BCCA Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Did you really just correct my spelling? This is a message board, not my final exam for English class, relax. You've got it all wrong brotha - extrinsic motivation is one conditioinal on external rewards (e.g. money, respect, whatever); intrinic is doing something for the sake of it, for the sense of satisfaction of doing it, regardless of any external rewards that may or may not occur.. Exactly. And there are counter arguments to any theory, that's why it's a theory and not a fact. Nothing is 100% all of the time when it comes to relationships, but there are usually general guidelines that apply. You can't discount all of it if you like, but some if it is pretty solid.
mortensorchid Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Hmm ... That's an interesting theory you have. Exactly how are nice guys / bad boys "made"? That's given me something to think about, if nothing else practical. Thanks.
You'reasian Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Why are nice guys such nice guys? Because of their mothers, why? I'm a guy that started bringing girls to my house and noticed how my mother got jealous of girls that came over. Then how my mother would come over and try to comfort me, she would start doing things for me, call me more often, she was being clingy and still is, drove me nuts. "She was putting me in the little BOY place." While I needed to be pushed out and be a man. I didnt have a father while growing up, and my mother didnt date much and the guys she dated were nice guys. I believe that mothers need to let go, stop comforting their sons when they reach puberty because If they don't, their sons will keep craving that comfort, like an addictive craving. Always looking for that comfort. So when they start to date, they treat EVERY woman like their mother; always craving the comfort. A female wants to be treated like a lover, not a mother. Thats why nice guys finish last! They treat every girl like a mother; makes em go insane. Jerks are guys that ignore their mothers; if you have no respect for your mother, how can you possibly have respect for another woman. I say to respect your mother and don't go to her for comfort and don't let her comfort you(Put you in your little boy place). A good percentage of mothers are clingy, thats why you should move away and still respect her. When animals are grown enough, they don't stick around their mother; they move on and develop independence, get social, make love. Get active, get busy, be human. Plain and simple, nice guys NEED to drop the addiction for comfort. You drop that addiction, be yourself, you are your own man. To all the nice guys. I don't follow your theory - as I know gents who grew up with both parents who are nice guys because they are well-mannered and were raised with etiquette - despite how outdated the etiquette may be. How about nice guys who are far away from their mothers? Geographically? Emotionally? Both? Does your theory still hold? I'd wager that there are even some of us guys out there who have nice guy tendencies but have been through strings of ONS, random hook-ups, short-term dates, open relationships throughout their life etc. - or maybe I don't know what the **** I'm talking about Not giving you a hard time man, just testing your work. Me - go out, venture, get active? I've never done that - gotta stay in my confort zones. I'm too intimidated to get out, meet the ladies - maybe a little shy on the dance floor with my two left feet....
samspade Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 "Nice guy" as a label is a bit of a misnomer. People ask, "What's wrong with being nice?" Nothing at all. However, the term "nice guy" doesn't refer to someone who is being nice out of the goodness of his heart, whatever he may tell you. A "nice guy" is someone who is attempting to manipulate a female into liking him by supplicating himself to her. He attempts to woo her by acting as a friend, thinking she will fall in love with him after she gets to like him. He tries to buy her affections with flowers, chocolates, and dinner. He whines and complains when she rejects him and places the blame on her when it belongs thoroughly on him. It's as much of a game as any other ploy. But the "nice guy" isn't as vilified because he can always take cover under the "I was just being nice" defense. The "nice guy" is a man who refuses to take a risk; taking risks is part of being a man. Why does he behave this way? Are smothering mothers to blame? Possibly. I think a large part of it has to do with a hyperfeminized pop culture, in which storybooks, movies, television shows, and popular music are infused with the notion that the "nice guy" gets the girl in the end. These story lines are attractive to females; perhaps they are a substitute for the female desire to "tame" a real man into a nice guy. I have no idea. What I do know is that American men buy into this crap hook, line, and sinker, because they aren't taught any different. As a result, they make obtaining a "soul mate" the centerpiece of their lives, often going directly from mommy to wife, without experiencing any real maturation as single men. Nobody told these "nice guys" that the key to their happiness isn't inside a vagina, that they may meet and fall in love and have their hearts broken many times, and that they must make the most of their own lives first rather than putting the first woman they meet on a pedestal like a princess. I'll add that when the "nice guy" DOES get his heart broken, he makes the mistake of seeking support and advice (and pity) from his female friends (or dishonest female or other nice guy Loveshackers) who remind him how nice he is, how he'll meet someone someday, and how he should always "just be himself." Some women even go so far as to say how much they would love it if their BFs gave them flowers, chocolates, etc. The NG is fooled into thinking it wasn't HIS fault, and so he goes and repeats the process, either for the rest of his life, or until he changes his ways. Many nice guys do eventually get married, often to a woman who is tired of "jerks" and "the bar scene" (read: sleeping around) and wants a provider who won't stand his ground. Thus the nice guy has found his "soul mate," but he has not yet learned to be a real man, and is doomed to a life of emotional castration. You see it all the time.
ruggy Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 Going to the girls and nice guys, I did some experimenting a while back on some adventures in online dating and while I know none of this is valid or could even be considered as valid, this is what I found. I'm in my late 20's and any girl that I dated in their early 20's was all about the bad guy and generally friendzoned me or never called back. When I acted like a total tool to the early 20's group, they came after me like flies. Conversly when I dated the girls in the earyl 30's it was almost the exact opposite. Generally the girls in the early 30's preferred the nicer guy, not doormat guy but nice guy. That is not true. I dated a woman in her 30's. Matched on every level (came out of her own mouth, err text). Two months later, a text message canceling the date the next day and then a week later we ended the relationship cause she did not have that burning desire in her heart or something. Many of them are looking for a knight in shining armor and anything less they are just not good enough.
WTRanger Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 That is not true. I dated a woman in her 30's. Matched on every level (came out of her own mouth, err text). Two months later, a text message canceling the date the next day and then a week later we ended the relationship cause she did not have that burning desire in her heart or something. Many of them are looking for a knight in shining armor and anything less they are just not good enough. I didn't necessarily say it was all true. I was just giving my experience. Believe me, a study that involved 8 females met through online dating isn't exactly highly scientific. However in my little 3 month experiment, that is what I noticed between 10 years of age difference. In my very small group of people I speed dated.
LovieDove24 Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 Just like the "Doormat No More" book for men there is also a "Why Men Love Bitches" book for women. It is all quite silly in my opinion. I believe what every person wants is someone who is independent yet caring. Kind yet stern when needed. The reason for needing all of these "opposites" is because we seek well rounded, emotionally healthy individuals. Period. That is, unless you are *not quite* at that point in your life yet or you're just looking for some fun...then the other options may be more appealing. But anyone looking for the long term should be looking for someone who can be a little bit sweet and a little bit sour. Without it, you're either going to deal with a drama queen the rest of your life or a doormat.
ruggy Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 Just like the "Doormat No More" book for men there is also a "Why Men Love Bitches" book for women. It is all quite silly in my opinion. I believe what every person wants is someone who is independent yet caring. Kind yet stern when needed. The reason for needing all of these "opposites" is because we seek well rounded, emotionally healthy individuals. Period. That is, unless you are *not quite* at that point in your life yet or you're just looking for some fun...then the other options may be more appealing. But anyone looking for the long term should be looking for someone who can be a little bit sweet and a little bit sour. Without it, you're either going to deal with a drama queen the rest of your life or a doormat. Wish more people felt that way. Most seem to look through the world in rose colored glasses thinking the world revolves around their (male or female) lives.
Author lifereversal Posted May 24, 2009 Author Posted May 24, 2009 "Nice guy" as a label is a bit of a misnomer. People ask, "What's wrong with being nice?" Nothing at all. However, the term "nice guy" doesn't refer to someone who is being nice out of the goodness of his heart, whatever he may tell you. A "nice guy" is someone who is attempting to manipulate a female into liking him by supplicating himself to her. He attempts to woo her by acting as a friend, thinking she will fall in love with him after she gets to like him. He tries to buy her affections with flowers, chocolates, and dinner. He whines and complains when she rejects him and places the blame on her when it belongs thoroughly on him. It's as much of a game as any other ploy. But the "nice guy" isn't as vilified because he can always take cover under the "I was just being nice" defense. The "nice guy" is a man who refuses to take a risk; taking risks is part of being a man. Why does he behave this way? Are smothering mothers to blame? Possibly. I think a large part of it has to do with a hyperfeminized pop culture, in which storybooks, movies, television shows, and popular music are infused with the notion that the "nice guy" gets the girl in the end. These story lines are attractive to females; perhaps they are a substitute for the female desire to "tame" a real man into a nice guy. I have no idea. What I do know is that American men buy into this crap hook, line, and sinker, because they aren't taught any different. As a result, they make obtaining a "soul mate" the centerpiece of their lives, often going directly from mommy to wife, without experiencing any real maturation as single men. Nobody told these "nice guys" that the key to their happiness isn't inside a vagina, that they may meet and fall in love and have their hearts broken many times, and that they must make the most of their own lives first rather than putting the first woman they meet on a pedestal like a princess. I'll add that when the "nice guy" DOES get his heart broken, he makes the mistake of seeking support and advice (and pity) from his female friends (or dishonest female or other nice guy Loveshackers) who remind him how nice he is, how he'll meet someone someday, and how he should always "just be himself." Some women even go so far as to say how much they would love it if their BFs gave them flowers, chocolates, etc. The NG is fooled into thinking it wasn't HIS fault, and so he goes and repeats the process, either for the rest of his life, or until he changes his ways. Many nice guys do eventually get married, often to a woman who is tired of "jerks" and "the bar scene" (read: sleeping around) and wants a provider who won't stand his ground. Thus the nice guy has found his "soul mate," but he has not yet learned to be a real man, and is doomed to a life of emotional castration. You see it all the time. This is really good, goes more in great depth. Spot on. I enjoyed it, funny and very true. Recently I've been testing girls with being witty/flirtatious and their need of attention(sex) instead of the real need of appreciation. If there is guys with being in a "mind state" of being "nice/manipulative", then girls are "crave attention/manipulative". I remembered a female friend, what I noticed is when she showed her father anything she did, paintings, school work, etc.. he didnt give a 2 sh*ts about her, she craved etheir attention or for her father to be proud of her. We all know woman crave attention. To me any woman that craves attention is just looking for a "booty call". I'm trying to understand the root cause of why females crave attention, daddy didnt give them any? I believe understanding the root cause of why people act like they do, from their history, thats how they can take a positive path. Like psychological disorders are caused by emotional trauma, not drugs(marijuana, cocaine, etc...), sure drugs make psychological condition worse, but the root cause is the emotional trauma. It's true what your saying about females always trying to "tame" a real man. I believe those are the "crave attention/manipulative" types of females. When they see they can't tame them, they call the guys "Aholes". The only movie probably ever made which is real life romance is "Great Expectations".
ruggy Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 This is really good, goes more in great depth. Spot on. I enjoyed it, funny and very true. Recently I've been testing girls with being witty/flirtatious and their need of attention(sex) instead of the real need of appreciation. If there is guys with being in a "mind state" of being "nice/manipulative", then girls are "crave attention/manipulative". I remembered a female friend, what I noticed is when she showed her father anything she did, paintings, school work, etc.. he didnt give a 2 sh*ts about her, she craved etheir attention or for her father to be proud of her. We all know woman crave attention. To me any woman that craves attention is just looking for a "booty call". I'm trying to understand the root cause of why females crave attention, daddy didnt give them any? I believe understanding the root cause of why people act like they do, from their history, thats how they can take a positive path. Like psychological disorders are caused by emotional trauma, not drugs(marijuana, cocaine, etc...), sure drugs make psychological condition worse, but the root cause is the emotional trauma. It's true what your saying about females always trying to "tame" a real man. I believe those are the "crave attention/manipulative" types of females. When they see they can't tame them, they call the guys "Aholes". The only movie probably ever made which is real life romance is "Great Expectations". Moreover, the problem with women who date an already tame man is they get bored cause there is no challenge.
SoulSearch_CO Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 Wow. Just like all generalizations, I disagree. My BF has a very good relationship with his mother, but would not tolerate being treated like a little boy by either her or me. She is a great lady. Doesn't act jealous of me, doesn't try to sabotage our relationship. We get along great. I'd say what you're talking about is an UNHEALTHY relationship with one's mother. Unhealthy in either direction is not good, IMO. Either clinging to her, or ignoring her. My BF and his mother have a healthy relationship and I love it. It's part of what makes him a GREAT guy.
Land Shark Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 I saw a mother walking with her teenage son today. She had her arm around his shoulder and they were touching and really close. I thought to myself, "you fool! You're ruining him!" He's going to be such a sap. A momma's boy if nothing else.
SoulSearch_CO Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 I saw a mother walking with her teenage son today. She had her arm around his shoulder and they were touching and really close. I thought to myself, "you fool! You're ruining him!" He's going to be such a sap. A momma's boy if nothing else. See? That's weird. I think we know what Freud would say.
IcemanJB Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 The stereotype is so ****ed up that I actually get worried every time somebody tells me "you're nice guy" , and even wonder whether to get insulted. Which, admittedly isn't that often, but keeps me on my toes anyway . Whew, I'm not the only one! A girl I was dating called me "nice" all the time (while we were dating), and eventually I just told her not to use that term because it bugged me. She kept saying she didn't understand why I didn't like it, that it was a compliment, etc...I'm like: "just use a synonym." haha
samspade Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 This reminds me of something funny I did. I was out with people from work a few years back, and I overheard a few of the girls were talking to one guy in particular, Dave. They were discussing his dating life, or lack thereof, I suppose. They were all saying things like, "Awww, Dave is such a nice guy....so sweet...a girl would be lucky to date him" in a well-intended yet condescending way. Just the way guys are discussing on this thread. And it was true - Dave WAS a nice guy, too nice, and despite having a successful career and a great sense of humor, he didn't have much luck in love...because he was so "nice." As a social mini-experiment, thinking quickly, I chimed in: "You haven't seen how Dave treats women he dates." They all turned and, jaws dropping, asked, "What? What do you mean??" "Dave treats women like crap. That's all I'm gonna say." And that was all I said. The females' tone immediately changed from pity to almost competitive curiosity. "What does Sam mean, Dave? Like crap? Like a player? A jerk? What? What?" Already embarrassed, Dave dummied up and tried to change the subject, perhaps enjoying the sudden romantic capital I had created out of thin air and not wanting to spoil the moment. They were practically eating out of his hand! A couple of guys present whispered, "Sam, you're a genius. You completely turned the tables for him." Again - just an unscientific experiment.
Trialbyfire Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 I really like men who get along with their mothers. It's nice to see a grown man not afraid to put his arm around his mother and give her an affectionate hug. Machismo or fear of peer opinion, which is one and the same thing, is so not attractive. The stereotypical "nice guy" is a guy who's like an amorphous blob. Whether his mother's to blame or not, is moot. What's relevant, is that he chooses to remain a victim, by blaming his mother, girlfriend, etc, for his own lack of success in whatever aspect of his life.
Midas Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 I still have a good relationship with my mom. My parents sheltered me to some degree, considering the fact that I'm the youngest of three kids. I never really had a great relationship with my dad though. My grandma, rest her soul, really smothered me the most. Truely Nice guys do seem to finish last & why is that? (Because the wolves in sheep's clothing who claim to be "nice guys" give us a bad reputation.)
kizik Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 It seems like every day there is a new "nice guy" thread being created. Ultimately I feel that if you're not getting what you want, you need to change what you do. Who was it that said that the definition of a fool is someone who does the same thing all the time but expects different results? I'm a nice guy, but that phrase in itself has gained such an unnecessarily negative stigma that I, like the capitalized Sam Spade, don't like being called one. Still, since a painful breakup last year, I have changed my mentality and approach and have basically realized that I would rather spend the majority of my time in solitude than to spend it with anyone who was treating me less than friendly. Isn't the point of friends and lovers to enjoy spending time together? There are so many dysfunctional relationships in this world that they have become the norm. Nice guys like me get their hearts stomped on, and it forces us to evaluate our doormat tendencies in the relationship. I did use covert contracts, of course I didn't realize it and I am not sure I was always expecting something in return. There was a genuine generosity on my part and not all of it can be summed up to being an angry sleazebag. Having said that, though, I still believe Glover's book is a must-read for nice guys.
You'reasian Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 Truely Nice guys do seem to finish last & why is that? (Because the wolves in sheep's clothing who claim to be "nice guys" give us a bad reputation.) You can't blame "wolf in sheeps clothing" or bad guys. Dating behavior is dictated ultimately by what's easy, comfortable, one's own preferences and successes.
Trialbyfire Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 For all you self-professed "nice guys", maybe showing a little compassion and empathy for others, might help you understand that the world doesn't revolve around your needs. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189547 You have to give a little, to get.
Midas Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 I was being fecetious about the wolves comment. The world doesn't revolve around me, and thank god for that. I'm an average guy, who can be a nice guy, but I'm sure I have deep-rooted issues that would also put me in the same category as the wolves. I'm not saying I'm blameless, that's for sure.
samspade Posted May 25, 2009 Posted May 25, 2009 The stereotypical "nice guy" is a guy who's like an amorphous blob. Whether his mother's to blame or not, is moot. What's relevant, is that he chooses to remain a victim, by blaming his mother, girlfriend, etc, for his own lack of success in whatever aspect of his life. That is a great way of saying it. A real man (not a nice guy, not a jerk) lives his life independently and does not base his happiness on whether or not he has a GF or female companionship. He should be happy and self-respecting whether he is single or drowning in females. He must also be willing to walk away from any woman for the proper reasons. Too many "nice guys" are desperate for girlfriends when they're single, and fearful of losing them when they actually get one. I'll add that the same should hold true for any self-respecting woman, though they don't suffer under the "nice" stigma.
Asami Posted May 25, 2009 Posted May 25, 2009 All that nice guys finish last stuff is for people who just want insta-sex and nothing more. The way to prey upon women is to be mean and see which are vulnerable and respond favorably to abuse. Then the man takes advantage of her susceptibility to abuse and compulsion to recreate unhealthy dynamics and gets laid. Deep down, they both feel like **** about it in the end. Not a good way to go.[/QUOTE] wow very interesting concept, actually I believe it. some people are pretty messed up.
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