Chinese characters and God

[Lovelybird]

Ah, but you are forgetting Exodus 20:5 in relation to graven images: "I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me”. So it was the kids' parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents, etc. fault for making graven images.

 

Hang on though, Deuteronomy 24:16 says "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." so maybe you were right after all - the kids were to blame.

 

You would think the editors of the bible would have proof read it better to eliminate inconsistencies like that.

In fact the two verses don't contradict each other.

 

The first one, for example, if the father is an abuser, he may influence his son, his son may become an abuser too. Or if the father did great sins, such as habitually adultery or sell human as slaves, he may teach his son to be so. In case like this, both father and son sinned. Many curses are generational, because the father and father's father didn't teach their sons to do right. But God has mercy, whoever repent, God will forgive him. Every human knows what is right deep in their heart. But many numb their consciense year after year, so that they don't have a clear conscience, which is a sad thing, can lead them to destruction

 

The second one is very clear. If the father is an abuser, but the son saw his father's wickedness, the son may want to be different, and try to be a good person, even fight for what is right. Then definitely God will not punish the son for his father's sins.

[Lovelybird]

Yeah. That baby born with his spine outside of his body did SOOOO many wrong things! No one can blame God for making sure he was born that way.

 

And those kids dying of leukemia -- they had plenty of time to sin (especially since some of them are toddlers)! And did so quite readily! God isn't to blame for anything. Those kids brought it upon themselves obviously.

 

I don't know, maybe their mother ate something wrong, or bad environments and air made them so, which also are human's faults too, maybe not directly from the parents

[wuggle]

I don't know, maybe their mother ate something wrong, or bad environments and air made them so, which also are human's faults too, maybe not directly from the parents

 

So are you saying that the child born deformed is paying the price not for it's own sins, not for it's mothers, but for those industrialists who blatantly pollute the planet for prophet (sic). Does this seem fair to you ? where is gods justice here ? where the free will. ?

[Lovelybird]

So are you saying that the child born deformed is paying the price not for it's own sins, not for it's mothers, but for those industrialists who blatantly pollute the planet for prophet (sic). Does this seem fair to you ? where is gods justice here ? where the free will. ?

Free wills are that we choose to protect the environment and not pollute it, we choose to form a good environment so that our children can safely live in it; we choose to control our selfishness and hold onto good morals so that generations after generations can have good heritage and not just porns and sex addiction; we choose to hold onto what is good and pure, so generation after generation won't be degraded spiritually.....when one applauded or encourage or do the wrong things, seemingly may not affect himself or herself directly, but this one hasn't consider his or her children and chidren's children

 

we have lots of choices

 

Life doesn't end when one dies, everyone has soul. God will make every right, and HE will bring justice

[dunstable]

In fact the two verses don't contradict each other.

 

The first one, for example, if the father is an abuser, he may influence his son, his son may become an abuser too. Or if the father did great sins, such as habitually adultery or sell human as slaves, he may teach his son to be so. In case like this, both father and son sinned. Many curses are generational, because the father and father's father didn't teach their sons to do right. But God has mercy, whoever repent, God will forgive him. Every human knows what is right deep in their heart. But many numb their consciense year after year, so that they don't have a clear conscience, which is a sad thing, can lead them to destruction

 

The second one is very clear. If the father is an abuser, but the son saw his father's wickedness, the son may want to be different, and try to be a good person, even fight for what is right. Then definitely God will not punish the son for his father's sins.

 

It's a premise of believers that the bible is never inconsistent. Given the premise, it follows that all apparent inconsistencies must be the result of lack of understanding. Then, with enough effort, the apparent inconsistencies can be explained away.

 

Since I don't believe in god, the idea of a divinely inspired and inerrant book is out of the question. When it comes to the question of how to lead a good life, I don't think there is much in the bible to shed light on that.

[wuggle]

God will make every right, and HE will bring justice

 

I'm sorry but you haven't addressed the point I was trying to make at all. Where is the justice in a loving god, who granted us free will, making a newborn suffer for the sins of other people not even related to him (ie those other people polluting the planet).

[Island Girl]

when one applauded or encourage or do the wrong things, seemingly may not affect himself or herself directly, but this one hasn't consider his or her children and chidren's children

 

So this all knowing and all powerful being brings life into the world that He knows will suffer tremendously and die a horrible death for as long as it lives to inflict punishment or teach a lesson to the parent?

 

That's GREAT!! What a wonderful divine being.

 

And of course that is completely loving and kind!

 

Life doesn't end when one dies, everyone has soul. God will make every right, and HE will bring justice

 

So that "justice" includes bringing suffering upon the innocents.

 

Let's say a father and son are brought into a courtroom.

The father is accused of stealing and found guilty.

So the son's hands are cut off.

 

I would not think that is justice.

 

And don't you think that this enlightened being would be at least and fair and just as I am? After all, I am human and not enlightened or omnipotent.

 

 

And you actually think this makes sense. ? .

 

Here's a great video for you:

 

 

It is FANTASTIC.

[Lovelybird]

It's a premise of believers that the bible is never inconsistent. Given the premise, it follows that all apparent inconsistencies must be the result of lack of understanding. Then, with enough effort, the apparent inconsistencies can be explained away.

 

Since I don't believe in god, the idea of a divinely inspired and inerrant book is out of the question. When it comes to the question of how to lead a good life, I don't think there is much in the bible to shed light on that.

Not true. In Bible there are full of wisdoms. If one meditate on those verses enough, and God will teach them how to apply wisdom into our daily lives. It is like one learns to act right. When one acts right, this one can walk in blessings, spiritually, emotionally, and physically. Personally I am so benefited and blessed and healed by Bible and God

[wuggle]

Personally I am so benefited and blessed and healed by Bible and God

 

While tha's lovely, this blessings and serenity you have been granted does appear to have come at a very high price, ie abandoning common sense, logic and apparent decency. Why did this all knowing, loving god who frequently inflicts massive pain on innocents to teach someone else a lesson (?) give you an intellect ?, do you not think that an all powerful being who gave you this fantasic brain above all other creatures, would be a bit annoyed that you choose not to use it ? maybe he will punish my cat because of your sins. Thanks. Please try thinking sensibly or at least consistently.

[Lovelybird]

While tha's lovely, this blessings and serenity you have been granted does appear to have come at a very high price, ie abandoning common sense, logic and apparent decency. Why did this all knowing, loving god who frequently inflicts massive pain on innocents to teach someone else a lesson (?) give you an intellect ?, do you not think that an all powerful being who gave you this fantasic brain above all other creatures, would be a bit annoyed that you choose not to use it ? maybe he will punish my cat because of your sins. Thanks. Please try thinking sensibly or at least consistently.

I see, you use your brain very well, AND bitterly

 

Do you claim one who believe in God don't use their brain? do you suggest Einstein don't use his brain? and Lincon didn't use his brain? and all those did great things in history, made great contribution in human history didn't use their brain? They not only used their brain, but also used their heart and spirit

 

quite arrogant you say somthing you don't know

[dunstable]

In Bible there are full of wisdoms. If one meditate on those verses enough, and God will teach them how to apply wisdom into our daily lives. It is like one learns to act right. When one acts right, this one can walk in blessings, spiritually, emotionally, and physically.

 

What is religion's track record on acting right? Crusades, jihads, pogroms, and inquisitions?

[Lovelybird]

What is religion's track record on acting right? Crusades, jihads, pogroms, and inquisitions?

That weren't God's will. Human being has been being so famous doing own wills

[dunstable]

Do you claim one who believe in God don't use their brain? do you suggest Einstein don't use his brain? and Lincon didn't use his brain? and all those did great things in history, made great contribution in human history didn't use their brain? They not only used their brain, but also used their heart and spirit

 

As a matter of fact, Einstein was not religious; he wrote "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends, which are nevertheless pretty childish."

 

As I mentioned in my last message, religion is notable for crusades, pogroms, jihads, fatwahs, and inquisitions; also for opposing science and free thinking.

 

The enormous relative increase in human well being that we have today is due to science and humanist philosophy in the face of opposition from religion.

[dunstable]

That weren't God's will. Human being has been being so famous doing own wills

 

A few points:

 

1. The old testament, supposedly divinely inspired, is full of instances of God urging his followers to commit ethnic cleansing.
   
2. Those atrocities (crusades, jihads, etc) were in the name of religion.
   
3. The claim of each religion that its holy book is inerrant makes every other religious group into blasphemers and hence a target for oppression.
   
4. Organized religion, historically, has by and large not tolerated freedom of speech and thought.
   

[Enema]

Not true. In Bible there are full of wisdoms. If one meditate on those verses enough

 

You'd think an all powerful god could make a bible that says what it means clearly, without the need for "meditation" until it makes sense.

 

God's punishments are unique in that they're eternal. He calls us his children; yet when a child makes the wrong choice through confusing instructions, do you punish them? Do you punish them forever?

 

Once again, your god is shown to be an evil, sadistic bastard.

[TaraMaiden]

you mean only Africa can produce human?

 

and all human's ancestors are black? where does white people come from? aberrance?

No, but there are some people born of two black parents who had white ancestors... there is a black chef called Ainsley Harriot on UK TV and he can trace back his ancestry to containing white people, only three or four generations back. Similarly, some so-called white people also have black members in their ancestry. It only takes two generations ot alter skin tone.

Which just goes to show that separatism is a myth.

If many people had the ability to seek back in their ancestry, we would all find a very mixed bag, I suspect.

[TaraMaiden]

You'd think an all powerful god could make a bible that says what it means clearly, without the need for "meditation" until it makes sense.

 

God's punishments are unique in that they're eternal. He calls us his children; yet when a child makes the wrong choice through confusing instructions, do you punish them? Do you punish them forever?

 

Once again, your god is shown to be an evil, sadistic bastard.

 

In the recent earthquakes in l'Aquila Italy, so many homes were destroyed, and good people killed. I mourn for all the good Catholic Christian people whose lives were changed in a mere few moments, and whose lives will never be the same, truly.

 

Curious then, that the local Buddhist monastery was left unscathed.

 

God has a strange way of performing his wonders for his devout children.

[Lovelybird]

A few points:

 

1. The old testament, supposedly divinely inspired, is full of instances of God urging his followers to commit ethnic cleansing.
   
2. Those atrocities (crusades, jihads, etc) were in the name of religion.
   
3. The claim of each religion that its holy book is inerrant makes every other religious group into blasphemers and hence a target for oppression.
   
4. Organized religion, historically, has by and large not tolerated freedom of speech and thought.
   

It is not religion that MAKE people do these things, it is fallen natural of human in themselves that make them do these things. People can use a good name for bad behaviours, can use God for doing bad things, if they use God's name, it is their responsibility, not God.

 

Suppose one friend of yours killed a person, say it is because he loved you. It is guilt of yours or his???

 

In OT, there were cleansing. But there clearly written some reasons for it. Because the evil of those people reached fullness, not because Jews were righteousness, but because those people's evilness were far beyond Jews.

 

Such as Sodom, it's evil was full. If it wasn't, God would wait them and hoped them repent, but no, their evil continued greater.

[dunstable]

Here's a great video for you:

 

 

It is FANTASTIC.

Island Girl, thanks for the video link. It truly is a fantastic video. I hope everyone in this discussion has seen it!

[Eve]

"Surrey's Shirley Eu has created a tool to illustrate how the gospel is hidden in ancient Chinese characters.

..

The booklet, which deconstructs 10 Chinese characters into its basic components, explains the creation, the fall and redemption of man."

 

http://www.canada.com/surreynow/story.html?id=2373ea9d-a518-4560-82a2-d47cc4ff6bb1

 

 

It is amazing ! I checked out those words, they actually meant the stories in Bible !

 

Lovelybird, had you heard of Shang Di before? Just wondering if the person the booklet speaks off is well known within Chinese culture.

 

It would be good to know more because I know very little about Chinese culture and so cannot comprehend the cultural aspect/impact of the booklet.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[dunstable]

Lovelybird, had you heard of Shang Di before? Just wondering if the person the booklet speaks off is well known within Chinese culture.

 

I don't know much about this, just a bit I gleaned from the internet, when my curiosity was stimulated by Lovelybird's initial post.

 

Shangdi is the supreme god of the Han Chinese people. I understand that some Chinese believe that he is the same god as Yahweh.

 

Many of the elements in Chinese religion appear to be the same as in Judaism, Christianity, and even Islam - to give just one example, the lamb is highly symbolic and a sacrificial animal. Clearly, all these religions have borrowed from each other or had sources in common such as more ancient myths.

[dunstable]

It is not religion that MAKE people do these things, it is fallen natural of human in themselves that make them do these things. People can use a good name for bad behaviours, can use God for doing bad things, if they use God's name, it is their responsibility, not God.

 

In pointing out the atrocities of the crusades, pogroms, jihads, fatwahs, inquisitions, I was responding to your point that religion was responsible for great achievements.

 

It doesn't say much for religion that people use it as an excuse for atrocity. Are you saying that those vast numbers of people, e.g. in the crusades, were not true believers? In the Second World War, even the Pope supported the Nazis - was he not a true believer? Are you saying that true believers do not commit atrocities (please read my next two comments before replying to this last question)?

 

Suppose one friend of yours killed a person, say it is because he loved you. It is guilt of yours or his???

It could be my fault, depending what I told him. There was a famous case of a man hanged in England for allegedly telling a man with a gun "Let him have it, Chris". The man who pulled the trigger was too young to be hanged and was sentenced to 10 years but the man who spoke the alleged words (who was only 19 with a mental age of 11) was hanged. The old testament is full of stories of god instructing his chosen people to kill other peoples. In addition, god himself often wreaks havoc such as the great flood, plague, pestilence, disease, turning rivers to blood, etc, not to mention his dastardly work in creating volcanoes and earthquakes. So god as described in the OT does not set a good example. He says "thou shalt not kill" but then encourages all kinds of exceptions to the rule, both by himself and his followers. Given that god endorses killing under some circumstances (a lot of circumstances), is it any wonder that his followers can easily find circumstances where they find it justifiable?

 

In reply to my point about ethic cleansing encouraged by the god in the OT, you replied:

In OT, there were cleansing. But there clearly written some reasons for it. Because the evil of those people reached fullness, not because Jews were righteousness, but because those people's evilness were far beyond Jews.

 

Such as Sodom, it's evil was full. If it wasn't, God would wait them and hoped them repent, but no, their evil continued greater.

 

I see from your reply that you - as a Christian - are defending ethnic cleansing because those people eliminated in the OT were irredeemably bad (according to what you have read in the bible or heard from your church). That just proves my previous point, you have taken your morals from the bible and you now countenance ethic cleansing. You are scary!

[NoIDidn't]

Offense? I'm not sure I follow. I saw it as more of a pattern finding/pattern manipulating behavior rather than having any sort of religious validity. Sorry for the confusion.

 

I'm wholly with you on the charlatan thing.

 

LOL. I didn't realize I was posting after you. I meant LB as in LovelyBird. LOL.

 

Sorry for the confusion on my part now. LOL

[NoIDidn't]

Wow, I didn't see how this thread had devolved into bashing the Christian God. Or any god for that matter.

 

How sad.

 

I didn't find the evangelism tools (for evangelizing Chinese people with ancient history) interesting because it seems more like manipulation, but I don't see the point in bashing folks for their beliefs.

[dunstable]

I didn't find the evangelism tools (for evangelizing Chinese people with ancient history) interesting because it seems more like manipulation, but I don't see the point in bashing folks for their beliefs.

Not bashing just replying.