reconcilliation? how goes it?

[herenow]

Do you want answers from BW's or just WS's? I haven't read past your original post, so forgive me if this has already been asked and answered.

[dobler33]

On the flipside, dobler, what do you think his "friend's" motivation was. Was he angry at your H, as well?

And, what impression did his friend make on you with his willingness to both betray a friend and his wife.

I realize that all MM who cheat are betraying their wives. But, in this instance, we see a hardened heart that may be a few standsrd deviations form normal, in that his wife was your friend and your H was his own.

so, I wonder, was there not a part of you that questioned the character of this particular man( I imagine you are asking the same thing about yourself and his wife is asking this abut you, as well). It all seems so incestuous with the potential for great pain and a limited potential for happiness even if you wound up with this guy.

Has your husband's illness, depression, been exacerbated by the trauma? Has this action made recovery from the illness less likely or more difficult?

 

these are all great hindsight20/20 type questions. when he told me he was in love with me it was with great guilt and anguish, sort of an "i've been in love with you for years and can no longer hide my feelings" type thing. we'd started to become close friends (his wife and i had been close but he was always my H's friend until we started talking more) and i was utterly shocked by his revelation, even though i'd been more and more aware of my own feelings for him for a month or so. in all honesty, though this sounds like a cheese-out even to me, at the time i never in a million years would have expressed those feelings or even have fully admitted them to myself, because he was my H's best friend. his confession opened up a big huge floodgate for me and there he was, providing and promissing everything i'd been starving for for years. all i can tell you is that it made perfect sense at the time. and again, just as i must accept my own unconcious aggression as being a motivating factor, i must also accept the fact that it was probably motivating for the OM as well. my H had pulled a lot of the same sh*t w/ the OM as he had w/ me: emotional withdrawal, unavailability, unreliability, shutting him out, etc. so i'm sure he was angry and, even if he wasn't able to conciously avow it, was in part influenced by that anger. i didn't question his character because i was in the perfect narcissistic blindness of intense and forbidden love. not pretty, but true. when someone reaches into your heart and divines everything you've ever wanted and then offers it to you, it is VERY difficult to view them as anything other than the most beautiful human being on earth. and now, after having been angry and hating him for awhile i can see that his anguish and guilt were real, even if he was not an upstanding enough guy not to act on his emotions. my anguish and guilt were real, even if i was not upstanding enough not to act on my emotions. another both/and. it does truly feel when you're in it as though you cannot control it - it's like a drug, it takes over every aspect of your life. as for my H's depression, it has actually lifted quite dramatically since the terrible 2 weeks after d-day. he seems very happy with his decision to stay and work it out, and is more able to tell me what he feels most of the time. his activity and productivity have increased and we're having more sex. i have to be aware, however, that this has also been part of his depressive pattern: he goes way way down when he gets home from a tour and then comes back to life a few weeks before leaving again. so it remains to be seen what will happen the next time he comes home. i'm aware also that this upcoming tour will be more stressful than usual for him because of lingering distrust of my fidelity, and i hope to be able to do whatever he needs to address that. but as for the present moment, he seems far less depressed than i've seen him in a long time. what he tells me is that this was a wake-up call to him, that he has realized how his depression created a situation in which he has neglected our marriage.

[Spark1111]

i'm totally frustrated cause i had responded to a bunch of points and then somehow lost the post. grr. now i have to remember what i said and paraphrase cause i'm tired of typing.

 

 

dexter: pre-affair was when we were in therapy, and no, it was not particularly effective, mostly because my H was not willing to get treatment for his depression. he was not working on those issues pre-affair. let me repeat: he was NOT working on those issues pre-affair. he will be the first person to state this. that was a dynamic of but not an excuse for the affair. he seems to want to work on them now because he has recognized post-affair - and partly because of the affair - that he hasn't been happy either and wants better for himself and our marriage. this is his report, not mine. and you're absolutely right - i wasn't thinking of him. i was thinking of my own loneliness and pain from years of rejection and how wonderful it felt to be wanted again. it was indeed selfish and caused a tremendous amount of pain all around. the fact that HE HAS CHOSEN to forgive me and try to work on our problems is a testament to his strength of character. i am not defending my actions to him or to anyone else. i'm not sure what is confusing about this.

 

reggie - as an analyst you will never hear me argue about the nasty unconcious motives for any actions. eros and thanatos live side by side and operate the same psyche and body. i have been very very angry w my H for failing to be a partner and a friend, as he vowed he would. the fact that i too broke vows does not escape me - neither makes up for the other. of course it does not conciously feel to me as though i chose his friend by design, as he pursued me and offered everything he knew i had been denied by my H, but again, i know that choice and no choice are often illusions. i absolutely accept that my angry and unflattering unconcious aggression must also have played a part. i have been doing my best to take stock of what i want and need, what was missing in my marriage and myself that made the pursuit by the OM so attractive.

 

boldjack - there is of course an article of faith present in this for both of us. we have to, for the moment at least, assume that all the work we're doing is worth it. that goes for both of us, though, not just me. i left this decision entirely up to him and he chose reconcilliation. we're both working as hard as we can and can only see where it goes.

 

2sure - thanks for the encouragement. i'm glad it's been a positive change for you, as painful and traumatizing as it must have been.

 

Dobler....Imagine it was your husband who had the affair after ignoring repeated requests to treat a depression that had lingered for years, leaving you not only lonely, but then traumatized. He crashes into aneedy woman, re-invents himself for her, and devotes countless hours to romance, fun, and companionship. How do you feel now?

 

Does it matter who or why someone steps outside the marriage? It doesn't make the pain less or justifiable.

 

Just hoping you are trying to reconcile for the right reasons, is all.

[dobler33]

Sorry to keep asking questions. But, in addition to the affair, were there denials and gaslighting such that it impacted your H's perceptions re his sanity? If he was depressed, this could have pushed him further down.

HAs his friend appolgized to him as you did your friend?

 

hey, reggie, i'd much rather be asked questions than have assumptions thrown at me. please ask away. i don't think he feels gaslighted - he never asked me any questions that i answered with a lie. i wasn't sneaking away to meet the OM while my husband was home or making up excuses for my whereabouts. i'm sure he felt and feels duped, that i pulled one over on him. but as far as i know there were never any moments where he was suspicious or wondering and i made up a screen to divert him. to be perfectly honest, and this is going to sound ABSOLUTELY attrocious, during the 6 weeks of the affair he was either out of town or so totally self-absorbed in his depression that i doubt it would have ever occured to him to wonder what was going on in my head. that was, ultimately, part of the problem.

 

i believe that the OM has appologized to my H, but i can't be sure. he mentioned at one point that the OM had sent him a couple of emails on the day i told him about the affair; when the OM ended it i told him that i would be telling my H about the affair, which i did on the same day. based on my knowledge and understanding of the OM's personality, i can assume that there were gratuitous appologies in those emails, but i haven't read them.

[boldjack]

Thanks Dobie,I'm sure that you get tired of re-explaining your A and it's repercussions, but that's the nature of the "web". I believe that 2sure has a very good point. In the immediate aftermath of an A, BOTH marriage partners must sit down and realistically appraise the chances of successfully reconciling. It's an emotional time, and definitely not an easy or pleasant task, but MUST be done. Absolute honesty is crucial. This is where, I think that you haven't been completely straightforward with your H, Dobie. An analogy would be like bowling, In order to get a strike ( reconciliation) , all pins must be knocked down. You have left a couple still standing, your residual emotional connection with the OM, and your refusal to discuss this with your H. In my case, it was my wife, who threw an open frame. She transferred all of her anger and mistrust onto the OW for "seducing", me, and the OW's husband for not controlling his wife. I tried many times to assume the blame, that was quite rightly mine, but she would, always excuse me and transfer. I could have taken the easy way out and let her continue, but my own sense of honor would not let me. For the life of me , I cannot see how, anything less than COMPLETE disclosure (Every emotion relating to the affair) could allow a marriage to survive.

[dobler33]

Dobler....Imagine it was your husband who had the affair after ignoring repeated requests to treat a depression that had lingered for years, leaving you not only lonely, but then traumatized. He crashes into aneedy woman, re-invents himself for her, and devotes countless hours to romance, fun, and companionship. How do you feel now?

 

Does it matter who or why someone steps outside the marriage? It doesn't make the pain less or justifiable.

 

Just hoping you are trying to reconcile for the right reasons, is all.

 

ok, this is sincerely puzzling to me, and i'm asking about it out of a genuine desire to understand. i keep seeing a lot of this, and not just in my posts:

 

Cheater: I did a terrible thing that for which I feel remorse, even though my feelings are complex and difficult to quantify. I'm working hard to make restitution for actions which I in no way defend.

 

Poster: You did a terrible thing!!!! You should feel guilty!!!! How would you feel???? It was terrible!!!!

 

Cheater: Yeah, wow, I know. It was terrible. A lot of pain was caused. I was in a lot of pain and caused pain. This was what was going on for me, though I still take full responsibility for my actions.

 

Poster: Oh my god, how terrible was the terrible thing you did?!?!?! It is just amazing how much pain you caused and how terrible you are for doing this terrible thing!!!! Have you considered the amount of pain you caused???? A terrible amount of pain!!!!

 

Cheater: (Getting slightly bruised now) Jeez, yeah, I think I just mentioned my awareness of how much pain I caused and how terrible it was. I feel really, um, terrible about it. Um, can we have a few less exclamation marks?

 

Poster: You have no right to tell me that I can't call you terrible!!!! Because that's what you are, terrible! It's terrible how terrible you are!!! And if you don't want to hear it you're delusional!!!! Terribly, terribly delusional!!!!

 

Cheater: (In total cynical collapse) Wow. Thanks for the support.

 

any insight into this phenomenon?

[dobler33]

Do you want answers from BW's or just WS's? I haven't read past your original post, so forgive me if this has already been asked and answered.

 

i would love insight from BS's, herenow, as long as we can all agree that it isn't necessary to continue to let me know that i did a bad thing by having an affair. i am genuinely interested in hearing what was helpful in recovering from the affair.

[dobler33]

Thanks Dobie,I'm sure that you get tired of re-explaining your A and it's repercussions, but that's the nature of the "web". I believe that 2sure has a very good point. In the immediate aftermath of an A, BOTH marriage partners must sit down and realistically appraise the chances of successfully reconciling. It's an emotional time, and definitely not an easy or pleasant task, but MUST be done. Absolute honesty is crucial. This is where, I think that you haven't been completely straightforward with your H, Dobie. An analogy would be like bowling, In order to get a strike ( reconciliation) , all pins must be knocked down. You have left a couple still standing, your residual emotional connection with the OM, and your refusal to discuss this with your H. In my case, it was my wife, who threw an open frame. She transferred all of her anger and mistrust onto the OW for "seducing", me, and the OW's husband for not controlling his wife. I tried many times to assume the blame, that was quite rightly mine, but she would, always excuse me and transfer. I could have taken the easy way out and let her continue, but my own sense of honor would not let me. For the life of me , I cannot see how, anything less than COMPLETE disclosure (Every emotion relating to the affair) could allow a marriage to survive.

 

you are totally right, boldjack, and i have been making that conversation available to him if he wants to have it. so far he hasn't felt ready to have it. he knows that i had a lot of loss and grief in those first two weeks and since then, if he asks what i'm feeling when i'm sad about the OM, i'll tell him. i'm giving him the reigns on this for now, letting him decide his threshhold.

[boldjack]

The process of reclamation is a lengthy and difficult one. In truth, nobody can have any assurances that it will result in a renewal of "the soul", as it were , of the marriage. But, we can only try. I wish you better luck with your task, than I had with mine.

[Reggie]

I agree that continuing to address the damge a cheater inflicts goes on in some threads after the cheater has owned it.

But, I think what triggers folks may be two things. First, there really is no way a cheater understands the real extent of the damage, IMO. But, continually bringing it up will not accomplish that, so I try to avoid it.

The second thing I think triggers it is mentioning the BSs pre-affair issues that many that cheat feel set the stage for their actions. I really think they are irrelevant and there is no casual connection between the decision to cheat and the pre-A issues. To BSs hearing this, it may sound like justification. Thus the desire to emphasize the extent of the trauma so as to demonstrate the inadequacy of the justification.

I say this because there are so many alternatives to cheating. To me , it is like saying "my wife has bad breath. Therefore , I bought a corvette and bankrupted us."

Perhaps you can explain your rationale , dobler, for presenting allegations that your H was depressed and inattentive. I imagine it may seem relevant to establish your state of mind. BUt, that makes no sens to me in that if you wanted those problems addressed, you chose such an ineffective , actualy counter-productive way of trying to get him help.

[dobler33]

I agree that continuing to address the damge a cheater inflicts goes on in some threads after the cheater has owned it.

But, I think what triggers folks may be two things. First, there really is no way a cheater understands the real extent of the damage, IMO. But, continually bringing it up will not accomplish that, so I try to avoid it.

The second thing I think triggers it is mentioning the BSs pre-affair issues that many that cheat feel set the stage for their actions. I really think they are irrelevant and there is no casual connection between the decision to cheat and the pre-A issues. To BSs hearing this, it may sound like justification. Thus the desire to emphasize the extent of the trauma so as to demonstrate the inadequacy of the justification.

I say this because there are so many alternatives to cheating. To me , it is like saying "my wife has bad breath. Therefore , I bought a corvette and bankrupted us."

Perhaps you can explain your rationale , dobler, for presenting allegations that your H was depressed and inattentive. I imagine it may seem relevant to establish your state of mind. BUt, that makes no sens to me in that if you wanted those problems addressed, you chose such an ineffective , actualy counter-productive way of trying to get him help.

 

good points, all. i think it's important to restress the fact that i feel the pre-affair issues are in no way an excuse for the affair. i'll continue to repeat that.

 

that being said, however, there is most definitely an interrelation between the two. pretty much everything i've ever read or heard or witnessed in my professional life with regards to affairs suggests that they simply do not happen if everybody is happy at home. now, of course, this can mean a lot of things. it can mean that the cheater him/herself is unhappy and that the marriage has little to do with that unhappiness. it can mean that the cheater is a pathological narcissist who simply does not care what their spouse feels, in which case i would suggest that no one is happy. it can mean that the dynamics of the relationship are such that one or both parties are not getting what they want, and actively seek it outside the marriage. or it can mean that one or both parties aren't getting what they want, and are therefore susceptible to temptation outside the marriage whether they were looking for it or not. i'm sure there are a million other scenarios, which is why i tend to shy away from absolute statements like "there is no casual connection between the decision to cheat and the pre-A issues".

 

and i'd also like to reiterate that "setting the stage" and "gave me permission" are in my view not the same thing. we all affect one another, our internal objects and historical emotional experiences intricately interweaving with those around us. even strangers on a bus are, to the extent that they are aware of one another, engaged in a complex exchange of information that triggers and sets the stage for emotional reactions. nowhere is this more true than in a long term relationship, where each party is both a product of their life's experience and also a product of their own free will. each partner carries complex internal objects and introjections that go back to infancy, and we will never understand all of them. they interact in such a way as to influence - but not determine - thoughts, feelings and behavior. again: influence, not determine. therefore i believe that the dynamics between partners can most definitely set the stage for an affair, even though i don't believe that an affair is right or defensible.

 

and finally, i'll go back to what i said about my state of mind: i was not thinking of my husband. i was angry and had given up on him. i did not chose the affair as a way of addressing our problems. i intended to leave, thereby totally failing to address our problems. the fact that he has chosen to forgive me is a great blessing, and i will always be grateful. however, in order for this to work we do in fact need to address the pre-affair issues.

[Dexter Morgan]

i'm totally frustrated cause i had responded to a bunch of points and then somehow lost the post. grr. now i have to remember what i said and paraphrase cause i'm tired of typing.

 

 

dexter: pre-affair was when we were in therapy, and no, it was not particularly effective, mostly because my H was not willing to get treatment for his depression. he was not working on those issues pre-affair. let me repeat: he was NOT working on those issues pre-affair. he will be the first person to state this. that was a dynamic of but not an excuse for the affair. he seems to want to work on them now because he has recognized post-affair - and partly because of the affair - that he hasn't been happy either and wants better for himself and our marriage. this is his report, not mine. and you're absolutely right - i wasn't thinking of him. i was thinking of my own loneliness and pain from years of rejection and how wonderful it felt to be wanted again. it was indeed selfish and caused a tremendous amount of pain all around. the fact that HE HAS CHOSEN to forgive me and try to work on our problems is a testament to his strength of character.

 

lucky for you and very generous of him. Its good that he knows there is a problem and can vow to work on it.

 

 

i am not defending my actions to him or to anyone else. i'm not sure what is confusing about this.

 

well, the following statement by you didn't help: nothing is going to change until he's ready to deal with his depression and withdrawal

 

this to me sounded like all the burden to "change" and make an effort into the marriage lies with him. maybe its not how you meant it to sound.

 

its as if he was willing to forgive you for something that you did that he will never forget.....but he isn't being afforded the same courtesy.

[Dexter Morgan]

something else I'm curious about. I didn't read it, but someone here said that you, dob, were ready to leave your husband for this MM and the only reason you are reconciling with your H is because the MM left the affair.

 

If this is true, doesn't this mean your husband was 2nd fiddle and you are only reconciling because you were dumped?

 

if this is not the case, my apologies. I just remember someone saying that was your story.

[Spark1111]

ok, this is sincerely puzzling to me, and i'm asking about it out of a genuine desire to understand. i keep seeing a lot of this, and not just in my posts:

 

Cheater: I did a terrible thing that for which I feel remorse, even though my feelings are complex and difficult to quantify. I'm working hard to make restitution for actions which I in no way defend.

 

Poster: You did a terrible thing!!!! You should feel guilty!!!! How would you feel???? It was terrible!!!!

 

Cheater: Yeah, wow, I know. It was terrible. A lot of pain was caused. I was in a lot of pain and caused pain. This was what was going on for me, though I still take full responsibility for my actions.

 

Poster: Oh my god, how terrible was the terrible thing you did?!?!?! It is just amazing how much pain you caused and how terrible you are for doing this terrible thing!!!! Have you considered the amount of pain you caused???? A terrible amount of pain!!!!

 

Cheater: (Getting slightly bruised now) Jeez, yeah, I think I just mentioned my awareness of how much pain I caused and how terrible it was. I feel really, um, terrible about it. Um, can we have a few less exclamation marks?

 

Poster: You have no right to tell me that I can't call you terrible!!!! Because that's what you are, terrible! It's terrible how terrible you are!!! And if you don't want to hear it you're delusional!!!! Terribly, terribly delusional!!!!

 

Cheater: (In total cynical collapse) Wow. Thanks for the support.

 

any insight into this phenomenon?

 

And this is referring to.....me hoping you are reconciling for the right reasons???

 

All the other BSs have asked the same questions over and over. There is no reason to perceive an attack.

[Spark1111]

And this is referring to.....me hoping you are reconciling for the right reasons???

 

All the other BSs have asked the same questions over and over. There is no reason to perceive an attack.

 

Those of us who consider ourselves successfully reconciling ask:

 

Do you REALLY love your spouse?

 

Do you still have feelings for the OM?

 

Sorry Dobler, when I read your posts, it sounds as if you are waiting for the other shoe to drop: another sink by your spouse into depression. I get it. I lived it.

 

Sex is better, he seems more committed, etc. As if you are making lists, and your H's positives are outweighing his negatives at the moment.

 

But it will be impossible to deal with the pre-affair issues, until the more recent and more traumatic affair issues are first dealt with. Is he too, now blaming his depression for your affair.

 

I will venture a guess: When he grows good and angry about the affair that will be your first sign that he is coming out of his depression.

 

So I reiterate what all the other happily betrayed spouse's are asking: Do you love him? Do you still have feelings for the OM?

[dobler33]

lucky for you and very generous of him. Its good that he knows there is a problem and can vow to work on it.

 

 

 

 

well, the following statement by you didn't help: nothing is going to change until he's ready to deal with his depression and withdrawal

 

this to me sounded like all the burden to "change" and make an effort into the marriage lies with him. maybe its not how you meant it to sound.

 

its as if he was willing to forgive you for something that you did that he will never forget.....but he isn't being afforded the same courtesy.

 

again, good points, although a little different from my reality. the statement about change was referring to the fact that all the couples work we did would fall apart as soon as he went into a depression and totally stop communicating, start acting like a butthead, refuse to utilize any of the tools we had been given in therapy. therefore, the therapist was of the opinion that nothing would change until he got treatment for his depression. that was all pre-affair.

 

and i totally see your point about forgiveness. a lot of my anger toward him softened when i saw that he loved me enough and was courageous enough to forgive me. i do think it's a little different though; i forgave him over and over for years, and he would promise change and then fail to deliver. so at this point, for me, it's less about forgiveness and more about whether or not he's able - i mean capable here, not just willing - to get help with something that's been destroying his life and our marriage for years. and again, it wasn't just our relationship. ironically enough, out of all my H's friends who he had shunned and shut out and flaked on and ignored over the last 3 years of his depression, the OM was the last hanger-on, the last to give him a chance. of course, that does NOT excuse his actions, nor mine. i merely point it out to illustrate the global difficulties my H's depression had been creating in his life.

[dobler33]

something else I'm curious about. I didn't read it, but someone here said that you, dob, were ready to leave your husband for this MM and the only reason you are reconciling with your H is because the MM left the affair.

 

If this is true, doesn't this mean your husband was 2nd fiddle and you are only reconciling because you were dumped?

 

if this is not the case, my apologies. I just remember someone saying that was your story.

 

next:

i will totally admit that when the OM ended it i was more or less incapable of doing anything else besides telling my H and seeing what his reaction would be. this is how it looked in my mind, in those first bloody and hallucinatorily painful days: if H can face this with me and forgive, then he is a far braver and bigger man than i had given him credit for and there is more hope for us than i thought. i am not currently fit to make any decisions about the future of my life, so i will see what he does with it while i regain my ability to eat/sleep/function. not admirable, i will be the first to admit, but that's where i was at the time. over time, as we regain our communication and remember that we love each other and that we're willing to sacrifice for each other, the relationship grows stronger and i'm more and more glad OM ended it so that i could release myself from the insanity. so in a way, dex, the unflattering assumption you make is true - i started out only reconciling because i was dumped. ugh, that's so unpretty. i'm grateful that i've had the opportunity to see my H's strength and committment - it's easy to forget what you loved about someone when you're that angry.

[dobler33]

Those of us who consider ourselves successfully reconciling ask:

 

Do you REALLY love your spouse?

 

Do you still have feelings for the OM?

 

Sorry Dobler, when I read your posts, it sounds as if you are waiting for the other shoe to drop: another sink by your spouse into depression. I get it. I lived it.

 

Sex is better, he seems more committed, etc. As if you are making lists, and your H's positives are outweighing his negatives at the moment.

 

But it will be impossible to deal with the pre-affair issues, until the more recent and more traumatic affair issues are first dealt with. Is he too, now blaming his depression for your affair.

 

I will venture a guess: When he grows good and angry about the affair that will be your first sign that he is coming out of his depression.

 

So I reiterate what all the other happily betrayed spouse's are asking: Do you love him? Do you still have feelings for the OM?

 

and, finally: (phew! my fingers hurt.)

sorry, spark, for singling out your post for my little scripted enactment. that final question you asked was a totally valid one. in answer to the further questions you pose here:

1)yes, i REALLY love my spouse.

 

2)yes, i still have some feelings for the OM but they fade with each day and may in fact be largely habitual, like turning up the wrong street after you move when you're not paying attention to the road. i try not to put much weight on them.

 

3)the positives are definitely outweighing the negatives at this point which is encouraging, although as i've mentioned this is part of his depressive pattern so i'm still in a watch-and-see mode, but only as a precaution.

 

4)he's gotten good and angry at least once since d-day, and although i am sure it won't be the last time, you're right, it did herald a big upswing in his mood and in our ability to communicate. i was relieved when he got angry - my biggest fear is that he'll sublimate this into a low-level simmering resentment that balloons into full-blown hatred 20 years from now. i am TOTALLY supportive of him being angry now. since that first flare of it he has been remarkably kind and compassionate, so we'll see.

 

5)no, i don't think he's blaming his depression for my affair, but he has taken responsibility for helping to create the atmosphere in which the affair grew - me alone 6-8 months out of the year and struggling for his engagement and presence when he's home. again, NOT THE SAME AS AN EXCUSE. it's kind of like the environment in which an infection grows; the infection is definitely the problem but if you don't make the effort to clean the wound then the infection is more likely to run rampant.

 

did i get them all?

[dobler33]

Dobler, I'm curious...have you gone through the "withdrawl" at the end of your affair with OM?

 

Have you dealt with the full grieving process of the "death" of the affair and the loss of the OM?

 

oh wow, i totally missed this one and didn't respond to it. yes, owl, i went through serious withdrawal. very much like a drug withdrawal, in fact. it was eviscerating. and i've been keeping pretty good track of the stages of grief after the death of the affair - and i like the fact that you put it that way, because it very much feels like a death. i wrote throughout the whole thing, an anonymous blog, and i can trace back through the entries and say, "yup, that was denial. ooh look, there's bargaining! and, yeeessss.....there it is.......ANGER! whoo hoo! and, sh*t, there goes depression. *sigh*"

 

now i'm sort of floating around in the shallow end of acceptance. i no longer fantasize about him changing his mind or writing to him. when thoughts of him come up i am generally pissed off about it rather than wanting to hang onto them. they do still come up, and it can be like a jackboot to the solar plexus when i'm not expecting it. but MAN, is it better than it was a month ago! i am truly amazed to be alive; it was touch and go. i've said this before, but i found myself in the bathroom with a bottle of pills in my hand at least once, and had to fight REALLY hard not to revert to old reactions to trauma - cutting, anorexia, etc. so i'm pretty stoked to wake up in the morning these days, and very happy to see my husband beside me, and our kitty snoring away between us. i made it through the worst emotional injury of my adult life, so acceptance comes a little easier; at least i have a lot more patience with myself, knowing that it comes and i just have to keep trucking.

[Reggie]

dobler, I am wondering, is healthy expression of anger an ongoing issue for you? I grew up in a family where if I expressed anger there were major reprecussions. This can lead to passive/aggressive behavior and it seems anger affairs fall into that category.

Is your H on any meds for his depression? These days there is so much available inthe way of help through these meds. It seems an odd coupling, if he is resitant to meds, a therapist and somene adverse to the meds.

Was the friend unable to see that your H's behaviors were the result of a bonafide illness?

I know, first hand, having been married to someone that has BPD, how hard it is to be objective and view the behaviors as an ilness or disorder rather than taking things personally.

It will be interesting, assuming he gets help for his depression, to see if once he is healthy, he realizes how he was kicked when he was down. Iwould think he may have all kinds of doubts re your willingness to stick with him in sickness.

I guess it is like being married to an alcoholic , in that the unwillingness to sek help has the volitional component not present in other illnesses like cancer etc.

Recovery from an affair, for a BS, must be a terrible fight. I read one guy's view on it and he takes the position that inherent in all of us is a desire to be loved(romantically) to the exclusion of all others. He feels it is hardwired into our brains. And, once we have concrete evidence that this is not the case with our spouse, a BS has to live the rest of his/her love with this certainty.

I think an affair, essentially, revamops one's entire view of a marital relationship. It takes some of the romance out and makes it a more pragmactic thing, an equation: if I do x, y and z, my spouse will love me. But, if I miss out and neglect something, all bets are off.

I suppose a WS could look at it the same way: If I remain faithful, my sopouse will love me. But if I am not, all bets are off.

What I am wondering is what a recovered marriage really feels like. I wonder what people like OWl feel, knowing with certainty that under the right circumstances, the vow of fidelity has a loophole.

[Reggie]

dobler, not to pry(guess I am), but with a history of cutting, an eating disorder, and now infidelity, have you been evaluated for a personality disorder? I know there are therapies available, now, this DBT thing. I have one friend who has BPD and has had this with a fair amount of success.

[dobler33]

dobler, I am wondering, is healthy expression of anger an ongoing issue for you? I grew up in a family where if I expressed anger there were major reprecussions. This can lead to passive/aggressive behavior and it seems anger affairs fall into that category.

Is your H on any meds for his depression? These days there is so much available inthe way of help through these meds. It seems an odd coupling, if he is resitant to meds, a therapist and somene adverse to the meds.

Was the friend unable to see that your H's behaviors were the result of a bonafide illness?

I know, first hand, having been married to someone that has BPD, how hard it is to be objective and view the behaviors as an ilness or disorder rather than taking things personally.

It will be interesting, assuming he gets help for his depression, to see if once he is healthy, he realizes how he was kicked when he was down. Iwould think he may have all kinds of doubts re your willingness to stick with him in sickness.

I guess it is like being married to an alcoholic , in that the unwillingness to sek help has the volitional component not present in other illnesses like cancer etc.

Recovery from an affair, for a BS, must be a terrible fight. I read one guy's view on it and he takes the position that inherent in all of us is a desire to be loved(romantically) to the exclusion of all others. He feels it is hardwired into our brains. And, once we have concrete evidence that this is not the case with our spouse, a BS has to live the rest of his/her love with this certainty.

I think an affair, essentially, revamops one's entire view of a marital relationship. It takes some of the romance out and makes it a more pragmactic thing, an equation: if I do x, y and z, my spouse will love me. But, if I miss out and neglect something, all bets are off.

I suppose a WS could look at it the same way: If I remain faithful, my sopouse will love me. But if I am not, all bets are off.

What I am wondering is what a recovered marriage really feels like. I wonder what people like OWl feel, knowing with certainty that under the right circumstances, the vow of fidelity has a loophole.

 

all very interesting questions and musings. anger was indeed an issue in my family and so you make an interesting connection there, although i have to say that i expressed my anger pretty clearly in the years before the 6 weeks of the affair. along with compassion and love and cajoling and pleading and bargaining and just about every other way i could possibly think of to get him to effing do something about it. he is not on meds and will probably always refuse them. and yes, the irony of him being married to a therapist does not escape me. i think i should point out that i too struggle with depression and have been in therapy and on meds for some time. this may further describe my total exasperation and - this is a good word you use here, reggie - feeling of violation that he continued to refuse to get help. like: "i get it, i understand depression, i deal with it to. i've made a choice to improve my life both for myself and for the betterment of our marriage, because i love you and want us to be as healthy as we can be. why won't you do the same?" it can definitely feel like "if he loved me enough he'd get help". so yes, i do understand the nature of the illness, that it is in fact an illness. but that does not mean that you are incapable of getting help. interestingly enough, the OM had gone through a serious depression and had been on meds for a while too, so he understood the nature of the illness as well, and also my frustration that my H continued to not do anything about it. it was definitely something that brought us together - frustration with this man we both loved and desperately wanted to be close to, only to constantly be rejected by him. i really, really, really hope those days are behind us. i can only give him credit for having a disease if he seeks to heal from that disease, you know?

[dobler33]

dobler, not to pry(guess I am), but with a history of cutting, an eating disorder, and now infidelity, have you been evaluated for a personality disorder? I know there are therapies available, now, this DBT thing. I have one friend who has BPD and has had this with a fair amount of success.

 

now i remember! you are very interested in BPD, yes? i've seen you suggest it a number of times. i have indeed been evaluated - i think i have mentioned that i'm in therapy and have been for years - but i don't have a personality disorder. i am diagnosed with dysthymic depression (constant, low-grade depression that lasts for two or more years) and PTSD (early childhood abuse/later relational sexual assault and abuse). there are many reasons people (particularly women) present with self-injuring behaviors other than BPD, or any personality disorder for that matter. although i do agree that DBT has been a very effective treatment for BPD.

[Reggie]

That's good, dobler, as those disorders are fairly intractable. I'd never heard of thenm before my therapist and my lawyer, a former counselor, suggested I research them. This was after i described the incredible spendin, the insistence our kids sleep in our bed(for 7 years), getting doused repeatedly with cold water when I showered and lots of emasculating verbal abuse.

I think the remorseless cheaters have a fairly high incidence of PDs as do the serial cheaters. You seem to have remorse and insight and empathy.

It's tough to overcome childhood abuse. I've noticed that while this type of abuse often lays in the history of the disordered, it seems to be present in a fairly high percentage of the folks that get involved with the disordered, as well.

It is interesting that abuse often leads to either a disorder or the type of unhealthy issues that lead one to tolerate the disordered way too long(like co-dependency). I've read that on some level, either subconciously or conciously, the disordered target overly tolerant types. And, the overly tolerant types are drawn to the disordered.

[dobler33]

reggie - what you're saying, in terms of trends, can often be seen if you're looking for it. but one of the first things you learn in grad psych studies, when you're having to memorize the DSM (Diagnostic & Statistical Manual - the bible of the field), is that everyone you know, including yourself, is disordered in some way. if you ever get the opportunity to watch a 1st year grad psych class undergoing psychopathology class, i highly recommend it. everyone comes in the second week freaking out because their mom/boyfriend/coworker/kid is borderline or obsessive or ADHD or schizoid...... we're ALL crazy, baby. pick up a DSM one day and i challenge you NOT to find at least 5 relevant diagnoses for yourself. they're helpful for paperwork and prognostication, but the truth is that everyone does borderline/obsessive/ADHD/schizoid stuff.

 

that being said, it sounds like this particular diagnosis has been helpful for you in understanding and contextualizing what was clearly an abusive relationship.

 

i want to just slip in there that abuse and mental illness are not interchangeable. you can be a survivor of abuse and not be diagnosable, and you can be certifiable without ever having experienced abuse. of course they are often covalent, but it's not a fait accompli.

 

sorry, dobler's psych fact of the day.