reconcilliation? how goes it?

[schewter]

"i perceived him as punitively withholding and cruel and he perceived me as nagging and intrusive."

 

My wife and I to a T...I resented her because she was a constant reminder of all I had done throughout the years to hurt her. It's like when someone owes you money and they're dodging you then they start looking at you like you somehow wronged them. Crazy stuff this whole love thing.

[boldjack]

You need to not beat yourself up about it , so much.

[schewter]

You need to not beat yourself up about it , so much.

Thanks man...I'll get there.

[dobler33]

boldjack, i believe that the wilting carrots in my refridgerator are 1,000 times smarter than sarah palin, but that's beside the point. best of luck to your girl.

 

schewter, that is a truly insightful observation. we tend to put a lot of blame on the people we hurt, hate the weakness in them that allows us to hurt them. in psychoanalytic terminology this is called "projective identification" - we take some quality about ourselves that we can't bear to know about, like weakness or neediness, and project it into and onto someone else, where we can control and defend against it. it's some serious sh*t, and we all do it to some extent. when you have two people doing it to each other it gets downright surreal and it's almost impossible to realign your perceptions to remember that the other person is not the monster you have made of them. to fall back on a sappy cliche, recognizing it is the first step. hopefully she will be able to do the same, to recognize the way she dances this dance with you. is she getting any kind of therapuetic support? are you? if not i highly recommend it. this stuff is coming from deeply, deeply unconcious places, from early childhood and even infancy places, and to think you can wrestle it all by yourselves with no outside perspective is placing WAY too much pressure on you both. of course, i'm clearly professionally biased.

[schewter]

boldjack, i believe that the wilting carrots in my refridgerator are 1,000 times smarter than sarah palin, but that's beside the point. best of luck to your girl.

 

schewter, that is a truly insightful observation. we tend to put a lot of blame on the people we hurt, hate the weakness in them that allows us to hurt them. in psychoanalytic terminology this is called "projective identification" - we take some quality about ourselves that we can't bear to know about, like weakness or neediness, and project it into and onto someone else, where we can control and defend against it. it's some serious sh*t, and we all do it to some extent. when you have two people doing it to each other it gets downright surreal and it's almost impossible to realign your perceptions to remember that the other person is not the monster you have made of them. to fall back on a sappy cliche, recognizing it is the first step. hopefully she will be able to do the same, to recognize the way she dances this dance with you. is she getting any kind of therapuetic support? are you? if not i highly recommend it. this stuff is coming from deeply, deeply unconcious places, from early childhood and even infancy places, and to think you can wrestle it all by yourselves with no outside perspective is placing WAY too much pressure on you both. of course, i'm clearly professionally biased.

 

My wife and I see a psychologist strait out of the 60s-70s which works just fine since we are both in our fortys so the pop culture is right. I was seeing her myself initially when I was just emotionally breaking down under the weight of dysfunctional marriage, professional burnout, addiction withdrawal, etc...before I knew of the EA...this was how I spent my summer last year (thank God I'm not in school...that'd be a hell of an essay!) My wife is actually quite quiet and shy...doesn't open up well...that's her nature...I don't think this thing would have gotten off the ground if it wasn't pretty much restricted to phone and Email...she blushes easy. Me, I'm wide open...youngest of nine from a three bdrm house; I have no expectation of privacy...'sides, I think we humans are all flawed to hell anyway so why the need for all the secrecy...no one's going through anything that many haven't been through before.

[dobler33]

that's great, schewter. and i don't knock those 60's/70's style analysts - i'm a freudian myself. my theoretical orientation is far closer to those guys than to anything that's going on in mental health today. sounds like you've had a really rough go of it lately, even before the A. i would hazzard a guess that this might be a big part of what pulled you guys apart - sometimes when we're going through something that gnarly we have a tendancy to try and protect our partners from the gore, and in doing so we end up icing them out. and perhaps she was unable to deal with the severity of what you were going through and didn't know how to show support. i'm just throwing out ideas here and have no clue as to the actual day-to-day dynamics, but i do know that the way we do or do not ask for help, how we do or do not receive that request has a lot of impact on the health of a marriage. sometimes in the interest of trying to take care of ourselves we forget how to be taken care of by our partners; and it's vitally important to be able to take care of and be taken care of by our partners in a healthy interdependant way. (note the use of interdependant, not codependant. we get these things confused a lot.)

 

wow. i have to tell you that just now as i was writing this and before he left the house my husband broke down in tears and told me that he was really worried about this upcoming tour, that he was really afraid i would change my mind about wanting to stay while he was gone. because he showed me his fear and worry and mistrust i was able to address it and take responsibility for instilling it in him, to cry with him and tell him i love him and that i'm not going anywhere, to once again ask him what he needs from me in order to heal from this. perhaps your wife needs to know that you are afraid and distrustful and scared of losing her. do you think she does?

[Owl]

...to once again ask him what he needs from me in order to heal from this.

 

This is GREAT!!! Many WS's take a lot of "lumps" to get to this point.

 

If you don't mind a suggestion...

 

...go pick up a book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr Harley.

 

It's primarily written for the BS, but the bottomline is that it can give you a ton of insight on exactly what you asked your H for...an understanding of what he needs (and what you need) in order to heal from this. And that means healing your husband, your marriage, and yourself.

[schewter]

that's great, schewter. and i don't knock those 60's/70's style analysts - i'm a freudian myself. my theoretical orientation is far closer to those guys than to anything that's going on in mental health today. sounds like you've had a really rough go of it lately, even before the A. i would hazzard a guess that this might be a big part of what pulled you guys apart - sometimes when we're going through something that gnarly we have a tendancy to try and protect our partners from the gore, and in doing so we end up icing them out. and perhaps she was unable to deal with the severity of what you were going through and didn't know how to show support. i'm just throwing out ideas here and have no clue as to the actual day-to-day dynamics, but i do know that the way we do or do not ask for help, how we do or do not receive that request has a lot of impact on the health of a marriage. sometimes in the interest of trying to take care of ourselves we forget how to be taken care of by our partners; and it's vitally important to be able to take care of and be taken care of by our partners in a healthy interdependant way. (note the use of interdependant, not codependant. we get these things confused a lot.)

 

wow. i have to tell you that just now as i was writing this and before he left the house my husband broke down in tears and told me that he was really worried about this upcoming tour, that he was really afraid i would change my mind about wanting to stay while he was gone. because he showed me his fear and worry and mistrust i was able to address it and take responsibility for instilling it in him, to cry with him and tell him i love him and that i'm not going anywhere, to once again ask him what he needs from me in order to heal from this. perhaps your wife needs to know that you are afraid and distrustful and scared of losing her. do you think she does?

 

Tour?? Military? Musician?

My wife knows those things and then some...I am "strange man wary" and I feel like the ground beneath my feet is still in flux. Despite all the reassurances that she gives and the things she has given up I still have a feeling of impending doom...like I'm waitin' for the other shoe to fall. My imagination and time alone are my greatest enemies presently...oddly, they use to be my best friends, but now I obsess over hairs already split to the atom. She still works where she worked when the thing happened so it is a constant reminder...going back to MC next week to see if we can find any more middle ground to deal with this hurdle.

[Snowflower]

Tour?? Military? Musician?

My wife knows those things and then some...I am "strange man wary" and I feel like the ground beneath my feet is still in flux. Despite all the reassurances that she gives and the things she has given up I still have a feeling of impending doom...like I'm waitin' for the other shoe to fall. My imagination and time alone are my greatest enemies presently...oddly, they use to be my best friends, but now I obsess over hairs already split to the atom. She still works where she worked when the thing happened so it is a constant reminder...going back to MC next week to see if we can find any more middle ground to deal with this hurdle.

 

 

I get what you're saying here, schewter. I go through the same thing myself. I think it is part of the healing process. I can't remember, how long has it been since d-day for you and your wife? It does get easier, but it will take awhile.

 

I know what you mean about the reminder of working at the place-my H still works for the same company and it is a constant reminder. I know the advice is for the WS to quit their jobs when the A happens at work. My H offered to quit after we reconciled, but I know he would have had a lot of difficulty finding another job in this economy. It was a choice we made together for him to remain in his job for the time being. Fortunately, the OW doesn't work anywhere near him-just for the same company. I worry sometimes, but honestly, if he wanted to break NC-it wouldn't matter if he was working at the same company or not. He could still contact her (and she could contact him) if he wanted this to happen.

 

It will get easier, just take it one day at a time! Perhaps your MC will have some useful suggestions.

[schewter]

I get what you're saying here, schewter. I go through the same thing myself. I think it is part of the healing process. I can't remember, how long has it been since d-day for you and your wife? It does get easier, but it will take awhile.

 

I know what you mean about the reminder of working at the place-my H still works for the same company and it is a constant reminder. I know the advice is for the WS to quit their jobs when the A happens at work. My H offered to quit after we reconciled, but I know he would have had a lot of difficulty finding another job in this economy. It was a choice we made together for him to remain in his job for the time being. Fortunately, the OW doesn't work anywhere near him-just for the same company. I worry sometimes, but honestly, if he wanted to break NC-it wouldn't matter if he was working at the same company or not. He could still contact her (and she could contact him) if he wanted this to happen.

 

It will get easier, just take it one day at a time! Perhaps your MC will have some useful suggestions.

 

Wife actually did break NC...I kind of predicted how it would happen...OM is out of town and deals with another sales person at W`s company. Other sale`s person told OM when she was taking a few days off over Xmas to deal W wife if he needed anything...no reason to even mention this to W since she had no knowledge of what had gone on so he of course took full advantage and called W that afternoon to `make sure it was okay`. My wife dropped the ball here and was nice to him...spoke to him three more times between Xmas and February. She told me in early March voluntarily (didn`t have to) because she felt so guilty about it and really wanted to have things clean. Y`know, I totally understand it in a way...the guy was an ass and she knew he`d lied and was more or less playing her in the beginning but part of her wanted to still think he was a good guy cause if he isn`t then she looks like a fool...female pride thing I think. As a woman what do ya thinkÉ (É= question mark...don`t know why) This second breech has been a setback and we are trying to work through it...she swears up and down that if he is ever on the other end of the phone again she will tell him she can`t talk to him and call me immediately. D-day for us was in mid-September last year.

[schewter]

And yeah...the economy here aint so great either...poor finances can put a pretty heavy strain on a marriage too. W tried to leave...3 interviews...employer`s market right now. She says she`ll leave if and when economy picks up...maybe I`ll feel secure enough by then that it won`t matter so much.

[dobler33]

Tour?? Military? Musician?

QUOTE]

 

musician. the band is really huge in europe and south america, so he's on the road most of the time. hence all the absence.

[dobler33]

so, things have been going really, really well. H and i have had several really honest and heartfelt conversations in which we expressed our desire to work it out and how scary it was to almost lose each other. yesterday was one of these, both of us crying and ending up slow dancing in the living room to cheesy motown ballads. today definitely feels like a bump in the road - H is again miserable and anxious and angry, as well he should be. i recognize that there will be days that feel really hopeful and days that don't. any advice on how best to address the bad days? right now i'm giving him his space, as this seems to be what he wants; my attempts to talk and reach out did not appear to be the right thing. he expressed that he felt "coddled" by my trying to be understanding and comforting. please know that i'm not asking for a way to mollify his anger, nor am i discomfitted by his anger. i mean, duh, right? i'm just hoping someone who's been through this from his point of view can offer a little illumination on what might be the best way for me to be on days like today. is space the right thing?

[jwi71]

Thanks for sharing Dobler.

 

Let me ask another question if I may.

 

Was your H's behavior radically different before your A or was that the "norm"?

[schewter]

I can't really help you Dobler but I can most certainly relate. W and I have been going at it pretty heavy the last couple of days. I guess I got the ball rolling as per usual when I asked her if she believed that NC was right and important. Basically, saying I don't want you to do it just cause I say so but because YOU YOURSELF see it that way...lookin' for reassurance as much as anything. When she answered somewhat ambiguously then it was two hours of driving around rehashing the EA and everything else each of us could come up with to throw at the other. Today I am at work and conversation has been strained on the phone...shell shocked and not feeling too optimistic...wish I could just STOP.

[dobler33]

I can't really help you Dobler but I can most certainly relate. W and I have been going at it pretty heavy the last couple of days. I guess I got the ball rolling as per usual when I asked her if she believed that NC was right and important. Basically, saying I don't want you to do it just cause I say so but because YOU YOURSELF see it that way...lookin' for reassurance as much as anything. When she answered somewhat ambiguously then it was two hours of driving around rehashing the EA and everything else each of us could come up with to throw at the other. Today I am at work and conversation has been strained on the phone...shell shocked and not feeling too optimistic...wish I could just STOP.

 

oh, lovey, i'm sorry. NC IS right and important. you have every right to ask for that. my H and i just got done with a really rough but good conversation, and if it helps at all, the best thing about it was that we were both feeling strong enough to be unguarded and honest about our feelings, the flattering ones and the unflattering ones alike. it took some time and tears but was worth it and we made some healthy agreements that i think will be worth it in the long run. i hope for the same for you both. remember though that what you're asking for isn't crazy, and that when she grounds herself and remembers what she wants she'll agree. much much much love to you both.

 

JW, that was definitely the norm before the A. as a matter of fact his mood and ability to communicate with me has improved hugely on the whole since the A, as has my ability to communicate with him.

[anne1707]

Dobler

 

I must admit I have not read this thread in full so if I have missed this then I am sorry.

 

However I have to ask - are you truly committed to making your marriage work? Are you sorry for what you have done - not because it has all come out or you have lost your OM but because you have hurt your H? Do you believe that it is YOU who is at fault in your marriage because you have had an affair? Do you believe that both you and your H need to work together at your marriage? Not just him changing for you - you have to change too.

 

It's just I don't really get a sense of this. Not in the posts I have seen here and especially not when I see you posting in the OW forum about how you are missing your OM.

 

I should add to clarify my position - I had an affair which my H found out about almost a year ago now. I came to LS with my head in a complete mess. However when I got through those initial weeks and started to concentrate on my marriage, that is what I concentrated on. I did not come on here to bemoan the fact that I was missing the ex-OM. My H is now a regular poster on LS. This came about because I showed him my threads on LS. It was extremely painful for him, especially when he could see how emotional I was about the ex-OM at first, but it was important for him to see that I was working through that fog (to put it politely) back to him and our marriage. Could you let your H see all your threads - inlcuding those in the OW forum?

 

If your really want to reconcile it can be done but it is extremely hard work and you need to be absolutely committed to that and to stop feeling so sorry for yourself and pining for something that is over. The affair was just an affair. It was not real life. It was not real emotion. You will see this if you take a proper look at your situation.

[jwi71]

JW, that was definitely the norm before the A. as a matter of fact his mood and ability to communicate with me has improved hugely on the whole since the A, as has my ability to communicate with him.

 

Which leads me to this:

 

What changed in YOU?

 

You have continually spoken in this thread and others how HE failed you. Except he was ALWAYS like this. His behavior DIDN'T change and should not be surprising...in fact, given what you have shared...its to be expected. In fact, he was acting normally (for him and his established patterns). So what changed? Why cheat?

 

This has NOTHING to do with him per the above...can you answer in terms not preceded by how he failed you...

[dobler33]

Dobler

 

I must admit I have not read this thread in full so if I have missed this then I am sorry.

 

However I have to ask - are you truly committed to making your marriage work? Are you sorry for what you have done - not because it has all come out or you have lost your OM but because you have hurt your H? Do you believe that it is YOU who is at fault in your marriage because you have had an affair? Do you believe that both you and your H need to work together at your marriage? Not just him changing for you - you have to change too.

 

It's just I don't really get a sense of this. Not in the posts I have seen here and especially not when I see you posting in the OW forum about how you are missing your OM.

 

I should add to clarify my position - I had an affair which my H found out about almost a year ago now. I came to LS with my head in a complete mess. However when I got through those initial weeks and started to concentrate on my marriage, that is what I concentrated on. I did not come on here to bemoan the fact that I was missing the ex-OM. My H is now a regular poster on LS. This came about because I showed him my threads on LS. It was extremely painful for him, especially when he could see how emotional I was about the ex-OM at first, but it was important for him to see that I was working through that fog (to put it politely) back to him and our marriage. Could you let your H see all your threads - inlcuding those in the OW forum?

 

If your really want to reconcile it can be done but it is extremely hard work and you need to be absolutely committed to that and to stop feeling so sorry for yourself and pining for something that is over. The affair was just an affair. It was not real life. It was not real emotion. You will see this if you take a proper look at your situation.

 

 

thanks for posting. i think that in previous posts i talk a lot about being truly sorry and really wanting to work things through w my husband. feel free to go back and read them.

 

as for my lingering feelings for the OM, i'm talking about them on the other forum mainly as a way of getting rid of them. i have no desire to feel that way anymore. the OM hurt me in a way that'll take a long time to get over. but then again i hurt my H in a way that'll take a long time to get over. it's all taking place at the same time, which is of course messy.

 

my H knows that these lingering feelings exist. he knows that i am willing to talk about whatever he needs to ask me about, but he so far seems not to want to hear it; he has said that he doesn't want to hear anything that he'll never be able to get out of his head. i have to respect that. he knows that i am posting here on LS and feels, as i do, that it's my space to say what i need to say and get support. if he asks to see them, i will of course give him access.

 

JW, once again i think i've answered this a few times, although i'll happily do so again. in fact this was a big part of our conversation last night and so i suppose it's a relevant update. what changed in me was that i had gotten so angry at my H and hopeless that he would ever change that i wasn't watching the red flags pop up as i became closer and closer friends with the OM, such that by the time he confessed that he was in love with me i had already let down all my boundaries and was totally willing to confess right back. it's a change that happened over a long time, a couple of years of things getting worse and worse, and i wasn't fully aware of how far that change had gone until i realised that i was ready to leave him for this other person. i grew callous and disillusioned in order to cope with the constant hurt of rejection, and i got so good at convincing myself i wasn't lonely and unhappy that i was wide open for somebody to come and make me feel wanted and desired, make me feel not lonely anymore. that's what changed.

 

it's funny to me that you are continually disbelieving how much of the environment in which the affair took place has any bearing in how i'm thinking about it now and how we're recovering, when it is my husband who has over and over told me that he doesn't blame me for falling for someone else because of his unhappiness and withholding. last night, when we were finally talking and brainstorming about possible strategies, i kept putting it out there that i understood how angry he must be and that i wanted to make sure he had all the room he needed to express that anger, that i would hear it willingly and deal with it and not be scared away by it. finally he said, "you know kitty (he calls me kitty:love:), i'm not as angry with you as you think. if i had been the model husband, if i had been fulfilling my duties and living up to the vows i made you, i would be angry. but i wasn't and i didn't, and so i really fault you a lot less than you'd expect. i'm glad you've given me the chance to do better from now on." i am refusing to be let off the hook and will continue to make myself available for whatever kind of atonement is necessary, but he seems a lot less mad at me than you are, JW.

[anne1707]

thanks for posting. i think that in previous posts i talk a lot about being truly sorry and really wanting to work things through w my husband. feel free to go back and read them.

 

as for my lingering feelings for the OM, i'm talking about them on the other forum mainly as a way of getting rid of them. i have no desire to feel that way anymore. the OM hurt me in a way that'll take a long time to get over. but then again i hurt my H in a way that'll take a long time to get over. it's all taking place at the same time, which is of course messy.

 

my H knows that these lingering feelings exist. he knows that i am willing to talk about whatever he needs to ask me about, but he so far seems not to want to hear it; he has said that he doesn't want to hear anything that he'll never be able to get out of his head. i have to respect that. he knows that i am posting here on LS and feels, as i do, that it's my space to say what i need to say and get support. if he asks to see them, i will of course give him access.

 

I can accept all that - as I said I had not read your thread in full but was confused as your posts in the OW forum almost tell another story. But I do understand that you are also recovering from what happened between you and the ex-OM (and when you start writing ex-OM instead of OM you know that you are making progress ).

 

In my case, recovery has not been helped as I work with the ex-OM and see him every day (even worse for my H but he knows I am looking for another job). We have done MC and I have also gone through IC. The IC helped to an extent and was focussed on recovery of the marriage but it was also providing a means of dealing with how I felt about the ex-OM. However when the IC stopped and I was no longer talking about how I felt then I actually realised that those feelings were nowhere near as strong as I thought they were. The repeated talk about how he had made me felt etc was just keeping something alive when it was ready to be buried. Please be careful that you don't do the same - it's almost like picking away at a scab so it never really heals. Not the nicest simile but in some ways accurate.

 

So here I am working with the ex-OM who has just got engaged to another poor victim and I can honestly say that I am so relieved that I am not with him as I can now see that for him an affair was a way of having another relationship that would never work out (he is twice divorced, has lived with another woman and this new relationship is one where you can see it all falling apart in another year or so - long story, not sour grapes and not for here). I also know that inspite of what I might have said at the time, I never wanted to be with him. The man for me always has been my husband. Recovery is possible with hard work, determination and, above all else, real love.

[dobler33]

I can accept all that - as I said I had not read your thread in full but was confused as your posts in the OW forum almost tell another story. But I do understand that you are also recovering from what happened between you and the ex-OM (and when you start writing ex-OM instead of OM you know that you are making progress ).

 

In my case, recovery has not been helped as I work with the ex-OM and see him every day (even worse for my H but he knows I am looking for another job). We have done MC and I have also gone through IC. The IC helped to an extent and was focussed on recovery of the marriage but it was also providing a means of dealing with how I felt about the ex-OM. However when the IC stopped and I was no longer talking about how I felt then I actually realised that those feelings were nowhere near as strong as I thought they were. The repeated talk about how he had made me felt etc was just keeping something alive when it was ready to be buried. Please be careful that you don't do the same - it's almost like picking away at a scab so it never really heals. Not the nicest simile but in some ways accurate.

 

So here I am working with the ex-OM who has just got engaged to another poor victim and I can honestly say that I am so relieved that I am not with him as I can now see that for him an affair was a way of having another relationship that would never work out (he is twice divorced, has lived with another woman and this new relationship is one where you can see it all falling apart in another year or so - long story, not sour grapes and not for here). I also know that inspite of what I might have said at the time, I never wanted to be with him. The man for me always has been my husband. Recovery is possible with hard work, determination and, above all else, real love.

 

 

ai dios, bummer about having to work w him. that must be awful. i totally get what you're saying about scab-picking (and yes, that's hella gross:p). i find that i have to think and talk about it a lot less now, and that mainly when i'm posting any of my own experience on the OW/OM board at this point it is in an effort to help someone else. that's always been the way i work through things - definitely a big reason i'm a therapist. it feels a LOT better to be able to say "this is what i felt/feel, but it gets better, i swear". of course there are still days when i get blindsided by lingering grief, but they are fewer and farther between with each passing week, and i find that getting it off my chest here on LS and receiving support and compassion from folks is enormously helpful.

 

and as my H and i work through this our marriage feels stronger and stronger. i feel how much he loves me and has always loved me, and my daft feeling that the xOM (there you go!) loved me more or better does fade. there will always be a scar, for both of us. we are made up of scars, and some of them are beautiful.

[anne1707]

For my H and I, this last year has obviously been a huge test of our relationship but whilst I deeply regret having the affair, I am so pleased and happy at the work we have put into our marriage since then. We make more time for each other, enjoy being with each other more. One of the things we now do is have "date night" during the week. Now this is partly so that we have time together not doing jobs round the house or just collapsing in front of the TV (or laptop ). But it is also an opportunity for us to discuss absolutely anything and on neutral ground whilst also ensuring that any tears/upset/pain is dealt with there and then and not taken home with us.

[boldjack]

Anne, i'm sorry but I didn't get whether your affair was emotional or Physical?

[eyeswide]

For my H and I, this last year has obviously been a huge test of our relationship but whilst I deeply regret having the affair, I am so pleased and happy at the work we have put into our marriage since then. We make more time for each other, enjoy being with each other more. One of the things we now do is have "date night" during the week. Now this is partly so that we have time together not doing jobs round the house or just collapsing in front of the TV (or laptop ). But it is also an opportunity for us to discuss absolutely anything and on neutral ground whilst also ensuring that any tears/upset/pain is dealt with there and then and not taken home with us.

 

Anne,

I have a couple of questions for you:

1) did you over the last year hit any particular rough spots? I think Owl once mentioned that the 6 month after D-day point (which I am fast approaching) could be particularly challenging. And if so, can you share any insights?

2) do you think handling emotional challenges while out at dinner is a generally good approach for folks? I remember once my H and I tried discussing some family problems while on a nice dinner, the whole thing blew up in our face and we didn't do another date night for about 3 yrs we were so disturbed by it (sheesh!) My tendency is to spend date night having a nice date, now, and save the tough conversations for home. But if you (or others) have thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them.

 

Thanks!

[jwi71]

JW, once again i think i've answered this a few times, although i'll happily do so again.

 

You keep saying this and I keep not seeing them. If you are letting details dribble out in your responses to others than this may be why...else I need to email Tony and ask for a smiley with a white cane be added.

what changed in me was that i had gotten so angry at my H and hopeless that he would ever change that i wasn't watching the red flags pop up as i became closer and closer friends with the OM,

Wait a minute. I thought you earlier claimed to have "just fallen in love"...it "just happened". That Freudian term...I forget it...what happened to that? In fact Owl asked for links given your passionate defense of "just happened". Now you are ignoring red flags. Which is it? And don't interpret this as snarky or attacking in a mean way...but its certainly a challenge to your apparent change of position (esp. in short time). Why did you change your characterization of your A happened?

 

such that by the time he confessed that he was in love with me i had already let down all my boundaries and was totally willing to confess right back. it's a change that happened over a long time, a couple of years of things getting worse and worse, and i wasn't fully aware of how far that change had gone until i realised that i was ready to leave him for this other person. i grew callous and disillusioned in order to cope with the constant hurt of rejection, and i got so good at convincing myself i wasn't lonely and unhappy that i was wide open for somebody to come and make me feel wanted and desired, make me feel not lonely anymore. that's what changed.

Why didn't you simply tell your H how you felt? Why live unhappily for so long that you become susceptible to an A? How did that happen?

 

it's funny to me that you are continually disbelieving how much of the environment in which the affair took place has any bearing in how i'm thinking about it now and how we're recovering,

I don't discount it all. I simply haven't heard YOU say where YOU went wrong...it was always your H this or your H that. It was never about YOUR decision to cheat (and its a decision...I'm playing back into the above ignoring of red flags). So what I'm about now with you is ownership of action. And maybe you do, but I hadn't heard it. That's my point...you keep pointing to the external forces which compelled you to act and I want you to look inward. Because every M has rough patches...but not everyone cheats. So I keep pressing you to speak not of the environ or your H but in terms of you.

 

Hopefully my question of how you and your M was makes sense...I was eliminating change in your H. He always acted like that. But you didn't. YOU changed your behavior...not him. Simple question of why.

 

but he seems a lot less mad at me than you are, JW.

I didnt realize asking simple questions made me angry. What was it that gave you that impression so I might correct it going forward?

 

And for the record...Im not angry at you. Just asking, to me, simple questions.