paddington bear Posted May 29, 2009 Posted May 29, 2009 Thoughts on this. Say a family member got involved with a cult, brainwashed, isolated from family and friends; those family and friends often try to reclaim their lost one from the cult. It's seen as a bad thing, a loss of identity, getting involved in an unhealthy group situation where individual thought or decision-making is disallowed, so those outside the situation who care for their friend or family member will of course try to get their loved-one out. But what if it's an individual? When it comes to one on one relationships and one partner basically does everything a cult does, brainwashes, guilt-trips, isolates them from others, dominates, controls every aspect of their existence, we often say 'it's his/her choice to be in this relationship, saying something is not going to change things, in fact it might make that person hate you'. I'm now realising the terrible extent that someone else is being controlled. In therapy I said that I feel so helpless standing on the sidelines watching this happen to someone I care about, yet feeling that my hands are tied and that I'm unable to do anything. Therapist said that it's the other person's choice to be in that situation and that it's up to them to leave, it's their life and to leave them to it, but I can't help feeling that I'm simply allowing someone else to slowly drown. Bear in mind this is a level of manipulation and control that is all encompassing, not just bossyness, it is at a dangerous level. Me bowing out and leaving them to it, means that the 'isolation from friends and family' part of the brainwashing has worked and there is no outside other point of view to counterbalance the all-encompassing singular controlling point of view that's been drummed in day after day. So what do I do? Follow the therapists advice and leave them to it? Or do I do what friends and family would do if it were a group cult situation and try to somehow get that person out? I realise that me saying something along the lines of 'can't you see you're being manipulated totally, this example, that example' is going to be replied with 'oh it's not like that at all' due to the aforementioned brainwashing, so it's kind of pointless and will probably not change anything. I'm wondering is there another way? Probably not, just wanted some input before I decide to walk away guilt-free that I've done all I can do and that it's their choice.
Amy35 Posted May 29, 2009 Posted May 29, 2009 So what do I do? I realise that me saying something along the lines of 'can't you see you're being manipulated totally, this example, that example' is going to be replied with 'oh it's not like that at all' due to the aforementioned brainwashing, so it's kind of pointless and will probably not change anything. I'm wondering is there another way? Probably not, just wanted some input before I decide to walk away guilt-free that I've done all I can do and that it's their choice. You be their friend....and be as supportive as you can....and when you can....you listen....you be the opposite of the person they are in a relationship with...listen actively....compliment your friend...never say "Well if you can't get out I won't talk to you then" because that is manipulation and guilt tripping in itself..... Detachment in this case works.....because many, many times that person will say they will leave and then change their mind through being scared, fearing the worst, having low self esteem. And in the end....the abusuer wins....the friends vanish....the support dries up... It is TOUGH being a supporter and friend to someone who is being abused. In the book...."Why do they do that?" by Lundy Bancroft....he gives advice to friends and family in your same situation....I'm not sure I can post exerts here....but if you know someone with a copy....please read that section....and try if you can stand it....to carry on being a friend to that person....because believe me...I've been there....and my best friends never left me. It took me 10 years to leave my ex. 10 YEARS.....my only wish was that I had done it sooner....but 10 years previous I was in no fit state or strong enough to leave. It was only when my support network increased....and my self confidence built up....that I was able to make the choice to leave. At the end....I was being cheated on...and allowing it....and STILL suffering emotional and mental manipulative abuse from that man....I took all that from him because of some warped duty to my husband....and when I finally realised I was an enabler....I was able to do something about it. <Man I so need to go back and look at my current R> Hope this helps PB......
Amy35 Posted May 29, 2009 Posted May 29, 2009 Oh and if you want any advice on caretaking, over functioning and feeling guilt..... I am that woman!!!!!
Author paddington bear Posted May 29, 2009 Author Posted May 29, 2009 Thanks Amy - what complicates this situation is that I'm being manipulated too by the manipulator, so I need to get away from this person myself first, which means distancing from both, which means I am technically saying you can't be my friend while you're with this person, but it's for self-protection. Guess when I'm free again myself I can offer support, in the meantime they come as a package, can't talk to one without the other there...
carhill Posted May 29, 2009 Posted May 29, 2009 OP, I'm not clear on the dynamic, especially how you can be manipulated as an outside party, but, regardless, the philosophy of caring less will work for you. No one can manipulate you if their existence is irrelevant. I've dealt with this with controlling and manipulative husbands of some of my wife's friends. I'm a friend to the woman and the man is irrelevant. He can't affect me in any way. A car could run him over and I'd feel nothing, other than some empathy for the wife. Does that makes sense? If you can disconnect yourself from the situation, you can offer outside support. I've done this so know it can be done. The resolution lies in how you process the dynamic in your mind. It's one of those "think your way out of the box" situations, IMO. You can do it
Author paddington bear Posted May 29, 2009 Author Posted May 29, 2009 I'd like to go into more detail but am wary of doing that in a public forum. But that's exactly the dynamic Carhill - to disconnect and see this person as irrelevant. I guess I'm only now seeing how I was manipulated myself, guilt-tripped etc and was feeling terrible until an outside friend said to me 'this person has totally manipulated you, rattled you and you've played right into their hands'. Right now it's hard to see them as irrelevant as they are in my face all the time, which automatically puts me on the defensive and does rattle my cage. Next time any contact happens I will think of your being run over by a car and not caring story. Anyway, what you've said is actually dead on target and I'll try to (somehow) get to the they are irrelevant stage.
Trialbyfire Posted May 29, 2009 Posted May 29, 2009 This is the classic drama triangle: RescuerVictimPersecutorDo you see your role in this? I do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
carhill Posted May 29, 2009 Posted May 29, 2009 As the erstwhile rescuer in the classic triangle, I had to learn irrelevance as a defense mechanism, prior to better understanding how to recognize the dynamic and avoid it at the outset. Not perfect by any means, but work continues. A tool I learned from our psychologist was how to intellectually validate without emotionally investing. This is something my wife is expert at. She could sound like she cared when she really didn't. I had no real skills in that area. I either cared or I didn't and couldn't intellectualize it. I'm better at that now. By remaining in the realm of the intellect, manipulation (being manipulated) is more difficult, IMO.
Author paddington bear Posted May 29, 2009 Author Posted May 29, 2009 Interesting Trilbyfire...seriously. And I am obviously the rescuer, but was sometime victim - was feeling victimised, but now getting over that, feeling stronger and hence wanting to rescue the other person from certain doom as I see what was done to me and they are fully in there, drowning. Anyway, I think that Carhill's suggestion of intellectually validating without emotionally investing (glad you simplified that one for me Carhill or I would have been scratching my head for weeks). I guess I was brought up to think that lying or being dishonest in any form was a bad thing. And I feel guilty when I do that, so therefore doing what your wife is now so good at, acting like I care when I really don't is totally anathema to me and is something I have to learn to do, to turn off that switch, act one way, while feeling another, or rather as you put it feeling nothing at all either way. The fact that it's ok to basically lie (in my mind) in a situation like this simply hadn't occurred. I think that should help me emotionally distance myself and then I guess should the 3rd member of this little triangle come to their senses at least I'll be in a healthy frame of mind myself. Thanks guys.
Mahatma Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 There really is not much you can do except offer advice and then back off. Constantly badgering your friend will only push the friend further away.
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