quit it, y'all.

[Dexter Morgan]

if you have never been the OW/M, if you have never experienced the conditions that are described at the top of this page: "those who find themselves involved with a committed partner", then it is respectfully requested that you find another forum. there are PLENTY. if you have experienced these conditions and have differing views from other posters, then debate will be spirited and potentially ellucidating for all parties. but it is unacceptable for people who have not experienced what is being discussed here to pass judgement or profer their own emotional agenda on this forum. i'm new here and have been totally appalled by the disrespect shown in a conversation where people are vulnerably trying to cope with their conflicted, unflattering, controversial and fundamentally personal feelings. it's not ok.

 

so would you also support that OW/OM stay out of the infidelity section where people are trying to cope with being cheated on?

[tami-chan]

Reggie I think what you are missing is that you see cheating in itself as disturbing behavior and you accuse anyone who cheats of having a personality disorder.

 

I hate to say it but you have been one of the offenders and been extremely cruel at times.

 

ahh...wow..aint this the truth...

[Reggie]

I do see a lot of disordered behavior among cheaters. Infidelity is rampant among them, so that is no surprise. I do not see it as cruel to point this out.

[Dexter Morgan]

Thank you dobler for posting this thread! I agree wholeheartedly with you! This is a support forum. A place to let OW / OM know that they aren't alone. That there is hope. That they can get through this. That other people have made the same mistakes and there are shoulders to cry on and a kind ear to listen.

 

but what you speak of is much different than what attracts the "bashing". Any OM/OW that thinks they made a "mistake", feels remorse about the pain they helped to cause, and really wants to get out of a crap situation I wouldn't mind going and having a beer with.

 

Then you have the other side of the coin, those that blame the BS, don't give a crap about what someone else is going through, and only cares about themselves.

 

The support to which you are referring is support I consider .....well....supportable.

 

The ones that are looking for ways to get the WS to leave their marriage and children, or want support on how to propogate and maintain an affair are just looking for support for their selfish agenda.

 

Stampdaddy would be an example of the former situation to which I referred. I raise my glass to him and those like him...Gamine would be another off the top of my head.

 

 

The majority of us already feel stupid, foolish, like every d*#m country song ever written, and every Lifetime movie ever televised. Our self-esteem is down to nothing and our self-confidence is at an all time low.

 

We know what we did was wrong. We know that we ruined or could of ruined a lot of lives. We hate ourselves. And we don't need others telling us what terrible people we are. We know that.

 

Well I would add you to the list of the rare ones that are wanting to do the "right thing" and actually have empathy for those that are affected by your actions, along with the actions of their spouses.

[boldjack]

I think that you are making very valid points, Dobie, but you also need to try to understand the RAGE and impotence that the BS'S feel and their very human desire to strike back at the perceived threat (WS & OW/OM.) These BS'S may not be able to give expression to these feelings in their real-life situations, and so, come to the OW forum, and attempt to find relief by bashing other OW/OM's. A form of catharsis (?) My suggestion would be to try to defuse the worst of these situations, with compassion. When I finally became mature enough to try to rectify the harm I had caused to several marriages, I would go to the BS'S and give them the opportunity to vent their rage against me. I had abuse heaped on me by the shovel-full, but as long as there was no physical attack, I would not defend myself nor my actions. I found that this " act of atonement", helped me with my own healing. I owed them that much. (closure). Unless we have been on both sides of the equation, can we OW/OM'S ever really understand the true horror that many BS'S feel? Maybe by helping BS'S rebuild their lives, we can rebuild our own.

[jwi71]

to my mind support does not necessarily mean agreement. you can support a person without supporting their actions. "i can see that this is hurting you and must be very difficult. i'll bet it feels impossible to do anything differently. but here are some possibilities..." note how this differs from "what the hell are you doing, you selfish immoral serial killer!" or similar. the first recognizes the real and valid human experience of the subject, which makes them more likely to hear the fact that they could be doing something different. the second is not only insulting but is in fact utterly counterproductive: it is almost certain to reorganize someone's defenses around their feelings and experience such that they might never make change. so to those of you who have been insisting that "support" is for sissies, i pose the question: are you trying to make someone change their mind or are you just trying to relieve your own feelings?

 

This seems less an interpretation/definition of "support" and more of I don't like your a) tone and b) message.

 

I am NOT disagreeing with your point on tone. Not in the least. Having said that, one must realize that the anonymity the internet affords not only brings out behaviors not normally displayed (or even imagined) but considering the subject matter...is to be expected.

 

And I do thank you for your reply but I continue to wonder what "support" is. It seems to me that OM/OW cry this when THEY are dissatisfied with their responses. Perhaps my question should be...what do you WANT to hear? Of course, I would then say you aren't after support at all. Rather permission.

[littleflowerpot]

If rapist only get advice from rapist then they will not see the damage they cause to the victim

 

Wow. Very bad analogy. Are you suggesting OW and OM are on the same level as rapists?

 

Wow.

[Reggie]

It is very common for a person in an affair to seek out only those people who mirror their feelings and endorse their actions and justifications. You see this type of opinion shopping frequently among cheaters and it is written about in several books on the subject.

I don't beleive in calling names as it is inappropriate. But, pointing out someones destructive behaviors and the effect on others is supportive, IMO.

I think it is also heloful to point out how someone is focusing entirely on their own discomfort , yet ignoring that of the folks they have hurt.

[Reggie]

Reggie I think what you are missing is that you see cheating in itself as disturbing behavior and you accuse anyone who cheats of having a personality disorder.

 

I hate to say it but you have been one of the offenders and been extremely cruel at times.

 

I do see it as disturbing. Actually, that is way to mild.

And, the serial cheaters or the remorseless ones are the only one's I see displaying disordered traits.

[Owl]

Owl, help me out please. What is this ignore feature? How does it work?

 

Shadowcat, I apologize for not responding to this earlier...I had to look it up.

 

I don't put people on ignore (although I'm sure that many feel I should sometimes) and so I actually didn't know how to do it.

 

But, with that said, all you need to do is go to the top of your LS page, and click on your own profile. Then look at the list of options on the left, and about halfway down you'll see "edit your ignore list" or something similar. Click on that, and you'll see where you can add and remove posters from that list.

 

Simply add those posters to the list that you don't want to see posts or PM's from.

 

Now...if someone quotes them in their OWN response on a thread, that isn't blocked.

 

I'd suggest that the OP consider this as a possible solution to the problem she described in her initial post on this thread.

[NoIDidn't]

Wow. Very bad analogy. Are you suggesting OW and OM are on the same level as rapists?

 

Wow.

 

Its annoying when people do this. You know they weren't saying that. And saying it the way you did only turns the conversation into a fight about something rapists and criminals and not about the very real harm and hurt that affairs cause. A distraction.

 

Mind you, I'm guilty of these types of analogies myself, but I understand the OP posters frustration with it. There has to be a better way for us to say what we mean without making you guys feel like we think you are criminals/scum.

 

Of course, they aren't saying that OPs are on the same level as rapists. They ARE saying that they feel that cheaters and those with the cheaters are doing society a disservice.

 

Disagree you might, but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of people have said just that to polls (even though some were probably having an affair at the time).

 

And note, I haven't said that they think they are necessarily bad people.

[littleflowerpot]

Its annoying when people do this. You know they weren't saying that. And saying it the way you did only turns the conversation into a fight about something rapists and criminals and not about the very real harm and hurt that affairs cause. A distraction.

 

I'm sorry to have annoyed you but I'm equally annoyed when people make analogies using only the worst sorts of characters to compare to. I have no intention of turning this into a discourse regarding rapists and criminals but instead truly believe a better analogy could have been found. People in affairs are in no way on the same level as rapists and criminals and I feel it was insidiously insulting to have used this. You feel it is a distraction and I feel it can further encourage the more vocal bashers to feel fully righteous in their attacks.

 

But we can agree to disagree.

 

And I think Dobler is correct in asserting that the way some people offer their "moral" support (outrage) can entirely put the intended receiver of the message off and put up walls. Insults are rarely helpful in trying to explain one's point.

[whichwayisup]

I've always said and still say, there's a big difference between harsh advice and being rude. If the respect is there, no name calling, there's nothing wrong with harsh advice. Sure, there are some (both BS and OW) who take things to a level and it gets nasty, but I haven't seen that in a very long time.

 

Words can jump off a page one way, when infact it's meant another.. Words can be taken out of context..

 

Bottomline is, if there is a reply that the original poster finds offensive, or anyone else, use the alert us key and let the mods/admin decide what to do next.. Reacting to it and typing a response only makes things worse and then the fighting starts.

[NoIDidn't]

I'm sorry to have annoyed you but I'm equally annoyed when people make analogies using only the worst sorts of characters to compare to. I have no intention of turning this into a discourse regarding rapists and criminals but instead truly believe a better analogy could have been found. People in affairs are in no way on the same level as rapists and criminals and I feel it was insidiously insulting to have used this. You feel it is a distraction and I feel it can further encourage the more vocal bashers to feel fully righteous in their attacks.

 

But we can agree to disagree.

 

And I think Dobler is correct in asserting that the way some people offer their "moral" support (outrage) can entirely put the intended receiver of the message off and put up walls. Insults are rarely helpful in trying to explain one's point.

 

I LOVE the fact that you only quoted the first part of my post. Its like you didn't bother to read beyond the part that got a reaction out of you.

 

We don't need to agree to disagree because if you bothered to read any further you would have seen that we agree. Not totally but still there is agreement.

 

I do feel it is a distraction because even your attempt to call them on it creates more drama to feed those interested in bashing be they OPs or non-OPs (because not everyone bashing you guys in here is a BS, there are still some people who just disagree with cheating and don't feel that those who participate willingly to their own hurt deserve any support - not my feeling but a reality for many people).

[littleflowerpot]

Of course they're not, but by the same token it is rarely helpful when a poster adopts a "hands on hips" kind of defiance, saying things like they don't care who they hurt as long as they get what they want, which often happens. I've seen it way too many times. It's not like they are then looking for empathetic assistance. In these instances, IMO all they want is a gaggle of "yes men."

 

I don't come here as often as I once did so maybe I have missed these types of posts but I have not seen very many where the OW/OM says they don't care who they hurt. Most often I see posts where the OW/OM is conflicted and is seeking advice or at the very least venting frustrations and sadness.

 

I think there is a difference in OW/OM coming here to vent or talk out their pain and frustrations and coming here to say f**k you to a BS. I don't see very much of the latter although I could be wrong and I've somehow just missed it.

 

My point is there is a way to talk to each other without alienating each other thereby virtually assuring anything helpful being said to the OW/OM. When I say "helpful" that does not necessarily mean saying something the OW/OM necessarily wants to hear. My mother often gave me advice that I probably didn't want to hear but she tried to give me that advice in a way that did not push me away and allow the merits of her arguments to fall on deaf ears. Do you understand what I mean?

[NoIDidn't]

Bottomline is, if there is a reply that the original poster finds offensive, or anyone else, use the alert us key and let the mods/admin decide what to do next.. Reacting to it and typing a response only makes things worse and then the fighting starts.

 

Whichway, you've had to say this so much in here lately, you might as well make it your siggie. LOL.

 

Its a shame that it seems people have much thinner skin in general nowadays. Poor Mods. They have to actually decipher through this mess to determine what was actually an insult and what reader was just whining because they heard something they didn't like.

 

Yeah, some posters are rude. But some are just honest and direct. There is a difference. And it can be seen by those not interested in only hearing their own POV, IMO.

[whichwayisup]

Whichway, you've had to say this so much in here lately, you might as well make it your siggie. LOL.

 

Holy crap, did I already post this in this thread? Seriously, I have bad PMS, a low grade fever today and earlier in the week I wasn't feel well, so I could be losing my mind.. Or just getting old!

[littleflowerpot]

I LOVE the fact that you only quoted the first part of my post. Its like you didn't bother to read beyond the part that got a reaction out of you.

 

We don't need to agree to disagree because if you bothered to read any further you would have seen that we agree. Not totally but still there is agreement.

 

I do feel it is a distraction because even your attempt to call them on it creates more drama to feed those interested in bashing be they OPs or non-OPs (because not everyone bashing you guys in here is a BS, there are still some people who just disagree with cheating and don't feel that those who participate willingly to their own hurt deserve any support - not my feeling but a reality for many people).

 

I read the whole thing. I apologize if I did indeed miss part of your argument and will reread it. I simply quoted the section I did because I had a slight disagreement with it. And you must have known that calling me annoying would have had an effect. I am human and was annoyed by your annoyance.

 

I'm also sorry you feel my disagreement with the way the poster made that analogy was a distraction. I still feel more care should be made with some of the things we say and that the poster used an extreme analogy to further imply something very negative. I feel that the analogy was just as drama producing to feed those interested in bashing by helping them to feel self righteous.

[Reggie]

On the analogy thing, I think it is actually fairly simple to see that these analogies do not mean that the person making the analogy equates the two behaviors. The analogy simply demonstrates a principle.

In chooisng rapists, there is probably some effort to demonstrate that the offens of cheating is more serious than a parking ticket, I suppose. And, clearly it is with the amount of trauma caused.

I've read a couple things by folks practicing as therapists in this field which state that the trauma caused by an A is percieved as greater by folks who are victims of both sexual assault and infidelity.

For what it is worth, I've been through both and the affair hurt more. The assault was by far scarier, but the affair cut deeper.

[littleflowerpot]

On the analogy thing, I think it is actually fairly simple to see that these analogies do not mean that the person making the analogy equates the two behaviors. The analogy simply demonstrates a principle.

In chooisng rapists, there is probably some effort to demonstrate that the offens of cheating is more serious than a parking ticket, I suppose. And, clearly it is with the amount of trauma caused.

I've read a couple things by folks practicing as therapists in this field which state that the trauma caused by an A is percieved as greater by folks who are victims of both sexual assault and infidelity.

For what it is worth, I've been through both and the affair hurt more. The assault was by far scarier, but the affair cut deeper.

 

I don't know what I believe in regards to which trauma caused most pain. I've been sexually assaulted (as a child) and been cheated on. Both traumas caused a lot of pain but I think, for me, the trauma and physical, mental and emotional pain of the sexual abuse has had far more lasting impact. I don't know if that makes me rare.

[NoIDidn't]

I read the whole thing. I apologize if I did indeed miss part of your argument and will reread it. I simply quoted the section I did because I had a slight disagreement with it. And you must have known that calling me annoying would have had an effect. I am human and was annoyed by your annoyance.

 

I'm also sorry you feel my disagreement with the way the poster made that analogy was a distraction. I still feel more care should be made with some of the things we say and that the poster used an extreme analogy to further imply something very negative. I feel that the analogy was just as drama producing to feed those interested in bashing by helping them to feel self righteous.

 

I'm in no position to tell you not to disagree with another poster. It was already said in this thread that that's what the Ignore and "Alert Us" features are for.

 

I agree with your assessment of the analogy. It was intended to pull at your heart strings. To make you feel sympathy towards the one you helped betray. Like I said, I've been guilty of it myself. I am trying to learn a better way to say what I mean without evoking such extreme images. It is possible.

 

I certainly didn't mean to make you feel that I felt you were an annoyance. I don't feel that way. But it IS annoying when posters fall for the bait and enter into an argument about a non-issue. I'm pretty certain that you aren't part of a roving band of female rapists hellbent on defiling married men.

 

So we agree, mostly. I just feel its unproductive to argue with that posters view when it takes the thread so far off topic. What we are talking about is far more on topic than the rapist angle. Because we are talking about how to deal with posters that we may find *annoying*, rude, or feel are bashing.

 

That's all I'm saying.

[NoIDidn't]

I don't know what I believe in regards to which trauma caused most pain. I've been sexually assaulted (as a child) and been cheated on. Both traumas caused a lot of pain but I think, for me, the trauma and physical, mental and emotional pain of the sexual abuse has had far more lasting impact. I don't know if that makes me rare.

 

You are not rare in that. I've had similar experiences plus a sexual assault by a next door neighbor that no one wanted to touch with a ten foot pole considering a month before it was consensual.

 

I think the traumas become linked. It can become a "why me" thing and cause us to feel like victims. But I've never like the thought that I was someone's victim. Target at one time? Yes. But I don't play the victim if I can help it and am aware of it when I do it.

 

I am sorry for your experience with sexual abuse as a child, too.

[dobler33]

wow, look at all this activity and healthy debate! mostly respectful and articulate, for which i thank you. a couple of points:

 

someone said that only mods are able to tell people what and where to post. of course this is true. i was merely voicing the opinions i've read by a certain population on this site who are confounded as to why they are attacked for expressing their feelings about their affairs on a forum which purports to be for this purpose. it is a request, although admittedly a fervant and impassioned one.

 

i can't speak to whether or not OP's should post on the infidelity forum. i have not done so because the issues for which i was seeking support were more specifically met by the stated intent of this forum. but i would hold that OP's who go into the infidelity forum and say cruel and unsupportive things to BS's are equally disrespectful and should also be asked to stop. by the logic presented here in this thread by many posters OW's should be able to post in infidelity as long as they are compassionate and interested in more than abusing the other side for the purpose of getting back at total strangers. i'm advocating respect for all parties, even the ones whose actions bring up painful feelings.

 

and i think there was something about "permission", that if you don't want to hear dissenting views then you are looking for permission. a) i am not bagging on dissenting views. i'm bagging on mean grumpy disrespectful language perpetrated by people acting on their own narrow agendas. b) once again, support does not have to be support for the behavior. there is a difference between support for the behavior and support for the person. it is just not that hard to do, as long as you are genuinely interested in the wellfare of the person in question. c) i don't mean to suggest that i don't get angry, that i am some kind of beatific enlightened saint. puhleeze. i get just as pissed as anyone. but usually i try not to take it out on complete strangers.

 

that being said, let the debate rage on! debate is awesome, abuse is shi**y.

[pkn06002]

I think that you are making very valid points, Dobie, but you also need to try to understand the RAGE and impotence that the BS'S feel and their very human desire to strike back at the perceived threat (WS & OW/OM.) These BS'S may not be able to give expression to these feelings in their real-life situations, and so, come to the OW forum, and attempt to find relief by bashing other OW/OM's. A form of catharsis (?) My suggestion would be to try to defuse the worst of these situations, with compassion. When I finally became mature enough to try to rectify the harm I had caused to several marriages, I would go to the BS'S and give them the opportunity to vent their rage against me. I had abuse heaped on me by the shovel-full, but as long as there was no physical attack, I would not defend myself nor my actions. I found that this " act of atonement", helped me with my own healing. I owed them that much. (closure). Unless we have been on both sides of the equation, can we OW/OM'S ever really understand the true horror that many BS'S feel? Maybe by helping BS'S rebuild their lives, we can rebuild our own.

 

Then the types of BS's you are mentioning need to find there own threads to engage in, instead of TJ the threads of people that are hurting as much as they are. If they don't like the topic of the thread, stay out of the thread.

 

Sorry feeling "compassion" for people that want to attack you that YOU DON'T KNOW screw that!@

 

Your act of atonement might of worked for you, for me NOPE has just the opposite effect. You dare to heap abuse on me I will throw it right back at you, which is the reason I rarely post here anymore. I don't need to bickering that BS's (and supporters) feel they have the RIGHT to dish out to total STRANGERS.

[littleflowerpot]

You are not rare in that. I've had similar experiences plus a sexual assault by a next door neighbor that no one wanted to touch with a ten foot pole considering a month before it was consensual.

 

I think the traumas become linked. It can become a "why me" thing and cause us to feel like victims. But I've never like the thought that I was someone's victim. Target at one time? Yes. But I don't play the victim if I can help it and am aware of it when I do it.

 

I am sorry for your experience with sexual abuse as a child, too.

 

I actually feel since I was a small child that I was a victim but I try not to let that define me. I WAS a victim but I am a victim no more kind of thing.

 

And thank you. I, too, am sorry for your assault. That is a terrible thing.

 

I'm pretty certain that you aren't part of a roving band of female rapists hellbent on defiling married men.

 

Actually I am. It's the most fun I've had in years!!