango on top of the big suitcase. When he came home and asked, 'What is this?' I said, 'Why do I have to talk to you? You don't understand what MAN GO means?!'" :lmao: God, that's so ridiculously corny, but still so funny! Now that is funny!
foreal Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 Taylor I read a good book, How Can I Forgive You? The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not To by Janis Abrahms Spring. It helped me, the BW, a lot b/c I struggle with the issue of forgiveness as what my WH did seems so unforgivable to me. The author divides forgiveness into: 1. Cheap Forgiveness 2. Refusing to Forgive 3. Acceptance 4. Genuine Forgiveness It does not just apply to infidelity, although that is the topic. Reading it (together or at the same time?) may help you open up the discussion with your BH?
complicatedlife Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Taylor I read a good book, How Can I Forgive You? The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not To by Janis Abrahms Spring. It helped me, the BW, a lot b/c I struggle with the issue of forgiveness as what my WH did seems so unforgivable to me. The author divides forgiveness into: 1. Cheap Forgiveness 2. Refusing to Forgive 3. Acceptance 4. Genuine Forgiveness It does not just apply to infidelity, although that is the topic. Reading it (together or at the same time?) may help you open up the discussion with your BH? The book expands on what is bolded - and when she gets into "What you need to do to be forgiven" and "What you need to do to be able to forgive" - priceless. I encourage every human being to read this book. Much wisdom and insight in it, and Dr. Spring is a great therapist.
complicatedlife Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Now that is funny! Oh, too funny! And even funnier when she tells it herself with her Jamaican accent!
complicatedlife Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Doesn't sound wierd at all. Sounds normal. I felt like I was weird because so many posters said that it would be a walk in the park to forgive their family member/spouse as opposed to a stranger. I'm quite the opposite - but, I also think that the brunt of responsibility in an affair belongs to the spouse doing the cheating as they are the one who is committed...
Molley Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 [/b] Not trying to defend the OW, Molley, but it's possible this woman is hurting, just like you are hurting, from infidelity. I am sure you and she share some of the same vulnerabilities..perhaps fear, perhaps diminished self-esteem..self-confidence. You took the high road. She took the nearest opportunity that made itself available...YOUR HUSBAND. You question, "What was she thinking?" Probably the same thing many women think when their husband's cheat on them...I'm not good enough...what's wrong with me. Some (not all) reach out to other men to get some validation...men that will make them feel good about themselves again. She reached out and who reached back...YOUR HUSBAND. In some ways I can see why she cheated. Vulnerability. Weakness. Emotional confusion. Weakened boundaries. Devalued marriage. IMO, the real question is WHY did your husband reach out to her.? Why didn't he back off...leave her alone..to work out her own problems. Perhaps your husband served as a rebound relationship for her. He willingly obliged. Surely as two women victimized by infidelity, you can each "see" the other one's side of things. I am sorry I have not kept up with your posts..at least not since early June. At that point you had kicked him out because he called her, but then you took him back and were working hard at recovery. If I'm reading this post correctly, it sounds like he contacted her again, you kicked him out again, he moved in with her, and now wants to come back home again? Please correct me if I am reading this wrong. From what I recall, you worked so hard to recover your marriage from day 1. You gave your husband the benefit of the doubt. You invested time and energy into fixing the problems in the marriage and in understanding the dynamics of the affair. And yet he goes to the OW again, plays house, only to return home again, last week? What are you going to do? What are you thinking? I'm shocked. I thought all was going well for the two of you since June. I must have missed alot of posts. . I know I need to update my post... just haven't had the stength to do so... Yes, all was going well... early July H seemed to click back into the marriage, we were happy, talking, making plans... then a couple weeks later he leaves for a week on business. The first night he's gone, he starts calling her, they end up talking the whole week... I know something's up... I can just tell. He comes home on my birthday, he's in a fog again... next morning I find his hotel receipt, showing me all the long distance phone calls he's made the OW. I asked him to please tell me if he's been talking with her, he tells me "nope, have no idea where she is." So I show him the receipt... He falls apart, I tell him to get out of the house, that I've had enough. Took me a week to get him out then once he's out, NC with him for a bit over a week. Then he calls me and says that he's made a huge mistake, she was a mistake but that he's made such a mess out of the our marriage the he doesn't know if things can be corrected.... On Monday night I finally said, ok, let's give it another try, but he now has to do the heavy lifting, has to show me he wants this marriage to work, I want a NC letter sent to her and MC.... Of course, he comes back,first night is good. But he still hasn't sent the letter to her, says he doesn't want to hurt her any further. I need to add, that the whole time he was away from the house, he stayed at a hotel, didn't move in with her and the communicated only a few times. Saw each other 1 time, when she brough him some food to work. So, I'm just trying to figure things out right now... anyway, sorry didn't mean to TJ... here You are right, I'm sure the OW is suffering from what her H did 5 years ago, I'm sure she's lonely. I know my H reached out to her because he was also lonely.
tami-chan Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 the ow or om are irrelevant and who really cares about forgiving them,what does it really matter if a bs forgives or dosent forgive the op....its not like they have to live with them and as long as the ws goes nc, then why would they even waste time with forgiving or not fogiving someone who is irrelevant to there future. I agree. ...I really do not get this "forgive the AP" thing...unless of course, there was a prior relationship and there is no way of not "bumping into her/him again in family gatherings (i.e. sister/brother/cousin, etc)....maybe a BS would consider meting out forgiveness (that is, of course if the AP even wants to be forgiven). Do BS's really think APs want to be forgiven? The goal of the BSs should be, to be indifferent to the AP.
Sanafa Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 I agree. ...I really do not get this "forgive the AP" thing...unless of course, there was a prior relationship and there is no way of not "bumping into her/him again in family gatherings (i.e. sister/brother/cousin, etc)....maybe a BS would consider meting out forgiveness (that is, of course if the AP even wants to be forgiven). Do BS's really think APs want to be forgiven? The goal of the BSs should be, to be indifferent to the AP. Interesting thread... gone a few days and you miss everything. I haven't gone through much but found it interesting that someone said unprotected sex was the deal breaker. It was something the MM lied about to the W, and I am sure never came clean for.....however, she still wanted to have tests done, and I would think most W's would?? She had other reasons behind her as well, but I know if it were me, I wouldn't take his word for protected sex.....sorry, I just know for me ( perhaps OW can speak as well) we were tested about 2 months into our A and from there did not use protection. I would be surprised how many really do, regardless of what they do. A little off topic, but guess I assumed all just "assumed" it was unprotected and had the tests done post DDay. Hopefully tomorrow will be a slower day and I will be able to read a little more here.
tami-chan Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 I know I need to update my post... just haven't had the stength to do so... Yes, all was going well... early July H seemed to click back into the marriage, we were happy, talking, making plans... then a couple weeks later he leaves for a week on business. The first night he's gone, he starts calling her, they end up talking the whole week... I know something's up... I can just tell. He comes home on my birthday, he's in a fog again... next morning I find his hotel receipt, showing me all the long distance phone calls he's made the OW. I asked him to please tell me if he's been talking with her, he tells me "nope, have no idea where she is." So I show him the receipt... He falls apart, I tell him to get out of the house, that I've had enough. Took me a week to get him out then once he's out, NC with him for a bit over a week. Then he calls me and says that he's made a huge mistake, she was a mistake but that he's made such a mess out of the our marriage the he doesn't know if things can be corrected.... On Monday night I finally said, ok, let's give it another try, but he now has to do the heavy lifting, has to show me he wants this marriage to work, I want a NC letter sent to her and MC.... Of course, he comes back,first night is good. But he still hasn't sent the letter to her, says he doesn't want to hurt her any further. I need to add, that the whole time he was away from the house, he stayed at a hotel, didn't move in with her and the communicated only a few times. Saw each other 1 time, when she brough him some food to work. So, I'm just trying to figure things out right now... anyway, sorry didn't mean to TJ... here You are right, I'm sure the OW is suffering from what her H did 5 years ago, I'm sure she's lonely. I know my H reached out to her because he was also lonely. Hi Molly! Good to "see" you....but sorry that it is still a rollercoaster for you...Gosh, Molly, either your H is the nicest guy around and wants to save this seemingly lost soul or he is just really lost himself.... Wishing you better days!
taylor Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Taylor, something else you should know. Whether he forgave you too soon or not, it isn't your call. Trust that God has a plan. For me the forgiveness was a daily thing for a long time. I had to tell myself when the triggers came up, when the pain resurfaced, when the anger snuck up on me again. I do forgive them. I make that choice. I will stand by that choice. Sometimes I had to do it more than once a day. But it appears your H has made that choice and continues to make that choice daily. That is a blessing. Thank you for this compassionate post, bnb. It makes alot of sense to me. I'll remember that... take it day by day.
ForumFool Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 If my husband cheated on me ..and the OW was really sorry and came to me on her own...not to harm him or me cause they broke up or something....or expose to win him so to speak but because she was sorry ..(being sorry is the key thing here)......YES I would forgive her ...why not? In fact I think I could forgive the OW easier than the husband.. I find the entitlement due to the fact she didn't take a vow with me to be what would be nearly unforgivable...It's a lack of personal responsibility. I never vowed not to run a red light and run a child over but if I did it would clearly be wrong and something I ought not to do
Spark1111 Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Molly, man up! Do you love this man? If yes, start fighting for your relationship. Expose it to all. Make it uncomfortable. Tell her your husband is begging to reconcile and while you are deciding if you even want him back, she better back off. He is not allowed to "be friends" with someone he was shagging behind your back. If there is continued contact, you will shout it from the roof tops to all. Let him listen to you taking control. Forget about him writing a letter. He's adrift in a sea of confusion. Enough! Tell him to man up! YOU deserve a loving and devoted partner. IC and MC are mandatory. Ask for everything you need from him and he better deliver. Otherwise, tell him he can go get her as you would like to start dating in hopes of finding the wonderful romantic partner you deserve! You are starting this Saturday. Call your girlfriends and go out.
Spark1111 Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 This is called, helping the WS to make a decision, to snap out of it so to speak, so I can move on with my life one way or another.
taylor Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Taylor I read a good book, How Can I Forgive You? The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not To by Janis Abrahms Spring. It helped me, the BW, a lot b/c I struggle with the issue of forgiveness as what my WH did seems so unforgivable to me. The author divides forgiveness into: 1. Cheap Forgiveness 2. Refusing to Forgive 3. Acceptance 4. Genuine Forgiveness It does not just apply to infidelity, although that is the topic. Reading it (together or at the same time?) may help you open up the discussion with your BH? Thank you for this suggestion, foreal. Never heard of the book but will get it and start reading TODAY. While in the Retrouvaille program for marriage recovery, forgiveness was touched upon, but the whole process what not explored to any great depth. At the time, only weeks after D-day, being forgiven or forgiving myself was not even at the top of my list, so I didn't give it much weight. At the time, my prime considerations were trying to see value in my marriage again (was it worth saving), restoring trust, and learning how to have non-threatening, honest, effective communication. A year later, the forgiveness issue is front and center. Thanks again.
silktricks Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 But to an objective viewer, your son could easily be seen as the bigger demon. How dare a son steal from his own mother.. a mother who cared for him, fed him, trusted him...a mother he supposedly loves. Of course you will forgive him sooner than a stranger. Blood is thicker than water. However, you are either missing or sidestepping the point. This thread has not been about objective viewers. It has been about the BS and whether or not they are exercising a "double-standard". Your statement "blood is thicker than water" frankly proves my point, which is that we humans will almost always be more forgiving towards those in our group than those out of it. That is most assuredly NOT the same as saying that all the anger is focused on the OP and none on the WS. I frankly wasn't that angry with the OW until she took to harrassing us for over a year. But eventually it is processed by the brain. And if a BS blames the OP for the affair, rather than the WS....holds the OP accountable, but not the WS....augments the devastation the OP brought upon the marriage, but minimizes the devastation the WS brought upon the marriage....chances are the WS will not feel the consequences he/she needs to feel to make full restitution. do you feel you "got away" with something? Do you believe that you will do it again? I cannot speak to all situations. Only my own and a few others I know well, but the WS didn't "get away" with anything. Because we have dealt with our WS in private we do not all have to deal with them in public. Not many of us have had the ability to deal with the other side of the triangle privately-though I do know one woman who traveled to another state to do so. You as a fWS have been experiencing internal pain according to you. Do you feel that is punishment? Maybe your H did forgive you too easily. I did not. But honestly, your (and other ow's) idea that BS hold the OP accountable and not their spouse, is ludicrous. I have not heard even a single BS either who I know IRL or one on LS who don't hold their WS fully accountable for their actions. The problem most OW have is that we also hold the OP accountable for theirs. If the OP does not know the WS is married, then they are not accountable at all. If they do know, they are.
taylor Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 I do respect your stance and you have owned your 100% or what you have done. The thing is the other person involved also has to own 100% of all their actions. No matter what the WS did. No matter what the invite was. The AP actions belong only to them. We can't answer for the actions of others. The Lord only holds us accountable for what we do. And that is the way it should be. You can't be held accountable for the AP decision to accept your offer. That was an action that he chose. He is 100% responsible everything he did to hurt her BS. Just as I believe she is responsible for the things she did to hurt me. At any point either or both of them could have made the decision to decline the offer to have sex in the others home. (Him: come by my house while BNB is at work. Her: I am not going into another woman's home. ) (Her: What do you think about sending our children to camp next summer? Him: I don't wish to discuss my family, let's get nasty:p couldn't resist) I am 100% responsible for the problems I caused in our marriage. Do you see what I am trying to say? We can only answer for our actions. You can't take on AP choices. It isn't right nor fair to you. I have read this post over and over to pound this into my head. I am positive my husband sees the AP the same way you and many of the BS on this thread do...that they are accountable for their choices and their actions and must own them..just as the WS must take ownership and accountability for their choices and actions. I am only one WS, but as a WS it is very difficult for me to "see" the OM as THE threat, THE violator, THE homewrecker, THE marriage destroyer. I know it makes no sense. And I am trying to figure out why I think or feel this way. I do feel accountable for the OM's decision to accept the "invite." I invited him and spent alot of time and energy on him to make sure he would indeed accept the invite. It was my goal and I succeeded. Sure, he accepted the invite, but how could he resist. I made it far too tempting for him. I knew how to reel him in. I wanted to reel him in. And I did..for months. It was no surprise that he "came around." It's what I wanted him to do. And when he started to respond, hesitantly at first, I gave him nothing but green lights to keep on coming. He followed my lead. The tables turned farther into the EA when he started taking the more aggressive role, pushing the relationship further and further. But I didn't stop him. It felt good to turn the reins over to him and I sat back and savored every moment. I enjoyed how he pursued..enjoyed knowing he "needed" me, wanted to spend time with me, wanted me. I enjoyed watching how quickly and easily I could provoke a response from him with every little thing I said and did. So, you see, bnb, I DO take 100 percent responsibility for my affair. I CREATED it. I caused it to happen. I MADE it happen. I don't know how other WS's affairs came into being. Only my own. Perhaps in some, the OW/OM was the one who created and controlled it. In mine, it was me. A long time ago, right after D-day, a poster here (Lakeside Dream) accused me of trying to control 2 men's lives...my H and my OM. I denied it, telling him I had NO CONTROL whatsoever....my emotions were out of control and the affair had taken some turns that were totally out of my control. But that poster was so RIGHT in many ways. I did have the control. I was in the driver's seat...almost until the end. I started it. A third party ended it (not my H). Perhaps in some, where the AP is the one who "starts" it and "controls" it, it is easier to place blame on that particular AP. But I can't in my case. In fact, when I wrote a closure letter to the OM I apologized to him for possibly hurting him (not sure if I did hurt him. he went silent on me) and I told him I took 100 percent of the blame for our friendship crossing the lines that it did because I am the married one. It's funny. A coworker of mine, who knew what was happening at work, said, "He (the OM) was grooming you for a sexual encounter and you didn't even know it." His words confused me because the WHOLE TIME, I thought I was the one grooming him...not so much for sex....but for an emotional attachment I desperately wanted with SOMEONE. I wanted that connection and he gave it to me. I guess "reality" depends on what perspective you are coming from. And so I guess WHO we choose to blame also depends on your own personal perspective as well. I am starting to "get" the BS perspective of holding the AP accountable for their actions, as well. It's been interesting to read the insights because I never looked at my OM in this light..as a perpetrator, a violator..as being accountable in any way.
Gamine Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 I don't know... but for me I had this guy standing in front of me who was in a dark hole and I was the only one to stand by him and pull him out. You know, there are quite a few people who want to mock the BS for staying with their WS. But, you know, it really takes brass ones to do it. If all I am is a 'good time Charlie' and abandon the one who I promised I would care for in sickness and in health... well then I'm a shallow sack of you know what. So, there is this man... my husband of 14 years... looking like he is destroyed... looking 20 years older... confused. Obviously in deep emotional/psychological trouble. I stay, suffer through the trickle truth, get him help and me? Well I did the right thing even if it cost me because I don't know how to abandon someone I love when they need me. So, I have released him from owing me. In some circles that's called forgiveness ... when you don't hold the person in debt for the wrongdoing. He has no debt. I did it out of love... my love. This happens to be a journey I have no need to extend to the OW. They would have been better served to adopt the self help techniques of Al Franken's character on SNL "Stuart Smalley" than to abuse a trust. These women I consider vipers and as far as I am concerned I'll never have any use for them whatsoever. No forgiveness goes to users who don't apologize. I will walk through fire for those I love and for those in need. Vipers get nothing from me. There's a thread concerning... what was the craziest thing done following D'day. I told them I'd basically kick their asses if they came sniffing around again. Hey, I'm from New Jersey... go figure.
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