lifereversal Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Why are nice guys such nice guys? Because of their mothers, why? I'm a guy that started bringing girls to my house and noticed how my mother got jealous of girls that came over. Then how my mother would come over and try to comfort me, she would start doing things for me, call me more often, she was being clingy and still is, drove me nuts. "She was putting me in the little BOY place." While I needed to be pushed out and be a man. I didnt have a father while growing up, and my mother didnt date much and the guys she dated were nice guys. I believe that mothers need to let go, stop comforting their sons when they reach puberty because If they don't, their sons will keep craving that comfort, like an addictive craving. Always looking for that comfort. So when they start to date, they treat EVERY woman like their mother; always craving the comfort. A female wants to be treated like a lover, not a mother. Thats why nice guys finish last! They treat every girl like a mother; makes em go insane. Jerks are guys that ignore their mothers; if you have no respect for your mother, how can you possibly have respect for another woman. I say to respect your mother and don't go to her for comfort and don't let her comfort you(Put you in your little boy place). A good percentage of mothers are clingy, thats why you should move away and still respect her. When animals are grown enough, they don't stick around their mother; they move on and develop independence, get social, make love. Get active, get busy, be human. Plain and simple, nice guys NEED to drop the addiction for comfort. You drop that addiction, be yourself, you are your own man. To all the nice guys.
Sam Spade Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 not sure about the 'theory', but mothers for sure can and do do a lot of harm to boys by not letting go. A process that needs to begin in the early teens! nothing worse than a overbearing, quilt-tripping mother .
BCCA Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Nice guys finish last because they are not a challenge, and by being so nice, they are usually not in a position of power, either at work or in social settings. Some women may disagree, but one theory says that things like being sweet, kind, considerate, funny, down to earth, etc makes up about 10% of what it takes to attract a woman. They are more of what you call 'throw in' benefits, kind of like if you meet a girl who is hot AND happens to like sports. Yeah, its cool that she likes sports, but thats not why youre dating her. Being nice doesnt mean that you run to your mom for comfort. Its usually more that you avoid conflict by putting the needs of others above your own, but if you read Glover's book 'No more Mr. Nice guy', you would see that 'nice guys' generally arent very nice at all. Theyre manipulative, dishonest, and only do nice things because they feel like they're 'owed' some form of payback by the person theyre doing it for, such as not being dumped, sex, money, or some other favor. They dont come out and tell you this, they create 'covert contracts' in their mind, whereas the details are not openly discussed, and therefore, they spend much of their lives dissapointed. Being a nice guy in the typical sense usually means being a doormat. Its ok to be nice and friendly, but you cant do so just to garner the acceptance of other people. Also, there is nothing mean about walking away from a person or situation that isnt working for you, and youre not a bad person for doing so. Breaking the nice guy problem is about a lot more than your mom coddling you. Sure, it doesnt help, but its certainly not the whole problem.
Mycroft Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 I can't pretend to understand women at all, but just about everyone likes nice people, but when dealing with friends and especially relationships, people don't like boring, which a lot of nice guys are. Its not the nice that is boring, and its not the jerk that is fun. Its something entirely different, though hard for me to explain(or completely understand myself).
loveslife Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Nice guys finish last because they are not a challenge, and by being so nice, they are usually not in a position of power, either at work or in social settings. --------------------- Being nice doesnt mean that you run to your mom for comfort. Its usually more that you avoid conflict by putting the needs of others above your own, but if you read Glover's book 'No more Mr. Nice guy', you would see that 'nice guys' generally arent very nice at all. Theyre manipulative, dishonest, and only do nice things because they feel like they're 'owed' some form of payback by the person theyre doing it for, such as not being dumped, sex, money, or some other favor. They dont come out and tell you this, they create 'covert contracts' in their mind, whereas the details are not openly discussed, and therefore, they spend much of their lives dissapointed. I agree with both of the above based on recent experience. I reunited with an old friend. To me, looking back, he was everything I wanted in a romantic relationship. He was a NICE GUY. And I got involved wishing that all these years I had been with someone like the person I remembered. Well, now he's gotten to a position of power in his career - and I can see how important that is to him, and how that drive has changed him. Also, and this is big - I do believe Glover has a point from what you said above. He was super nice to me until we were in a situation where there could have been sex. There wasn't. And he changed afterwards. He stopped being interested in me. I felt like he was, what you said, disappointed at me not living up to his expectations. The thing is, I worried all along that I would fail to live up to his expectations. And I did. And he pulled away without any explanation. Not such a nice guy after all it seems.
motive2002 Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Can you imagine what it would be like.. to have someone always supplicating? Always needy? Always doing things to try and please you? Always tried to share all of your beliefs? How annoying would that be? I understand the mommy thing. Time to get off the teat and start being self reliant.. have your own opinion.. and your own free will. That is why "nice guys" never finish... besides how can you possibly respect someone else if you can't respect yourself?
Author lifereversal Posted May 23, 2009 Author Posted May 23, 2009 I can't pretend to understand women at all, but just about everyone likes nice people, but when dealing with friends and especially relationships, people don't like boring, which a lot of nice guys are. Its not the nice that is boring, and its not the jerk that is fun. Its something entirely different, though hard for me to explain(or completely understand myself). An example is a "nice guy" wont bring up sex, wont tease or embarrass a girl, he won't be fun. He won't be fun because he is in the "little boy place" comfort place. I've been there, brain washed when my mother was being clingy and comforting without noticing she was comforting me, then I noticed. She was around so much that I was talking about her with other friends. Its a mind state I can't explain, I've been different for about a while to the point where I flirt and get excessively intimate. I'm happy for noticing what she was doing to me.
Land Shark Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 The topic of the thread is not "why nice guys get rejected". It's "why nice guys are nice guys". I think LifeReversal makes an excellent point. If what he's saying isn't true in every case, I think something similar to it is.
Sam Spade Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Whoever came up with the "nice guy" label and the associated pejorative meaning deserves to be fed his own balls/brains, or strangled with his or her own intestines. I'm clearly a nice guy, and clearly not a doormat or passive-agressive fag. So wassup? EH? Stoopid...
loveslife Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Whoever came up with the "nice guy" label and the associated pejorative meaning deserves to be fed his own balls/brains, or strangled with his or her own intestines. I'm clearly a nice guy, and clearly not a doormat or passive-agressive fag. So wassup? EH? Stoopid... Too often people confuse kindness with weakness.
motive2002 Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Whoever came up with the "nice guy" label and the associated pejorative meaning deserves to be fed his own balls/brains, or strangled with his or her own intestines. I'm clearly a nice guy, and clearly not a doormat or passive-agressive fag. So wassup? EH? Stoopid... LOL I'm a nice guy dammit! So get the hell out of my way!
Bells Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Why are nice guys such nice guys? Because of their mothers, why? I'm a guy that started bringing girls to my house and noticed how my mother got jealous of girls that came over. Then how my mother would come over and try to comfort me, she would start doing things for me, call me more often, she was being clingy and still is, drove me nuts. "She was putting me in the little BOY place." While I needed to be pushed out and be a man. I didnt have a father while growing up, and my mother didnt date much and the guys she dated were nice guys. I believe that mothers need to let go, stop comforting their sons when they reach puberty because If they don't, their sons will keep craving that comfort, like an addictive craving. Always looking for that comfort. So when they start to date, they treat EVERY woman like their mother; always craving the comfort. A female wants to be treated like a lover, not a mother. Thats why nice guys finish last! They treat every girl like a mother; makes em go insane. Jerks are guys that ignore their mothers; if you have no respect for your mother, how can you possibly have respect for another woman. I say to respect your mother and don't go to her for comfort and don't let her comfort you(Put you in your little boy place). A good percentage of mothers are clingy, thats why you should move away and still respect her. When animals are grown enough, they don't stick around their mother; they move on and develop independence, get social, make love. Get active, get busy, be human. Plain and simple, nice guys NEED to drop the addiction for comfort. You drop that addiction, be yourself, you are your own man. To all the nice guys. Nice guys are only good for long-term stable relationships....mostly involving marriage.
Sam Spade Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 LOL I'm a nice guy dammit! So get the hell out of my way! The stereotype is so ****ed up that I actually get worried every time somebody tells me "you're nice guy" , and even wonder whether to get insulted. Which, admittedly isn't that often, but keeps me on my toes anyway .
ruggy Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 I read the book by a rec from someone here. That is not me by the T. I have been called a cute guy, great guy, I do not believe I have been called a "nice guy". But, if treating a woman with respect and dignity, then I am a nice guy. But not how Glover said or how described by the OP. While I think I have a good relationship with my parents, there are certain topics that are off limits. relationships is one of them. Its none of their business. Never had the problem of bring a girl over, whereas I never brought a girl home. Who wants your parents nagging you about that. Moved out after high school many moons ago. I do thinks for the women I date not to get something in return or their approval, but because I enjoy it and I think that they'd enjoy too. Don't understand that is bad or looks weak...
Sam Spade Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Too often people confuse kindness with weakness. Yes, and beats me why. It's pretty illogical. Strong people who have nothing to prove can - and usually are - kind. Weak and insecure people who try to prove otherwise are usually tempted to engage in show of force, while this is in fact a show of weakness. (The brute force approach only works in gang farfare, and even then, most criminals acknowledge that even if you don't want to kill somebody, you *have to*, if your streed cred is to survive .) Other than that, it's not rocket science - establish helahty boundaries, keep them, and as long as people don't violate them, there's no reason to be a dick...
Ruby Slippers Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 All that nice guys finish last stuff is for people who just want insta-sex and nothing more. The way to prey upon women is to be mean and see which are vulnerable and respond favorably to abuse. Then the man takes advantage of her susceptibility to abuse and compulsion to recreate unhealthy dynamics and gets laid. Deep down, they both feel like **** about it in the end. Not a good way to go.
BCCA Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Whoever came up with the "nice guy" label and the associated pejorative meaning deserves to be fed his own balls/brains, or strangled with his or her own intestines. I'm clearly a nice guy, and clearly not a doormat or passive-agressive fag. So wassup? EH? Stoopid... Being nice isn't a problem, it's your reasons for doing so. The nice guy theory Glover has is that guys who keep getting dumped usually put the needs of others above their own to avoid conflict, but do so with a feeling that they should be owed later. They're not being nice solely to be nice, they're doing so because they expect something in return. It's manipulative, and because the nice guys Glover talks about want to avoid conflict so much, they lie in order to make people happy. Even if it's not a big lie, they're still dishonest. So, the whole point is that the 'nice guys' he's talking about aren't really nice guys at all. They're whiny, manipulative, drama queens. All that nice guys finish last stuff is for people who just want insta-sex and nothing more. The way to prey upon women is to be mean and see which are vulnerable and respond favorably to abuse. Then the man takes advantage of her susceptibility to abuse and compulsion to recreate unhealthy dynamics and gets laid. Deep down, they both feel like **** about it in the end. Not a good way to go. Women don't want sensitive, weak-willed men. They want MEN. I'm not saying the guy has to drag his knuckles and pound his chest, but you can't be affraid of asking your gf for what you want, sexually or otherwise. 'Nice Guys' don't ask for what they want, they bend over backward FIRST, and then expect it to mean that what they want is theirs. It's called a 'covert contract'.
BlueHarvest Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 *PSSST* Glover wrote a book to......(ready for it?).... MAKE MONEY!!!!!!!!!! There is no other reason for writers to write books. Some of the advice may be true, but I would take what Glover says with a grain of salt instead of treating it like law. Also, I'm a nice guy but I'm gradually defining my boundaries of such. A nice guy that is just nice in order to get laid will act like a doormat. A nice guy that acts nice in order to find a fufilling relationship will make sure he is compatible with said partner, in order to do so you have to find out what your different beliefs and viewpoints are. Agreeing with everything she says is not ok. If you guys have alot in common then that's a plus, but it doesn't mean you are meant for each other, it just means that...you have alot in common. Also: Anyone ever notice this? Nice guys usually hang out with platonic girls more often then "normal guys" (quotes fully used to interject the irony of the label). And if the nice guy gets "shot down" or "dumped" he usually drags himself back to the girls for advice and they usually say something along the lines of "Oh , she wasn't good enough for you" or "You deserve better, she was a tramp (etc etc)". If the nice guy is so damn nice then why don't the platonic girls he hangs out with ever follow their own advice and go out with him as well? Eh? See what I mean? Damn hypocrites.
loveslife Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Also: Anyone ever notice this? Nice guys usually hang out with platonic girls more often then "normal guys" (quotes fully used to interject the irony of the label). And if the nice guy gets "shot down" or "dumped" he usually drags himself back to the girls for advice and they usually say something along the lines of "Oh , she wasn't good enough for you" or "You deserve better, she was a tramp (etc etc)". If the nice guy is so damn nice then why don't the platonic girls he hangs out with ever follow their own advice and go out with him as well? Eh? See what I mean? Damn hypocrites. I was the platonic friend of a "nice guy" who then went out with him because I wanted a nice guy. Turns out it's not so great. Or at least this one wasn't. And the bottom line, I believe, is he didn't really want a "nice girl." He has always been with b***hes and I think that's what he's comfortable with. Maybe a part of the "nice guy" stereotype is bending over backwards to be with unkind women. There are decent guys who comfortably take up with decent women. But they don't stand out as "nice guys" because they're engaging in healthy relationships. I think you can be a "good man" and engage in a healthy adult relationship with a good woman and not fall into the stereotype of "nice guy." Make any sense?
BlueHarvest Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Well yea, makes perfect sense. The problem therein lies within finding a partner who won't abuse the kindess or mistake it for weakness (as stated on previous posts). There are some guys who are naive (me probably being one of them) who looks for the good in everyone, and will put up with **** because they feel that in the end, people will choose the right thing. The problem is finding someone who holds true the same values and beliefs, is attractive to you and vice-versa, and is ultimately compatiable with you. Add in, work environment, upbringing, educational background, and your location and you unfortunately have alot of obstacles to overcome in order to find that right someone. Given that most people realize those obstacles they tend to compromise on a few things in order to facilitate relationships easier. The problem there is some people will easily recognize when someone is compromising and will, unfortunately, take advantage of said person. That is where kindness is mistaken as weakness.
WTRanger Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 I read the book and while I thought the book had some extremely valid points, a lot of it was written with a skewed perspective. I think the author is the Michael Moore of Nice Guy Self-Help books. Good points, valid points, good book, but also very heavily skewed to one side. What I got from the book in a negative sense was that I should never do anything for anyone because subconsciously I'm making a contract for favors in the future. I shouldn't help a friend move because I'll expect that friend to help when I move. It has nothing to do with respect and gratitude but it has everything to do with what I feel I'm being "owed." I feel like I'm the Godfather and everything I do requires a favor in return. Granted if I help someone move I do not feel they are required to help me but if they just flat out refuse to help on the count of they just don't want to, well then I think that's pretty lame of them. Any relationship, be it friendship or committed should have a structure of a two-way street. Going to the girls and nice guys, I did some experimenting a while back on some adventures in online dating and while I know none of this is valid or could even be considered as valid, this is what I found. I'm in my late 20's and any girl that I dated in their early 20's was all about the bad guy and generally friendzoned me or never called back. When I acted like a total tool to the early 20's group, they came after me like flies. Conversly when I dated the girls in the earyl 30's it was almost the exact opposite. Generally the girls in the early 30's preferred the nicer guy, not doormat guy but nice guy. So I got to thinking and really I'm the same way. While in the past I did enjoy dating the wild, freaky, moody, party girls I'm over that stage now. I'm looking for a girl that I can actually relate to, spend quality time with and possibly start a family with. I'm over the crap that comes with the party girls and I'm starting to look for something a wee bit more stable. I do think though that there is an extremly fine line between nice guy and doormat nice guy. The way I see it, I need to be a caveman but clean shaven and loose the poofy hair. But when the loin cloth comes off, look out.
BCCA Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Glover's motivation for writing the book does not discredit its merrits.
BCCA Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 there is an extremly fine line between nice guy and doormat nice guy I totally agree, and I think this is where many people disagree with the theory. You CAN be a nice guy, but do it because thats who you are, not because you want those around you to accept you. I'm in my late 20's and any girl that I dated in their early 20's was all about the bad guy and generally friendzoned me or never called back. When I acted like a total tool to the early 20's group, they came after me like flies. Conversly when I dated the girls in the earyl 30's it was almost the exact opposite. Generally the girls in the early 30's preferred the nicer guy, not doormat guy but nice guy. This is unfortunately been my experience as well.
BlueHarvest Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Glover's motivation for writing the book does not discredit its merrits. Motivation is the set of reasons that determines one to engage in a particular behavior. A reward, tangible or intangible, is presented after the occurrence of an action (i.e. behavior) with the intent to cause the behavior to occur again. This is done by associating positive meaning to the behavior. Glover's motivation is intrinsic motivation, not extrinsic. This forum is an example of people who have extrinsic motivation, they do things for other people not for themselves. Glover's motivation is intrinsic, motivation to write about a subject for monetary compensation.
Sam Spade Posted May 23, 2009 Posted May 23, 2009 Motivation is the set of reasons that determines one to engage in a particular behavior. A reward, tangible or intangible, is presented after the occurrence of an action (i.e. behavior) with the intent to cause the behavior to occur again. This is done by associating positive meaning to the behavior. Glover's motivation is intrinsic motivation, not extrinsic. This forum is an example of people who have extrinsic motivation, they do things for other people not for themselves. Glover's motivation is intrinsic, motivation to write about a subject for monetary compensation. You've got it all wrong brotha - extrinsic motivation is one conditioinal on external rewards (e.g. money, respect, whatever); intrinic is doing something for the sake of it, for the sense of satisfaction of doing it, regardless of any external rewards that may or may not occur.. I've not read clover's book, and there is no need to - it can be summarized in 1 paragraph (which I agree with). All pop-psychology or pop-anything books are like that: take one easy to digest point and beat it to death while not bothering too much with the counterfactual. Nothing wrong with this i guess, that's the only way to justify writing a whole book... Now more generally, relatioinships inevitably will require every once in a while to put other's needs above your own, so that's where this theory may fall apart.
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