Gamine Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 My gut instinct says that this man has not made a decision to leave his wife. Otherwise, he would have. Spending the night weekly seems to imply that there are 'ties that bind' in this dynamic that he is unwilling to give up. I would bet anything that if his wife were to invite him back (yes, I do not think he left on his own accord) he'd go running home. I read on a website (dedicated to the OW) that only 10% of MM leave their wife for the OW and that of that number some still return 'home' even after the divorce. Ties that bind.
Author MistyK Posted June 10, 2009 Author Posted June 10, 2009 My gut instinct says that this man has not made a decision to leave his wife. Otherwise, he would have. Spending the night weekly seems to imply that there are 'ties that bind' in this dynamic that he is unwilling to give up. I would bet anything that if his wife were to invite him back (yes, I do not think he left on his own accord) he'd go running home. I read on a website (dedicated to the OW) that only 10% of MM leave their wife for the OW and that of that number some still return 'home' even after the divorce. Ties that bind. She has invited him back, many, many times. On Monday she was pleading with him to come home, that they could work it out if he would only give me up. He didn't reply, as usual. He seems to think it's mean to tell her what he claims is the truth about the future of his marriage - somehow he thinks it's ok to leave that door open for her. I don't want or expect him to be mean about it, but I do expect that he'll not keep leading her on because that's just crappy. And if in fact he's not leading her on, he's leading me on, and I'm not keen on that either. You know sometimes he even tells BW that I'm unhappy with being the OW and him spending so much time over there with her, as if to engender sympathy in her towards me. Insulting, really.
Author MistyK Posted June 10, 2009 Author Posted June 10, 2009 Gamine - I also tend to believe that stats you read, and I doubt it's even that high. Just today I saw a guy I know whose wife divorced him over his refusal to give up his girlfriend 6 years ago. Back in February, he moved back in with his wife and yet today, he was walking with his girlfriend in the mall, behind the wife's back yet again.
Author MistyK Posted June 10, 2009 Author Posted June 10, 2009 I guess I just wanted to believe, as many OW are tempted to do, that my MM was somehow different. One of my best friends went through a similar situation with someone somewhat less wishy-washy and so I guess I'd hoped my situation would end up as nicely as theirs did.
Author MistyK Posted June 10, 2009 Author Posted June 10, 2009 If you really want him for keeps, you must put your money where your mouth is. Now you must keep in mind that you could always lose your R. You just have to balance it this way: You could have what you have now which is practically nothing simply by doing nothing. But, you could take a risk and get what you want. Which brings me to this conclusion: look at this man's actions. Wishy-washy, indecisive, hurtful, inconsiderate. Is this the type of man you want to live the rest of your life with? You DO NOT want a MM who has not changed. If you cannot see the changes in his life, he will simply do the same to you ifhe ever does leave. GEL By taking a risk, you mean going to NC? I've had real difficulty sticking to that, any thoughts as to how to do that successfully? I get all emotional like I've just thrown away my soulmate and I can't make the NC stick. He is in therapy, which is probably the only reason he's made it this far. But I've noticed that he doesn't always tell his therapist the whole story (He's invited me to come with him a few times for couple's-type therapy.) Like he does with me, he also hopes for a medal for his accomplishments. The therapist has accused me of not being entirely acknowledging of his victories, but at the same time, the therapist has also told me over and over that I know MM best, and I probably ought to leave. The therapist does not think he'll go back to his wife. He has introduced me to his family. They all now about me, and interestingly, they seem to be rooting for our relationship rather than the marriage. With the notable exception of a clergy member in the extended family. But even he seems to sympathize with me. Again, is there really progress and effort here or do I deceive myself? I really feel in my gut it's the latter.
White Flower Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 If you feel in your gut it's the ladder then you need to treat yourself right in order to teach him how to treat you right. Yes, that means going NC until he can get it right. Don't settle for anything less. OTOH, if the counselor really feels he is not going back to his W AND there is the slight chance you happen to be a little skeptical in general (are you?) you could be misinterpreting what is really going on. You really need to sit and clarify all this in your mind before making a decision.
Author MistyK Posted June 11, 2009 Author Posted June 11, 2009 OTOH, if the counselor really feels he is not going back to his W AND there is the slight chance you happen to be a little skeptical in general (are you?) you could be misinterpreting what is really going on. You really need to sit and clarify all this in your mind before making a decision. I am a pessimist by nature. Everyone I've ever been close to has betrayed or screwed me over in one way or another, so I've come to expect it. I see abandonment in every corner. I know this about myself and I don't trust myself to make decisions, that's why I need help to figure out if I just need to chill out or if my problem is that I need to face reality. Tonight was to be the 1st night of the formal custody arrangement between MM and the W, but W claims she didn't have time to call her attorney back and wasn't aware of tonight's visit. I'm pretty sure she's dodging the attorney, or flatly lying, but the fact remains that the kids refused to go with him and since he is not inclined to force them, he is spending the entire night up at the W's house once again. So, until someone blinks, I can look forward to him continuing to spend every waking moment up there. WTF?
KikiW Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Why are you allowing this man to have such control over you? How can you think you are "throwing away your soulmate" when this "soulmate" treats you like this? Do soulmates really do this to each other? NO. THEY DON'T. Soulmates do whatever they need to in order to be together. Certainly, perhaps slowly, but there should never be any doubt about the course of action. There is no wavering. There is no wishy-washyness. There is no running "home". He is not your soulmate. He is a cake-eater. And you are letting him be one. because you are letting him treat you like a toy he can take out to play with and loves so much but when wife gets angry he puts you away for another day. Do you seriously want this man? WHY?
Mino Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 wow, he spends the night over there and thats ok with you? Thats not normal. Go read my thread, I went nc. Three weeks ago I had enough, My sm had moved out 11 months ago, i practically lived with him, maintaining my home on the side. He was with me EVERY night. The only conversation he had in the eveings was calling his child. Your ic didnt say nc for a certain time for him to ajust, heal,? Our ic said nc for 6 months. after he moved out into His place... We did not listen. Go read my thread " was almost there" . I thought I had it hard, but geez, reading your story makes mine look like an angel. I advise you to leave him alone. Give him the space and time he needs to sort out his life. NC.... I know its tough, but if there is anything I would change in my situation, that would be I wish I would have listened to IC and enforced the nc for 6 months. Maybe we would be in a different spot right now if we had listened. I can tell you the A was difficult, but dealing with the s and all that comes with it, was 100 times harder then the A itself. What an illusion it is to think all will be well AFTER he moves out. That is were it just starts to get tough. I know I ran into situations that I was not sure how to handle, ( none like Yours though) Let him walk the rest of the way on his own. And IF he makes it to the end of the road, and you still are in love, great, it was meant to be, if he doesnt make it, you didnt get crushed even more trying. Good luck...
Author MistyK Posted June 11, 2009 Author Posted June 11, 2009 Mino, I knew things during the seperation were going to be difficult, but I had no idea how difficult (in part because he hasn't REALLY seperated). I figured that things would fall into place as a natural consequence of him moving out. Boy was I wrong. I try to be underdstanding of his guilt and particular issues, but at some point, it feels like it doesn't matter. I can be as understanding as I want, but my needs still aren't being met and I'm not confident they ever will with someone who can't cut the cord. He keeps pleading with me to be patient, but it feels like he wants me to "understand" his issues, but won't similarly "understand" my need to feel safe in the relationship. He sends me things like this which suck me in all over again: I think of you all the time. I feel so troubled when I experience your frustration with me. I am sorry with how ploddingly slow I am moving towards normalizing our relationship. I struggle mightily with confronting the "failure" of that 18 year relationship. I know you want me to see that it has already "failed" and so there is no point in delaying that which has already occurred, but I still feel (even if it is an illusion) that I need to ease myself and especially the kids into the reality of a divorced family. Please understand and try to be patient with me. I love you so very much. He said recently that I'm being unreasonable by asking him to "speed it up" - which for me just really means cut the cord with the W, for all our sakes. I know I have to go NC, but how do I do it and stick to it without feeling like I abandoned him when he needed me the most? And how do I get past this feeling that I'm throwing away my one and only?
Author MistyK Posted June 11, 2009 Author Posted June 11, 2009 He finally told me last night that he can't give me what I need, not right now anyway. He knows that he has been destroying our relationship (with all the yo-yo and glacical slowness) and yet can't stop himself because he wouldn't be able to live with the guilt/identity crisis, etc over ending his marriage. I told him it's been way too long for him to expect me to still be ok with any of this and so we're at an impasse and he won't budge. The writing is on the wall, yet I can't accept it. I'm losing it. I'm at work, crying yet again. I know I have to get away from him for my own sanity, but I feel so alone. I have no family within 300 miles and even my two best friends live an hour away from me. It feels like he's all I had. My safety net is gone.
Je Ne Regrette Rien Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 MistyK, Its rare that I comment on these forums anymore but your story struck a chord and I thought you might like to hear from someone who has been through something very similar to you. My MM was extremely similar. If I had a pound for every medal he wanted for tiny "movements" across the years, I'd be a millionaire by now. Unfortunately my MM had children and a W who was very similar - who one minute would scream the street down, knock him over with her car, bite him, the list is endless. Then the next day she would be desperate, the next positive, the next loving. At the time, I thought she was crazy but I eventually came to learn that her behaviour was a direct result of his complete inability to firmly tell her their marriage was over. I was a passenger through all of this, watching my life fall around my ears, waiting for my turn to be number one in his life. It didnt come until I finally decided I had enough. He was going through immense guilt about leaving his children leaving his wife, worrying about new men walking into their lives, losing his status as loyal family man, he was in a complete breakdown mode. I told him to go home and I moved on. He *thinks* I moved on, but believe me, it was a painful process whereby I had to look in the mirror everyday and answer difficult questions to myself like "Why would I allow myself to be treat like that?" "Why did I want to get into an affair anyway?" "Was it really love?". I was heartbroken, but to be honest, it was less painful than living in the nightmare that I was. I had made so many concessions for him because I loved him. But they were at the detriment of myself. It knocks away slowly at your confidence, your self respect, your dignity. He tried his best to repair his marriage. It took two months for him and his wife to decide their marriage was over. Since he'd taken me out of the picture, it seemed like he was able to end the marriage because of the problems that were always there, not *only and singularly* because he had had an affair. He tried to relight our relationship and eventually I decided to go for it because his actions were at last counting for more than his words. We've been together, "properly" now for nearly two years, we bought a house together, divorce is through, wife is happy with another partner. The unbelievably hardest thing to deal with is that his children were affected so badly. Wife continues to use her children as vehicles to display her anger and pain and will continue to do so. She believes the children have a right to know who ended the marriage because of their actions although I think that she may dismiss her part in the problems before our affair started. Its horrible, I know and I feel for you. Its hard to discuss generally because you love this person and only you know what to best do for YOU. You can endure this situation, but the one thing that used to get to me was that he would lose all respect for me for being a doormat and playing the waiting game I so hated because of my love for him. It had to end somewhere. We're really happy now and it can happen. But the odds are probably low. Give yourself a deadline and a list of what you want from this. He does not need to be party to this deadline or list - you need to focus on you. Once you've got it - stick to it. Then you can always count on your respect for yourself. When I look back, I'm always sort of proud that I finally stood up and said "enough". Try and get some time to think at least, and try your best to get your support - even if you have to travel to see them. I couldnt have got through it without my friends and if anything, one of the wonderful things i realised through it was what a wonderfully supportive network of family and friends I had. Good luck
Author MistyK Posted June 11, 2009 Author Posted June 11, 2009 MistyK, Unfortunately my MM had children and a W who was very similar - who one minute would scream the street down, knock him over with her car, bite him, the list is endless. Then the next day she would be desperate, the next positive, the next loving. At the time, I thought she was crazy but I eventually came to learn that her behaviour was a direct result of his complete inability to firmly tell her their marriage was over. This is exactly my situation. W hits him - I've seen the scratch marks on his face, etc. and emotionally entangles the children, much to their detriment, simply because they are there. Truly I can't blame her for acting so biploar with him (lovey-dovey one minute, I hate you bastard the next) because he's sending her mixed signals. I was a passenger through all of this, watching my life fall around my ears, waiting for my turn to be number one in his life. It didnt come until I finally decided I had enough. He was going through immense guilt about leaving his children leaving his wife, worrying about new men walking into their lives, losing his status as loyal family man, he was in a complete breakdown mode. I told him to go home and I moved on. I've made similar statements to him for a long time, but the problem is I never stick with the NC. I don't think he'll go home to the W, but he is obviously not willing to let her go, or at least not take me along for his yo-yo ride. MM is a Catholic and is determined that God hates him. W has told the children he's going to hell for having an A and not moving back "home". He still feels like he has to take care of his uber-dependent wife and I'm concerned he'll never be able to shake that. The unbelievably hardest thing to deal with is that his children were affected so badly. Wife continues to use her children as vehicles to display her anger and pain and will continue to do so. She believes the children have a right to know who ended the marriage because of their actions although I think that she may dismiss her part in the problems before our affair started. The W in this scenario completely and totally denies any role in the failure of the marriage whatsoever and has decided that i am nothing short of Satan. She has actually convinced herslef that there were no problems until he met me, even 4 years before the affair. Having seen some dated passive aggressive notes between them, I know their problems date back WAY before me. He said it started the 1st year of marriage. The W insists on making sure the kids know Daddy cheated with the redhead whore down the street. She doesn't seem to realize or care that it only hurts the kids because she's so wrapped up in her own hurt. Its horrible, I know and I feel for you. Its hard to discuss generally because you love this person and only you know what to best do for YOU. You can endure this situation, but the one thing that used to get to me was that he would lose all respect for me for being a doormat and playing the waiting game I so hated because of my love for him. It had to end somewhere. We're really happy now and it can happen. But the odds are probably low. Give yourself a deadline and a list of what you want from this. He does not need to be party to this deadline or list - you need to focus on you. Once you've got it - stick to it. Then you can always count on your respect for yourself. When I look back, I'm always sort of proud that I finally stood up and said "enough". Good luck I worry that I enbale the situation and cause him to lose respect for me too. I guess I am just afraid to take the risk that NC brings - that he won't come looking for me when he has his act together. Maybe I'm not so great afterall, you know. I think the time really has to be now. It's been so long and my distraction with his drama is messing up my ability to work and focus on my kids like I should (the proof: I sit here at work typing this). Thank you so much for your thoughts, it's helpful to not feel so alone. I suppose it gives me a little hope that i can make it through but I don't want to delude myself that he will get it together. I know that i have to move on for my own sake. Again, thank you soooooo much.
norajane Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 She has invited him back, many, many times. On Monday she was pleading with him to come home, that they could work it out if he would only give me up. He didn't reply, as usual. He seems to think it's mean to tell her what he claims is the truth about the future of his marriage - somehow he thinks it's ok to leave that door open for her. I don't want or expect him to be mean about it, but I do expect that he'll not keep leading her on because that's just crappy. And if in fact he's not leading her on, he's leading me on, and I'm not keen on that either. You know sometimes he even tells BW that I'm unhappy with being the OW and him spending so much time over there with her, as if to engender sympathy in her towards me. Insulting, really. You really need to take a look at how he's treating his wife through this. Because that's how he will treat you one day, if not already. It actually sounds like he's treating both of you like crap. You have not said one single thing in this thread that shows he is the kind of man a woman would be happy to be with. He sounds like an emotionally abusive ass. Why do you want him so much?
Author MistyK Posted June 11, 2009 Author Posted June 11, 2009 You really need to take a look at how he's treating his wife through this. Because that's how he will treat you one day, if not already. It actually sounds like he's treating both of you like crap. You have not said one single thing in this thread that shows he is the kind of man a woman would be happy to be with. He sounds like an emotionally abusive ass. Why do you want him so much? He's handled this whole situation badly, but I think it's the result of being emotionally crippled more than any maliciousness. Sometime in January (I think), after his wife knew of the affair for at least 6 months but nothing of his promises to me to move out, she told him they were going to meet a family member and then when they missed the turn he asked where she was taking him. She apparently planned a "getaway" weekend for the two of them at the beach and he was supposedly mad about being duped and "kidnapped". Still, as always, he decided to split the baby - he stayed only one night there with her, supposedly no sex, and insisted on going home a day early. Obviously the result left us both upset - me because he went at all, and the W because he only stayed one night. It's part of his nonsense attempts to please everyone. You've heard a lot of the bad stuff, but obviously there's been good times too, but they've been far less often. He makes me feel special when we are together. He always tells me I'm beautiful and looks at me as if he's always in awe of me. He takes me places and saved me from financial meltdown during my divorce. He has written me incredibly loving emails and there are times he is content to ignore the W's phone calls when we are together. We enjoy many of the same things and ultimately want the same things out of life (during conversations, obviously his actions suggest otherwise). Unlike my ex-husband, MM's well-educated and we have an intellectual connnection I've never had with anyone before. He is forever talking about being soul-mates, that he wants to spend his life with me - it all sounds sincere when he says it. All the nights when I don't have my kids, I spend with him over at his house. We snuggle and do domestic things (though often it's late before he ever gets home because he spends all his time over at the W's house). I bought all the household stuff for his new house because he was trying to hide the moving process from his family. I've generally done all his laundry, cleaned, etc at both our houses. And that's because he spends so muchtime at the W's that he doesn't have anytime left for his own house. Obviously I defeated myself, so I stopped doing all that. I have a hard enough time working full-time, taking care of my kids and dealing with my own house. Anyway, it felt like I was pretending to be his wife, while he spends all his time with his real wife (who is supposedly in another room or elsewhere while he's there with the kids. ) I digress....
Je Ne Regrette Rien Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 MistyK, This forum was a lot of support to me during the affair, even the comments I didn't really waqnt to hear eventually got through my skull and asked me to question lots of deeper things. I'm glad I can be of help. If you want to discuss further feel free to PM me anytime JNRR
norajane Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 You've heard a lot of the bad stuff, but obviously there's been good times too, but they've been far less often. He makes me feel special when we are together. He always tells me I'm beautiful and looks at me as if he's always in awe of me. He takes me places and saved me from financial meltdown during my divorce. He has written me incredibly loving emails and there are times he is content to ignore the W's phone calls when we are together. We enjoy many of the same things and ultimately want the same things out of life (during conversations, obviously his actions suggest otherwise). Unlike my ex-husband, MM's well-educated and we have an intellectual connnection I've never had with anyone before. He is forever talking about being soul-mates, that he wants to spend his life with me - it all sounds sincere when he says it. All the nights when I don't have my kids, I spend with him over at his house. We snuggle and do domestic things (though often it's late before he ever gets home because he spends all his time over at the W's house). Is that enough for you? You can have most of those things (except for saving you from financial ruin during your divorce) with someone else. So why hold on to a guy who is holding on to his marriage when the bad outweighs the good? Is it him that's so important, or having someone in your life you can be with and who can be with you without reservations?
torranceshipman Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 He sounds like a very cruel, or selfish man (and a very good liar). You went out and got all of his home stuff and did all of his housework (while he went home to another woman!!!), and even sat there while he had deep conversations with his wife in FRONT of you. And he seems comfortable with putting you through that. He's used you for a lot of stuff and you have nothing in return - not even the respect that he will tell you the truth. That story about being 'kidnapped' and only realising when 'she missed the turn' sounds ridiculous. Clearly, they had a romantic weekend planned, and he is an accomplished liar and made up a rather improbable story to appease you. If he didnt want to go on that weekend away he'd simply have asked her to stop the car, got out and found alternative transport home. Tbh it's even a pretty lame excuse but I suppose its more that you WANT to believe him, so the excuse doesn't even have to be great! Clearly there is quite a lot going on between them still, and from the sounds of it he is actively trying to reconcile with her. She's probably the one stalling as he is such a dirtbag and she's seen some of his true colors. Whatever he feels for you (AND his wife, by the sounds of it) doesn't seem to be love. Love for himself, maybe! Or if it is love, he is one of those guys that doesn't think that feelings of love have to be complemented in ANY way by respect towards the loved one. Maybe the whole situation has made your self esteem v.low so no wonder you are crying so much - this situation sounds like slow torture. I know it's easier said than done but you need to leave him for good, as you've given him SO many chances and he's blown them all, he's disrespected you consistently, he's disrespected his wife consistently....really, what is worth hanging on for here? I'm not bashing you btw - I'd love to see you out of this awful situation and the good thing about this forum is that a lot of people tell you how it is, as they've been through it and can't stand seeing the exact same lies dragging someone else down. Really, I don't think a month is sufficient - you need a lifetime away from this guy. I think if he desperately tries to win you back it is a huge ego issue for him - 'how dare she dump me'!-remember that and every time, tell him no as the purpose of your life is not to appease some guys' ego...(unless he at least gets divorced and indicates that he'll act with integrity for a change, and even then you have to consider his terrible track record!). Lots of luck-I hope you get through this!!
GreenEyedLady Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 By taking a risk, you mean going to NC? I've had real difficulty sticking to that, any thoughts as to how to do that successfully? I get all emotional like I've just thrown away my soulmate and I can't make the NC stick. Again, is there really progress and effort here or do I deceive myself? I really feel in my gut it's the latter. Taking a risk means making a choice: you get all or nothing. That means the R ends if he stays married. This is how I did it: He was acting weird and I hadn't heard from him in a couple of days which was unacceptable to me and not normal for us anyways. I guess his brother was at his house and he basically said to me that how was he supposed to talk to me with him there. I told him that was his problem, not mine and I asked what his intentions were. He said that he couldn't leave by the first of the year, which was when he'd said he would. So I promptly told him that we were through, nice knowing you, call me if you ever get divorced and I haven't married someone else. (Now secretly I was devastated, but I played it off real good.) Of course, there was LC and back and forth drama about him giving me back my key, etc. Then he came down one day and I basically let him have it (told him everything I felt and what I thought about what he was doing) and he KNEW that this was it. I told him that I wasn't going to be with a married man any longer. And he and I made the plans for the transition and he left a little after the first of the year but had had the "split" discussion first. They mostly had to get the house ready to rent out and find housing arrangements. (He moved in with me.) The divorce was filed within a month after that and was final in 6 months. Now that is progress. It's hard, it's a risk, but we had been together for over two years and I was going to get the relationship that I wanted. A committed relationship with a man that I could be proud of. It was scary to know that he might stay where he was, but I needed to see him fight for "us" if he really loved me as much as he said he did. And you know what, he loves me. He really put me first. He cared about MY feelings. He never made me feel insecure or hurt me in any way. And I went through his whole divorce with him. He didn't do any wishy-washy stuff. That's why when I read about wishy-washy men who leave, I feel for their OW. Because it means there will probably be back and forth and that is devastating to both parties. It means that they're not sure enough to take the risk. And it means that they are going to keep hurting everyone until they can decide what they should do. You also need to realize that he needs this constant pat on the back for the most minimal things, and you need to decide if you can do that everyday for the rest of your life. Love shouldn't be about feeling bad most of the time. Love is hard sometimes, but it should be about the both of you getting through it together. Love doesn't choose another above you. I guess that's really the bottom line. GEL
fooled once Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Didn't you post that he made his decision - that for now, he choses his wife? what else is there for you to do/say? He chose her.
Author MistyK Posted June 17, 2009 Author Posted June 17, 2009 Hello and welcome. I'm kinda tired but wanted to write before I signed off. So just a couple Venting aside, you should RUN to the bookstore for a copy of "Surviving Your Boyfriend's Divorce" by Robyn Todd. Keep in mind that the book isn't about affairs. It's about dating a separated man. Obviously, it's for OW's too but doesn't get into the trust issues we have, since we already know our mate can lie like a rug when he wants to. The book came in the mail yesterday and so far so good. Thanks for the suggestion!
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