marlena Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Misogynists rarely end up wanting more with a MW than some quick thrills. Nah, this descibes MM in general. Most, not all, are just out for the thrill like you said. And they are very,very much into women on a physical level. A true hater of women is repulsed by femininity. They usually join a monastery or turn their attentions to other men! There is misogyny and then there is disguised misogyny. Not the same thing IMO.
Author Woggle Posted June 13, 2009 Author Posted June 13, 2009 yup, there it is. cheesebag. i have to assume that you haven't met a lot of feminists. you wanna be careful when using phrases like "they believe" and "feminists tend". i am lucky enough to be surrounded by feminists - male and female feminists, by the way - and i do not know a single one who subscribes to the ignorant one-dimensional stereotypical blather you're making up here. I lived with a feminist for the first 16 years of my life I have dealt with plenty of them. Most of them are misandrists to some degree and the ones who aren't have long ago rejected the feminist label.
marlena Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Feminists tend to keep men at arms length because of this belief but when they mess around with a married man they forget to put the armor on because the plan all along was just a casual affair. What happens is that natural emotions take over and they fall in love. Woggle, you are silly. Many affairs to start like this, I know, trust me, but it absolutely has nothing to do with feminism or misandry. I think you a bit confused on these issues.
Author Woggle Posted June 13, 2009 Author Posted June 13, 2009 Nah, this descibes MM in general. Most, not all, are just out for the thrill like you said. And they are very,very much into women on a physical level. A true hater of women is repulsed by femininity. They usually join a monastery or turn their attentions to other men! There is misogyny and then there is disguised misogyny. Not the same thing IMO. That is MM. I know a lot of single men who have a low opinion of women and like to get it on with married women because they are so easy to seduce. I feel like it is betraying my gender but many men don't have those reservations.
dobler33 Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 I have never been with a MW but my wife did convince me to change my original plan to never commit to another woman again. i have a certain amount of compassion for the suggestion of emotional trauma imbedded in this statement. it can make you quite judgemental and mistrusting of women. but please don't use this as a confirmation of your own gender biases. i have been abused and raped by men, and yet some of the most beloved people in my life - my father, my husband, my brothers, some of my best and oldest friends, colleagues and coworkers, some of my favorite writers and thinkers, my favorite artists and musicians, my favorite PEOPLE - are men. we are all victims of acculturated gender bias - myself included. i consider it my obligation as an evolved and evolving human being to tirelessly question these biases in myself. i encourage you to do the same before you start painting us all with the same brush. it only makes you look arsey.
marlena Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 I lived with a feminist for the first 16 years of my life I have dealt with plenty of them. Most of them are misandrists to some degree and the ones who aren't have long ago rejected the feminist label. Maybe they do not hate men but rather detest some of the injustices that men have inflicted on women since the beginning of time.
dobler33 Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 I lived with a feminist for the first 16 years of my life I have dealt with plenty of them. Most of them are misandrists to some degree and the ones who aren't have long ago rejected the feminist label. there are many different feminisms. please do a little research and educate yourself on the wide range of theories under the umbrella of feminism before you put your foot any farther in your mouth.
Author Woggle Posted June 13, 2009 Author Posted June 13, 2009 there are many different feminisms. please do a little research and educate yourself on the wide range of theories under the umbrella of feminism before you put your foot any farther in your mouth. There might by different types but your movement has been hijacked by the most vocal and loud element which are the militant misandrists.
Author Woggle Posted June 13, 2009 Author Posted June 13, 2009 I do not hate all women and I know many good women exist but I just refuse to end up like I see so many men end up. I actually wish for a world where men and women have mutual respect for each other and true equality exists but that is not the world we live in today. I try to be fair but the cold war between the genders that exists today has almost forced me to take a side.
dobler33 Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 There might by different types but your movement has been hijacked by the most vocal and loud element which are the militant misandrists. different feminisms, different movements. would you lump martin luther king in with huey p. newton, simply because they were both aiming for the end of racism? come on, baby. you can do better than that.
Author Woggle Posted June 13, 2009 Author Posted June 13, 2009 different feminisms, different movements. would you lump martin luther king in with huey p. newton, simply because they were both aiming for the end of racism? come on, baby. you can do better than that. No I would not but that is not a good analogy. Let's look at the republican party. All republicans are not rightwing nuts like Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin but they are quickly becoming the face of the party and the sane ones like Arlen Spector are leaving. By letting themselves be hijacked by this element the republicans have attached a stigma to themselves. By letting Gloria Steniem and NOW became the face of the feminist movement they have attached a stigma to themselves and just like Arlen Spector the sane ones are rejecting it.
dobler33 Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 No I would not but that is not a good analogy. Let's look at the republican party. All republicans are not rightwing nuts like Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin but they are quickly becoming the face of the party and the sane ones like Arlen Spector are leaving. By letting themselves be hijacked by this element the republicans have attached a stigma to themselves. By letting Gloria Steniem and NOW became the face of the feminist movement they have attached a stigma to themselves and just like Arlen Spector the sane ones are rejecting it. gloria steinem and NOW are by no means the militant set. gloria steinem took a lot of crap from some splinter groups when she got married - to a man, btw. and NOW - the national organization of women - is about as mainstream as you get. are you familiar with their politics? would you like me to send you some links? and as for the republican party, many have come out in protest against the fundamentalist christian neo-cons who are putting all the focus on useless social issues that are totally in conflict with the original ideas of the party. they place themselves at odds with the wingnuts and try to educate the public about their dissent, as i try to do. if they leave the party it might be that something else makes more sense to them, rather than the notion that their sandbox has been soiled by the idiots. the same is true for feminism.
marlena Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Oh, and conversely, would that make every man who has an affair with a MW a misogynist? It doesn't make sense. You still haven't answered the above question. Stop sidetracking the debate to suit your agenda.
dobler33 Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 You still haven't answered the above question. Stop sidetracking the debate to suit your agenda. amen. you still haven't adequately proven your connection. which, may i remind you, is something to the effect of: women who hate men get involved with married men rather than single men. do i have that right? cause it still doesn't make any sense.
Author Woggle Posted June 13, 2009 Author Posted June 13, 2009 I am fully aware that Gloria Steniem and NOW are considered the moderate which is quite scary in and of itself.
dobler33 Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 I am fully aware that Gloria Steniem and NOW are considered the moderate which is quite scary in and of itself. actually, it's scary that you think it's scary. you wouldn't want to know what some of it's like. gloria steinem and NOW are only fighting for equality, not dominion. god forbid you should meet some of the warriors in my town.
marlena Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 women who hate men get involved with married men rather than single men. do i have that right? You have it right. This is what he originally stated as being irrefutably true. The corollary would be: men who hate women get involved with married women rather than single women. So, it would seem that people who have affairs really hate eachother. Come on , Woggle! You can do better than that.
Author Woggle Posted June 13, 2009 Author Posted June 13, 2009 Women who hate man avoid love but emotions take over when they get involved with a MM Men who hate women still want to get laid and married women are considered an easy lay by many men. Most men don't fall in love with a married woman. This is it made simple.
marlena Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 This is it made simple. You are still not making any sense. Your own bias is making it simple in your own head. I know many women who just want to get laid and MM are an easy lay. They don't come any easier. Trust me. I also know many men who wanted to get laid with a MW and then fell for them hook,line and sinker. Your statements don't prove a thing. You are stereotyping to the extreme because like I said it suits your agenda.
Author Woggle Posted June 13, 2009 Author Posted June 13, 2009 You are still not making any sense. Your own bias is making it simple in your own head. I know many women who just want to get laid and MM are an easy lay. They don't come any easier. Trust me. I also know many men who wanted to get laid with a MW and then fell for them hook,line and sinker. Your statements don't prove a thing. You are stereotyping to the extreme because like I said it suits your agenda. There are exceptions to every rule but this is how it plays out most of the time.
boldjack Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 I personally like Gloria, she is a very kind and gentle Lady,( not PC, but true). I was privileged to meet many of the early (post WW2) feminist writers. Germaine Greer, Betty Friedan, and Angela Davis, following my service in Vietnam. They were, without exception, role models for people of every gender. Having left politics, I am not familiar with the present feminist thinkers.
marlena Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 I personally like Gloria, she is a very kind and gentle Lady,( not PC, but true). I was privileged to meet many of the early (post WW2) feminist writers. Germaine Greer, Betty Friedan, and Angela Davis, following my service in Vietnam. How fortunate for you! Life becomes so much more interesting when one meets people who actually made a difference in this world.
Author Woggle Posted June 13, 2009 Author Posted June 13, 2009 Many people come across as nice and charming when you meet them but it doesn't mean they are good people. Steniem is a hypocrite as well. After all that stuff she preached she goes out and marries a man. That's like David Duke marrying a black or a jewish woman or if Jerry Falwell married another man. Most zealots usually are hypocrites though.
LaGazelle Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 but how would this be a symptom of misandry? to me this sounds like internalized misogyny - women's hatred of themselves as a result of the inculcated femiphobia of society at large. Dobler, I was wondering the same thing as you, and I think your explanation is rather more appropriate, although I can see a link with misandry (see below). At least in my case, the thing I was most angry about was the way the OW seemed to hate women in general - including herself! I was really shocked by the language she used to describe herself and other women including her "best friend" whom she seemed to despise because men pursued her. I often see this in many OW who "celebrate" themselves as the "ugly" or "fat" girl who manages, or at least tries to steal a bit of the "hot" girl's action. I think a lot of this has to do with the way women are objectified. I meet so many women who think if they looked like me, their lives would be perfect. Some are catty and others just jokingly ask, what I put in my perfume. If only they thought about the way other women treat women "like me"! And besides, no matter how fabulous a woman looks, no one wakes up every day of their life feeling fabulous. Furthermore, as we age our "fabulousness" becomes less material. One could argue that the objectification of women, which is then internalised by even young girls, leaves some women who may feel they can't live up to the expectations and definitions of being "IT", with deepseated anger. This anger is both directed at other women who they feel "have what it takes" and at the men who they feel disregard them in favour of those women. Even for the woman who is "on the right side" of every man's fantasy, it can feel unpleasant to be objectified. What then for those who, rightly or wrongly, don't feel they are on the "right side" of that fantasy? I know you are likely to have a different opinion to me on what is appropriate behaviour for a woman in trying to form a relationship. We've touched on that - but please bear with me.... Partly because of the messages feminism and the misogynist agenda has fed us, women are now in a position where they have to do much of the active pursuing, otherwise they wait, for what seems like an interminable time for "the one". Many live in fear that if they don't match the fantasy, they won't ever win the prize. That makes many women angry and in my view a bit resentful of men, since they have to do all the man's hard work of pursuing (that's perhaps where misandry could come in). This, in addition to being resentful of other women who they feel, by virtue of being "on the right side of the fantasy" have won the prize without having to actively pursue. Sometimes the OW doesn't even have a clue how the wife looks, but based on the fact that the wife has "won the prize" she builds up a picture based on assumptions of what it takes to win the prize - a picture of a woman she resents, plus the rejection of the man who is highly unlikely to choose her as no. 1. I am not saying this is always the case, but it is a theme that I notice in in my observations and experience. It is sad, but we have a lot of social "advances" including (sadly) feminism to thank for this.
Trimmer Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 wow. twice in one night, wog, and in two different threads, you've made me throw up in my mouth. i'm a feminist and i am ALL about nature in general. please, i beg of you, don't start with the feminazi bs cause that don't hold water either. you're just going to end up looking like a cheesebag. seriously. this is said with love, believe it or not. Hmmm, you're relatively new around here, yes? dobler, meet woggle...
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