Prenup, who's getting one?

[Trialbyfire]

I'm failing to understand why someone "has" to enforce a prenup. If after 20 years of marriage, you feel that your spouse is entitled to more, it's not as if you can't give him/her more.

[Sam Spade]

If the earnings aren't that disparate, then a divorce settlement would result in pretty much the same outcome that a prenup would mandate.

 

I'm asking all these questions because I understand how prenups work, and I fail to understand why "normal" people enter into them.

 

[by "normal" I refer to people who aren't Hollywood celebrities with billion dollar estates marrying impoverished Hooters waitresses, or whatever the case may be]

 

If the law was that straightforward, then why would these folks need protection? After all, they earned all their millions before the hooters waitress.

 

I have nothing against fair division. But, humans respond to incentives, and in the case of marriage women currently have strong incentive to leave a marriage at the slightest (or wiahout) provocation knowing full well that they are legally guaranteed decent safety net, even (or especially!) if they contributed NOTHING to the marital wealth. That's why almost all of the women here disliked prenups, dressing it up in grand bullshet words about trust, rea love, how this would sour the relationship etc. Whatever. Oh, and ~70% of divorces are initiated by women. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the expected division of assets. So, I find it insulting to make inferences about the quality of a relationship based on the presense of a prenum when people merely attempt to increase the potentially very significant cost of frivolous divorce. That prenups can easily become toothless I understand, but what other options do you really have other than hiring a hitman when your wife turns on you big time?

[samspade]

Get a prenup. You must protect yourself and your assets. What you earn jointly after the marriage is another thing. A prenup is a prophylactic for a man.

 

This is why I think it's a bad idea to get married unless you want children. What - besides raising children in a stable enviornment - can a man get out of a marriage that he can't get as an unmarried man?

 

When you examine marriage, the way the law is set up, a man has plenty to lose, while a woman has plenty to gain. It's that simple. The least you can do is sign a prenup to protect yourself. On what grounds should women object to this notion? Entitlement, which means they are marrying for money as much as for love. If they aren't marrying for money, then a prenup shouldn't bother them, should it?

 

A woman objecting to a prenup is like a man objecting to using a condom. Think about it. Who has the most to lose?

[cbreitel]

If the law was that straightforward, then why would these folks need protection? After all, they earned all their millions before the hooters waitress.

 

Haven't I repeated several times that I think it only makes sense for the "millionaire who marries a waitress"? None of you guys fit into that category, clearly. And do you really think a prenup makes things "straightforward"? None of you can even explain how prenups work!

 

I have nothing against fair division. But, humans respond to incentives, and in the case of marriage women currently have strong incentive to leave a marriage at the slightest (or wiahout) provocation knowing full well that they are legally guaranteed decent safety net, even (or especially!) if they contributed NOTHING to the marital wealth. That's why almost all of the women here disliked prenups, dressing it up in grand bullshet words about trust, rea love, how this would sour the relationship etc. Whatever. Oh, and ~70% of divorces are initiated by women. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the expected division of assets. So, I find it insulting to make inferences about the quality of a relationship based on the presense of a prenum when people merely attempt to increase the potentially very significant cost of frivolous divorce. That prenups can easily become toothless I understand, but what other options do you really have other than hiring a hitman when your wife turns on you big time?

 

I think your lawyers are pulling a fast one on you, and they're making a nice buck on you in the process. They'll make another nice buck during your divorce later, with a nice bonus for fighting over issues created by the prenup.

[cbreitel]

A woman objecting to a prenup is like a man objecting to using a condom. Think about it. Who has the most to lose?

 

This is laughable logic. What is this, 1950?

 

Who has the most to lose? Consider that if a prenup causes a marriage to fail, costs you hundreds of thousands of dollars in attorney fees, and you end up settling on financial terms not that much different from a non-prenup settlement, what you've lost is a lot of money and your family. The notion that "the man" has nothing to lose is an illusion.

[missdependant]

I don't care how ANYONE feels about pre-nuptuals. It is a mutual agreement in MY relationship, and it's a personal decision. When we get married, there will be a contract. When my father passed away, he left a lot to me. When his mother passed away, she left him with a lot. No way in hell am I sharing that, if 20 years down the road he's an abusive alcoholic, jobless, unmotivated and a cheater. I'm not saying this will definitely happen. But IF it happens, I won't feel obligated to share these assets.

 

 

 

I feel better safe than sorry. The same way I wear my seatbelt. I probably won't actually NEED it. But I wear it anyway, to be on the safe side.

[cbreitel]

I don't care how ANYONE feels about pre-nuptuals. It is a mutual agreement in MY relationship, and it's a personal decision. When we get married, there will be a contract. When my father passed away, he left a lot to me. When his mother passed away, she left him with a lot. No way in hell am I sharing that, if 20 years down the road he's an abusive alcoholic, jobless, unmotivated and a cheater. I'm not saying this will definitely happen. But IF it happens, I won't feel obligated to share these assets.

 

 

 

I feel better safe than sorry. The same way I wear my seatbelt. I probably won't actually NEED it. But I wear it anyway, to be on the safe side.

 

No one's asking you to care about how I or anyone else "feel about prenuptuals". It's being discussed in this thread though, so if you don't want to read opinions disagreeing with you, read another thread.

 

You do realize that gifts acquired through inheritance are not subject to division in divorce, right? So the prenup in that instance accomplished nothing that the law hadn't already accomplished. Except of course screw up the marriage.

[Trialbyfire]

This is laughable logic. What is this, 1950?

 

Who has the most to lose? Consider that if a prenup causes a marriage to fail, costs you hundreds of thousands of dollars in attorney fees, and you end up settling on financial terms not that much different from a non-prenup settlement, what you've lost is a lot of money and your family. The notion that "the man" has nothing to lose is an illusion.

Are you a boy or a girl? I'm pretty sure you're a girl without any assets.

 

How did you arrive at the conclusion that prenups cause marriage failures and will cost hundreds and thousands of dollars in legal fees? Do you honestly know anything about what prenups are for and how they work? I think not.

[cbreitel]

Are you a boy or a girl?

 

I'm a dude.

 

I'm pretty sure you're a girl without any assets.

 

Well. I'm also an attorney.

 

How did you arrive at the conclusion that prenups cause marriage failures and will cost hundreds and thousands of dollars in legal fees? Do you honestly know anything about what prenups are for and how they work? I think not.

 

I think I do. Have you ever been involved in divorce litigation?

[Art_Critic]

I won't feel obligated to share these assets.

 

Do you live in a state that provides for inheritances in their divorce laws..

 

In my state only marital assets are considered to be divided in the event of a divorce,

Any inheritance that I have isn't a marital asset and neither is any other asset I had before the marriage as only marital assets are considered.

 

Now if you blend or mix your inheritance assets with the marital ones then even a prenup can't help you.

You have to keep your fathers inheritance entirely separate.. including using any of it to purchase a marital asset such as a home.

If you do that then you give up that particular portion and it becomes marital.

 

In that case you would create a post nuptial agreement on how the house would be divided in case of a divorce.

 

Of course I'm not an attorney and it does depend on the state you are in but what I have talked about is for the state I'm in..

[Trialbyfire]

I think I do. Have you ever been involved in divorce litigation?

Are you really an attorney? Show me some statistics and give me some case studies of how prenups not only ensure for the failure of the marriage but also, cost hundreds and thousands of dollars in litigation for people who have less than a couple of million.

 

As a matter of fact, I'm divorced and have gone through hell and back with it.

[cbreitel]

Are you really an attorney?

 

Yep. I don't think that's relevant though. I just felt compelled to ridicule your suggestion that I'm a little girl with no assets.

 

Show me some statistics and give me some case studies of how prenups not only ensure for the failure of the marriage but also, cost hundreds and thousands of dollars in litigation for people who have less than a couple of million.

 

I'm sure if you google it or visit a library you can find some case studies yourself, if you're that convinced of the truth of your theory.

 

There's no question that divorces cost a lot of money though. To take a divorce all the way to trial, and then possibly fight through appeals, and also face the risk of having to pay for the other spouse's legal bills (all of which can happen with as much or more frequency when a prenup is involved) can cost well over six figures in attorney fees.

 

As a matter of fact, I'm divorced and have gone through hell and back with it.

 

I'm not sure why you think a prenup would avoid divorce litigation.

[Art_Critic]

I'm not sure why you think a prenup would avoid divorce litigation.

 

I'll agree with you there CB.. if anything if the divorce was even marginally volatile then a prenup would only fuel the litigation....

 

Perhaps because many prenups lose their legal legs or some of their weight depending on many variables including children or not paying attention to proper legal case laws when writing a prenup and as soon as one sides leagl council reads it they decide to fight it.. thereby creating more litigation..

[missdependant]

I'm pretty sure you're a girl without any assets.

 

I agree with you.

[Trialbyfire]

Yep. I don't think that's relevant though. I just felt compelled to ridicule your suggestion that I'm a little girl with no assets.

Are you a litigator who specializes in divorce and prenutials?

 

I'm sure if you google it or visit a library you can find some case studies yourself, if you're that convinced of the truth of your theory.

No, the burden resides with you to prove your assumptions that prenups cause the demise of marriages.

 

There's no question that divorces cost a lot of money though. To take a divorce all the way to trial, and then possibly fight through appeals, and also face the risk of having to pay for the other spouse's legal bills (all of which can happen with as much or more frequency when a prenup is involved) can cost well over six figures in attorney fees.

Once again, you're assuming that a prenup will end up in court, which doesn't always happen. Or let me guess, you have no proof for further assumptions.

I'm not sure why you think a prenup would avoid divorce litigation.

Pretty much anything can be fought. How much leg it stands on will help the party who has assets to protect. The Supreme Court in Canada has much to say about prenups and upholding them...

[cbreitel]

Are you a litigator who specializes in divorce and prenutials?

 

I'm a litigator with some divorce experience (though it isn't my primary specialty), but once again I don't think my profession is relevant and I'm not using it as a basis to persuade you to believe anything I say. Let's just stick to the merits of the discussion. I think your opinion is as valuable as mine no matter who you are or what you do.

 

No, the burden resides with you to prove your assumptions that prenups cause the demise of marriages.

 

I don't really care to "prove" anything to you. I speak simply from my sense of judgement and common sense.

 

Once again, you're assuming that a prenup will end up in court, which doesn't always happen. Or let me guess, you have no proof for further assumptions.

 

Actually I do, and here I will assert my background to back me up. A prenup agreement cannot legally remove a divorce case from the jurisdiction of any court. If you want specific examples demonstrating this, tell me what jurisdiction you're in and I'll post some appellate decisions here for you to read on your own.

 

Pretty much anything can be fought. How much leg it stands on will help the party who has assets to protect. The Supreme Court in Canada has much to say about prenups and upholding them...

 

Prenups are just contracts. Like any contract, they can be litigated in the courts and very, very frequently are. The hourly billing rate of most attorneys in North America range from US$150 to $400 (depending on your locale). Again, I have no idea why you think prenups somehow reduce the frequency or expense of litigation.

[Trialbyfire]

I'm a litigator with some divorce experience (though it isn't my primary specialty), but once again I don't think my profession is relevant and I'm not using it as a basis to persuade you to believe anything I say. Let's just stick to the merits of the discussion. I think your opinion is as valuable as mine no matter who you are or what you do.

Apparently, you felt it was relevant enough to mention. Do you have any professional experience drafting prenuptials and winning cases, where prenuptial agreements were involved and your client was the one with little or no assets?

 

I don't really care to "prove" anything to you. I speak simply from my sense of judgement and common sense.

Are you really? So you're giving a layman's opinion, just like everyone else, right?

 

 

Actually I do, and here I will assert my background to back me up. A prenup agreement cannot legally remove a divorce case from the jurisdiction of any court. If you want specific examples demonstrating this, tell me what jurisdiction you're in and I'll post some appellate decisions here for you to read on your own.

You've avoided my point, which was that not all prenups end up in court. All you stated is that prenups don't prevent litigation. Realisticially speaking, nothing is guaranteed to prevent litigation, even an indemnity agreement.

Prenups are just contracts. Like any contract, they can be litigated in the courts and very, very frequently are. The hourly billing rate of most attorneys in North America range from US$150 to $400 (depending on your locale). Again, I have no idea why you think prenups somehow reduce the frequency or expense of litigation.

You're assuming that every divorce with a prenuptial, requires court time. Prove it.

[cbreitel]

Apparently, you felt it was relevant enough to mention.

 

In response to your childish ad hominem about my being a little girl with no assets, yes.

 

Do you have any professional experience drafting prenuptials and winning cases, where prenuptial agreements were involved and your client was the one with little or no assets?

 

Cool, so *this* is what it feels like to be cross-examined.

 

Are you really? So you're giving a layman's opinion, just like everyone else, right?

 

Duh. Did I suggest otherwise at any point?

 

You've avoided my point, which was that not all prenups end up in court. All you stated is that prenups don't prevent litigation. Realisticially speaking, nothing is guaranteed to prevent litigation, even an indemnity agreement.

You're assuming that every divorce with a prenuptial, requires court time. Prove it.

 

If not all prenups "end up in court", how do you suppose you wind up with a judgment of divorce that ends a marriage?

 

Does a magical mystical prenup wizard come down from the skies and hand you a special prenup judgment with no court involvement? Is there a special prenup god that you file your petition for prenupped divorce with? I'd love to here more about this amazing non-court divorce land you seem to have discovered through the use of prenups.

[Trialbyfire]

Duh. Did I suggest otherwise at any point?

By inference and attempted intimidation through your supposed occupation, I would say so!

If not all prenups "end up in court", how do you suppose you wind up with a judgment of divorce that ends a marriage?

 

Does a magical mystical prenup wizard come down from the skies and hand you a special prenup judgment with no court involvement? Is there a special prenup god that you file your petition for prenupped divorce with? I'd love to here more about this amazing non-court divorce land you seem to have discovered through the use of prenups.

So, by definition, all divorces go to court and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? Quit being a jackass. We're talking about a long, drawn out divorce.

 

You've done nothing but state your layman's opinion but then, try to pretend that you've got the legal expertise and experience to back up what you're stating, when it's nothing but one big pile of assumptions.

 

Overall, I'm willing to back off but that means you also need to back off cross-examining the rest of the members, since they also have the right to their opinions, in reference to getting prenuptials.

 

p.s. There's a lot more to a prenup, than what you've referenced in the confines of this thread. Read up on them.

[cbreitel]

By inference and attempted intimidation through your supposed occupation, I would say so!

 

You're projecting your insecurities on to this discussion. I really don't give a squat what my profession happens to be, whether you respect it or not, or whether or not it gives me credibility.

 

So, by definition, all divorces go to court and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? Quit being a jackass. We're talking about a long, drawn out divorce.

 

You've done nothing but state your layman's opinion but then, try to pretend that you've got the legal expertise and experience to back up what you're stating, when it's nothing but one big pile of assumptions.

 

Overall, I'm willing to back off but that means you also need to back off cross-examining the rest of the members, since they also have the right to their opinions, in reference to getting prenuptials.

 

p.s. There's a lot more to a prenup, than what you've referenced in the confines of this thread. Read up on them.

 

I've read up on them, mostly by lawyers who sell them or people who are entering into them and apparently feel the need to justify them so as not to look foolish. From my objective point of view, most prenups are useless and a destructive force in marital relationships. You can call my questions cross-examinations if you want, but I am genuinely seeking answers from people who seem to think they are a brilliant idea, since I don't see the positive aspects of them. I actually want to know what they are. I can tell you that as of right now, I've heard a lot of insults but still haven't heard any concrete facts that apply to people other than NBA athletes or movie stars.

[Trialbyfire]

You're projecting your insecurities on to this discussion. I really don't give a squat what my profession happens to be, whether you respect it or not, or whether or not it gives me credibility.

My insecurities don't encompass profession or professional opinion. Apparently yours do, in order for you to bring it into the discussion.

 

I've read up on them, mostly by lawyers who sell them or people who are entering into them and apparently feel the need to justify them so as not to look foolish. From my objective point of view, most prenups are useless and a destructive force in marital relationships. You can call my questions cross-examinations if you want, but I am genuinely seeking answers from people who seem to think they are a brilliant idea, since I don't see the positive aspects of them. I actually want to know what they are. I can tell you that as of right now, I've heard a lot of insults but still haven't heard any concrete facts that apply to people other than NBA athletes or movie stars.

Have you really read up on them? If so, you would understand why they're worth getting, starting from the perspective of being a wonderful filter for gold-diggers who will automatically refuse to sign them. No sign, no marriage.

 

I've yet to read anything concrete from you beyond a whole barrel of personal bias against them, using fairy tales filled full of scare tactics, based on nothing but generalized assumptions and conjecture.

 

I get it. You don't believe in them. If you're honestly a lawyer, good luck in your future marriage. Sometimes people need real life experiences, to learn what not to do.

[cbreitel]

Have you really read up on them? If so, you would understand why they're worth getting, starting from the perspective of being a wonderful filter for gold-diggers who will automatically refuse to sign them. No sign, no marriage.

 

I have an even better idea for you: don't marry a gold-digger. And if you think all women are gold-diggers, don't tell yourself lies by convincing yourself you want to get married to them. Stay single.

 

I've yet to read anything concrete from you beyond a whole barrel of personal bias against them, using fairy tales filled full of scare tactics, based on nothing but generalized assumptions and conjecture.

 

I get it. You don't believe in them. If you're honestly a lawyer, good luck in your future marriage. Sometimes people need real life experiences, to learn what not to do.

 

Not sure what my "personal bias" against them would be. I guess *you* want to believe the fairy tale that if someone actually thinks they're a dumb idea, that can't possibly be based on actual facts that would contradict the conclusion you've already reached in your mind. I have no agenda. Unlike the lawyer who you paid to draft your prenup, I have no financial incentive to support or oppose them in general. And I've actually been through a divorce myself, by the way. Good luck with your gold-digger wife.

[Trialbyfire]

I have an even better idea for you: don't marry a gold-digger. And if you think all women are gold-diggers, don't tell yourself lies by convincing yourself you want to get married to them. Stay single.

You can rest assured that my fiance isn't a gold-digger, since we're both signing prenups, for many of the reasons you haven't mentioned in this thread.

 

Not sure what my "personal bias" against them would be. I guess *you* want to believe the fairy tale that if someone actually thinks they're a dumb idea, that can't possibly be based on actual facts that would contradict the conclusion you've already reached in your mind. I have no agenda. Unlike the lawyer who you paid to draft your prenup, I have no financial incentive to support or oppose them in general. And I've actually been through a divorce myself, by the way. Good luck with your gold-digger wife.

I'm more than willing to accept that there are people who don't believe in them. I'm just not willing to let someone off the hook who bases his/her opinions on nothing but smoke and mirrors, then gets up people's butts for not having any concrete proof or attempting to intimidate through pretend knowledge.

 

Trust me, I won't have a gold-digging wife!

[SoulSearch_CO]

Hey Joyvke, here is a great explanation of what a prenup is:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=prenup

OMFG - that's ****ing awesome. :lmao: HAHAHA...I am so using that.

[SoulSearch_CO]

by my estimation, it's somethin that you need to have. 'cause when she leaves your *ss she's gonna leave with half.

 

hey, I just made that up - kinda catchy, eh?

Nice job, Kanye.