This Book is complete

[stampdaddy]

Your Royal Stampness,

 

Not to interrupt the fun here, but if you already have answered this somewhere, apologies for missing it....

 

Has the lady at any point "in all of this" said that she WOULD like to live with you/marry one day/ride off into the sunset together?....

 

Or are sentiments for the time being buried beneath the rubble?

 

As ever curious,

 

Your humble subject,

 

OE

 

re: message....aye aye, captain...

 

My simple response to this is YES. Of course. MANY, MANY, MANY times. In words, on cards, in letters, in poems, in song.....

 

And yes, it is all buried underneath the rubble, and it may be a while before the excavation team can even begin to search for survivors...

[Die Hard]

Hey stamp, I just wanted to clarify why I have said some of the things to you that I have.

 

I do not like seeing you, or reading about you in pain and hurting. I'm no therapist or expert but I have the urge to try and help. Its a feeling of making something positive from my negative behavior of the past. I try to help the best way I know how and sure maybe I say things too harshly sometimes but like I said I'm no expert...just trying to help. Some of the things I said I'm sure they stung and maybe it wasn't all fair but dammit man I just want to help. If I could I would take your pain and anxiety away but I can't and I get frustrated. Just don't think at the end of the day that I don't like you because I do and I want nothing more than for you to be happy, whether that is with the mw or not. Stay strong my brother....

[Die Hard]

One more thought. I would have edited my last post but I'm on my blackberry and it won't let me edit my posts. It a bug in my mobile browser I think.

 

Anyway, in case you're wondering "why can't die hard be nicer sometimes", its because I'm afraid to. I'm shaped by my own experiences and when I lurked here during my affair I would LATCH on to anything that made it feel like I might end up with the mw or that what I was doing wasn't all that bad. For example: "maybe the mw is is just confused and does love you". I would take that comment and run with it. Compare that to "if the mw loved you she would be with you". That comment I would ignore. I'm just afraid if I'm nice or positive that in your condition you'll see it the wrong way and run with it, since that's what I would have done.

 

At the end of my last post I said I want you to be happy whether its with the mw or not and even that I regret saying because part of me wonders if your sitting there thinking "so maybe I will end up with her happy". I just don't want to give false hope or give anyone reasons to hang on when they shouldn't. Maybe I could learn to give better advice or learn to phrase it better but its done with the best of intentions..just do not forget that!

[stampdaddy]

Hey stamp, I just wanted to clarify why I have said some of the things to you that I have.

 

I do not like seeing you, or reading about you in pain and hurting. I'm no therapist or expert but I have the urge to try and help. Its a feeling of making something positive from my negative behavior of the past. I try to help the best way I know how and sure maybe I say things too harshly sometimes but like I said I'm no expert...just trying to help. Some of the things I said I'm sure they stung and maybe it wasn't all fair but dammit man I just want to help. If I could I would take your pain and anxiety away but I can't and I get frustrated. Just don't think at the end of the day that I don't like you because I do and I want nothing more than for you to be happy, whether that is with the mw or not. Stay strong my brother....

 

of course that was in response to your "I'd rather eat a steamer" on the other thread

 

understood, no problems.. and like I said yesterday, sometimes I have to lighten things up a little around her (on my treads at least). I know that this is a serious topic, and personally it is serious, VERY serious. What I have issues with on anybody's threads is when a poster acts like the know every detail about everything that is going on. Now sure, there seems to be a ton of "cookie cutter" stories here, and it takes a person a good while to figure out that their story isnt all that different in the end. And when one is as invested as I was into her, into us, with all of the promises, it is not as easy as 1-2-3, OK, DONE!

 

anyhoo, thanks for the kinder words

[Die Hard]

of course that was in response to your "I'd rather eat a steamer" on the other thread

 

understood, no problems.. and like I said yesterday, sometimes I have to lighten things up a little around her (on my treads at least). I know that this is a serious topic, and personally it is serious, VERY serious. What I have issues with on anybody's threads is when a poster acts like the know every detail about everything that is going on. Now sure, there seems to be a ton of "cookie cutter" stories here, and it takes a person a good while to figure out that their story isnt all that different in the end. And when one is as invested as I was into her, into us, with all of the promises, it is not as easy as 1-2-3, OK, DONE!

 

anyhoo, thanks for the kinder words

I know as well as anyone that it's not as easy as 123 done. BUT you do have to START at 123. For me, it was ~365 and done. A year of nc, while not easy by any stretch(it will probably be the hardest thing you've ever done) will make all the difference in the world and you will be a STRONGER and WISER person for it. There are rewards to be had for all that hard work but you won't see it until you make it out. But boy oh boy stamp if you can make it out you are going to feel better than you have in years. My bet is, like me, you've forgotten what truly being happy feels like but you can be there again. Its a long haul and tough but anything worth having is! Its worth the taking the long hard road, trust me on this!! You're never going to forget the mw and may well always have a place in your heart for what you had with her but that doesn't mean you cannot be happy without her. YOU CAN!

[stampdaddy]

I know as well as anyone that it's not as easy as 123 done. BUT you do have to START at 123. For me, it was ~365 and done. A year of nc, while not easy by any stretch(it will probably be the hardest thing you've ever done) will make all the difference in the world and you will be a STRONGER and WISER person for it. There are rewards to be had for all that hard work but you won't see it until you make it out. But boy oh boy stamp if you can make it out you are going to feel better than you have in years. My bet is, like me, you've forgotten what truly being happy feels like but you can be there again. Its a long haul and tough but anything worth having is! Its worth the taking the long hard road, trust me on this!! You're never going to forget the mw and may well always have a place in your heart for what you had with her but that doesn't mean you cannot be happy without her. YOU CAN!

 

No I havent been happy, and no I can not remember when the last time I WAS happy 24/7.. I will say 2 years before meeting her, the day I met her and the first few weeks after meeting her.. Before I fell in love with her and before she told me that she LOVED me and would love me forever...

 

**and let me clarify this to make sure this doesnt come across like I am blaming her... I am talking about being elated with her at one point during the day, and then at night, when the sun went down, and H was home, the sun went down on me too... I hated the "thoughts" that haunted me at night... I wanted to be the one that slept next to her. The next day, when the sun came up, it shined on me. Everyday, that is how I lived.. I dont live like that anymore.

[White Flower]

1,2,3,4,5

 

BJ, I agree. People indeed choose to have affairs. And I also agree that there are many things that cause a WS to consider having one.

 

Reggie, yes, I did 'project like crazy'. I explained myself but you didn't quite get my drift so I will explain in a moment.

 

L, re; #2. Showing someone something they didn't see is called opening up their eyes. She was unaware of how her H bamboozled her and she was looking for answers. I showed her one. By you suggesting I persuaded her I feel like you are siding with men (the man in this case) because you don't like that I (a woman) showed her the truth. If I am wrong, please forgive me. I just don't understand how you call it persuasion. Did I persuade her to 'see the light'? If so, I'm not sorry about it; she needed to see it.

 

Re: #4. I know she cheated, lied, and disrespected her H. I could go on about that for days and I have, just check some of my 2800 posts. I was focusing on the cause of her cheating because I wanted to. That's my prerogotive. And I did focus on the spreading her legs part because you seem to think that a woman just gets this sudden idea one day that she'll go out and spread her legs for just any old guy. SO NOT TRUE. You may disagree with what she did, but there was a reason she did it.

 

5. You are right, I agree with you that we cannot expect a S.O. to give us 100% of our wants and needs. Notice I included needs in the 100% because it is just impossible. For example, I needed respect for all that I did for my exH and he could not provide that for me. He was a narcissist and once I realized that I knew it would be nearly impossible for him to respect anyone, especially anyone who didn't worship him. That is just one example and probably too deep if you don't understand NPD and I don't want to digress or expound.

 

Reggie, my heart goes out to you. You seem like such a wonderful, honest, and caring man. It appears that your exWW had no reason for stepping out but again, I don't know her side of the story. The reason I projected like I did was because I want guys like you and LKJH to understand that every cheater has a heart and most are not sleazy or have any intention of malice. Yes, they DO make a decision to cheat but negating the reasons why WILL NOT prevent that from happening to you. You so want people to all see in black and white and to follow the rules. A spouse that considers an affair does so with so much pain in their hearts that it goes beyond reason sometimes. I can't speak for your exW but I know that crossing a line comes with so much weighing of the pros and cons that it is unbelievable. Even though I was technically separated I did wonder if I should proceed with the A IN CASE I would ever consider a reconcilliation with my now exH and all this STILL weighed heavy in my heart. I knew my M was over, knew my H was not fulfilling even half of my NEEDS much less all of them (not talking about WANTS) and when Mr. Tall Drink of Water came along and recognized who I really was it was a no-brainer during a time when my brain was so clogged with all the contemplation, pain, and loss. Throw in some depression and high-stress times and you have the makings of an A. At times like this there is no wrong and right, there is only getting what you need. Understanding this one point might help you recognize something in your future Rs.

 

This may anger you, but I tell you with the hope that you will understand that not all women who cheat do it easily or with no thought to consequences. Sometimes the consequences are worth it. If a W has 10 needs, and the H can only fill 1 of them and someone comes along and brings with him the other 9, it is very hard to say no. I know this ticks you off but being angry didn't save your M, did it? Maybe trying to bring those 9, maybe even 7 or 8 things back into the M would have. Heck, with my ex I probably would have settled for 2. I'm not saying this was your case, but I know it was mine and highly suspect it was the MW in this case. But I am directing this to you and men like you who focus on the wrong and right instead of the cause and possible prevention of an A.

 

Another underlying feeling I get from you both is that you seem to believe in 'once a cheater, always a cheater' but rarely is this true. I bring it up because I've seen you both try to convince Stamp to wonder about this as if he didn't know his MW those 5 years. (L might call this 'persuasion', I don't know). If you tend to believe that, then there is absolutely no hope for your futures. People make mistakes and learn from them for the most part. For me, there will NEVER be an A nor a MM in my life again. Yet, I did say the consequences were worth it. I am now out of a horribly painful M and I would rather be alone than be suffering with exH and my children agree.

 

Reggie, I have seen your pain and want to make sure you don't think I am comparing my ex to you; I am not projecting here as I did with MWs H. But I do see a stubbornness and a certain belief about women in general which causes me, sadly, to think you'll always end up with a cheating W. I really hope you don't repeat the same situations by choosing the same type of woman. I really hope you start seeing at least some cheating women as women who have hurting hearts and just can't find their way to stay faithful to someone who, in their eyes, wasn't worth staying faithful to. Again, I am not suggesting you weren't worth staying faithful to at all, but I do feel that if you don't change the way you seem to view women, it could happen to you again.

 

Stamp, I'm sorry for the threadjacking. Reggie, if you would like to answer, perhaps it would be better in a PM?

[stampdaddy]

Stamp, I'm sorry for the threadjacking. Reggie, if you would like to answer, perhaps it would be better in a PM

 

That's alrighty Whitey....

[White Flower]

That's alrighty Whitey....

R U wearing your tightey whitey's?

[Reggie]

WF,our situations are very different. In the cases of both my wives, they were serial cheaters and had histories of being OWs in their early 20's. I won't try to defend myself except tosay that both of them have all the signs of a PD. My first iwfe completely abandoned our kids and I raised two boys, one severely diabled, by myself for years while she had a series of affairs. Her sister implored me to divorce her and told me that as i walked down the aisle with her, she turned to her husbband and said' I hope this poor guy knows what he is getting into." After the divorce, her parents and siblings would invite me to Christmas and Thanksgiving. My boys would run to me when they were hurt or sick.

In my second marriage, much the same happened. My XW's parents have told me thier daughter is a sociopath who reivents herself ever 4-5 years because she does things like this. She lied to me my whole marriage , claiming to have a colege degree. The truth is she quit college her senior year and sent home fake transcripts while she had an affair with a married man she had met.

I don't believe once a cheater always a cheater. I do not subscribe to the notion that a man can meet all the needs some women feel they should. I feel many women expect clairvoyance and do not communicate their needs.

I have no idea what your H waslike. But, I find it odd that despite Stamp's assertion that this guy was a decent man and husband, you have injected him with the qualities you saw in your H.

It seems you are painting BHs with a broad brush, much like you feel certain men are painting OWs with one.

So, why is it okay to do that , yet object to others doing the same.

Sticking to this particular BH, you simply cannot know what he was like.

I , too, hope you find peace,and learn that not having your needs met is your responsibility. you had many options other than cheating to address your problems. Have you ever contemplated that if your h was questioned re your meeting his needs, he might have had similar complaints?

[White Flower]

WF,our situations are very different. In the cases of both my wives, they were serial cheaters and had histories of being OWs in their early 20's. I won't try to defend myself except tosay that both of them have all the signs of a PD. My first iwfe completely abandoned our kids and I raised two boys, one severely diabled, by myself for years while she had a series of affairs. Her sister implored me to divorce her and told me that as i walked down the aisle with her, she turned to her husbband and said' I hope this poor guy knows what he is getting into." After the divorce, her parents and siblings would invite me to Christmas and Thanksgiving. My boys would run to me when they were hurt or sick.

In my second marriage, much the same happened. My XW's parents have told me thier daughter is a sociopath who reivents herself ever 4-5 years because she does things like this. She lied to me my whole marriage , claiming to have a colege degree. The truth is she quit college her senior year and sent home fake transcripts while she had an affair with a married man she had met.

I don't believe once a cheater always a cheater. I do not subscribe to the notion that a man can meet all the needs some women feel they should. I feel many women expect clairvoyance and do not communicate their needs.

I have no idea what your H waslike. But, I find it odd that despite Stamp's assertion that this guy was a decent man and husband, you have injected him with the qualities you saw in your H.

It seems you are painting BHs with a broad brush, much like you feel certain men are painting OWs with one.

So, why is it okay to do that , yet object to others doing the same.

Sticking to this particular BH, you simply cannot know what he was like.

I , too, hope you find peace,and learn that not having your needs met is your responsibility. you had many options other than cheating to address your problems. Have you ever contemplated that if your h was questioned re your meeting his needs, he might have had similar complaints?

Oh boy! Have I ever! When we first M, my H told me that he was sure we would never need counseling because I would make sure we would always communicate. Little did I know that meant he would never want to communicate at all! And when I would ask if he were happy he always said yes. I think he was happy because I was TOO giving and TOO much of a dormat and he got used to it. Maybe that was my fault, I'll never know.

 

I do believe in a M it is the responsibility to express one's needs. If they are not expressed then it is the fault of the person who feels at a loss. Yet if those needs are expressed and the other refuses to act on it, even a promise of it then they are the one at fault. I could go on and on, but I won't bore you.

 

I have been reading Stamp's story from the beginning and I know why I relate so well to it; that is all I can tell you for now.

 

I am not sure we are doing the same thing. I saw similarities between me and Stamp's MW and I defended the reasons WHY she began the A. Again, not saying it was the best thing to do, but there was a reason she did it. In saying that, I am saying her H could have prevented it. That's all.

 

I believe what you and L are doing is stereotyping which is much more dangerous. You are bound to fall into the same kind of R as before with those beliefs, I am sure of it. Right is right is right, wrong is wrong is wrong but you still have not addressed the WHYs. The WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE the A started. In your case you married one with PD and the other a sociopath (but I did hear this is a male gene?) which causes me to believe you had nothing to do with their cheating--it was all on them. Boy, talk about luck, huh?

 

I sincerely hope you never have to go through that again, Reggie. I really feel for you. Maybe have them psychologically tested before M?

[LakesideDream]

Yes.. the XXY is only found in males. Bad flower... bad bad. Sociopathic behavior or behavior that emulates sociopathy is another thing altogether, say Eileen Wornos.....

[Reggie]

It was not luck, WF. It was naivety or stupidity on my part combined with the fact that NPD,BPDs and ASPDs instinctively target folks that are co-dependant or who have trouble sticking up for themselves. A healthier person would have recognized the toxicity and run.

As for sterotyping, I don't. But, with all the justifying of affairs going on in this board, I am way more cynical. I'd say 90% of the women that have asked me out have ,eventually, told me they have cheated in their past. I am floored by the prevalence I am seeing. So, I don't think I will wind up with a cheater again. My radar is way more developed. I have a very strict boundary on this.Any history of cheating in any capacity, either as a spouse, girlfreind or OW, and I run.

[Ronni_W]

Actually, your post made me think of something. That maybe Stamp is concerned about the children because, subconciously, he doesn't want to deal with custody drama if/when he gets her permanently.

 

That is usually the reason that we help people that are close to us. We do it to help make our lifes and interactions with them easier.

Except that Stamp has vehemently denied and defended against having ANY self-interested thoughts and motives. According to Stamp, it is all about the children and the (ex)husband, and the (ex)wife doing all of them "wrong", and Stamp being the victim of "coircumstances".

 

If Stamp DID have the self-concerns you mention, I strongly suspect that he would be in touch enough with them to have spoken out for himself and on his own behalf. That is, he does NOT strike me as a stupid or unaware individual, so such thoughts would be conscious, not subconscious, for him.

 

Unless I am daft as well as dense

[Chrome Barracuda]

Yep and just like reggie. I dont mess with girls who cant make up their minds. I've seen girls who's had a proclivity to cheat, continue to do so.

 

Why would any man who's about something be with someone like that.

 

I mean I knew MY EX was loose, from all the stories I heard, but I was a man with a kind heart and even after I gave her a chance, guess what?

 

You know what she did, y'all???

 

...She cheated!

 

LOL.

 

So just remember people I only say this from my viewpoint. I did everything right. I never neglected her. I never mistreated her. she cheated on me because it was her CHOICE to do so.

 

People have a choice, a person can only control one person that's themselves.

 

No one can force you to have an affair, it is always a choice.

 

And the funny thing about the ex is the guy she cheated on me with , cheated on her! lol. That's comedy!

[White Flower]

It was not luck, WF. It was naivety or stupidity on my part combined with the fact that NPD,BPDs and ASPDs instinctively target folks that are co-dependant or who have trouble sticking up for themselves. A healthier person would have recognized the toxicity and run.

As for sterotyping, I don't. But, with all the justifying of affairs going on in this board, I am way more cynical. I'd say 90% of the women that have asked me out have ,eventually, told me they have cheated in their past. I am floored by the prevalence I am seeing. So, I don't think I will wind up with a cheater again. My radar is way more developed. I have a very strict boundary on this.Any history of cheating in any capacity, either as a spouse, girlfreind or OW, and I run.

You know Reggie, I have to agree with you about the co-dependent thing. I was co-dependent and married someone with NPD. I was young, naive, and very giving as well. He so took advantage of it.

 

I know you see my story as justifying for my A, yet, I really hope you also understand I could never do it again. Most OW/OM say they won't as well because it causes way too much devastation on both sides and we feel it deeply. I don't say it for anyone else, I say it for me. Yet, I hope you do get what I'm saying because with your eyes wide open I think you'll do better next time around.

[boldjack]

Boldjack, cheating -free for 20mmmmm years. WF, everybody ,who has had an affair SAYS that it will never happen again, but few follow through. Validating the "reasons", for affairs, is a good way for them to happen again. There is no justification for an affair.......period. Bad marriage? End it. Bad relationship? End it. Self-esteem is worth more than a faulty relationship.

[NoIDidn't]

Except that Stamp has vehemently denied and defended against having ANY self-interested thoughts and motives. According to Stamp, it is all about the children and the (ex)husband, and the (ex)wife doing all of them "wrong", and Stamp being the victim of "coircumstances".

 

If Stamp DID have the self-concerns you mention, I strongly suspect that he would be in touch enough with them to have spoken out for himself and on his own behalf. That is, he does NOT strike me as a stupid or unaware individual, so such thoughts would be conscious, not subconscious, for him.

 

Unless I am daft as well as dense

 

Quite true. My own desires for simplicity in my life lead me to CONCIOUSLY attempt to get people to do certain things my way.

[stampdaddy]

Quite true. My own desires for simplicity in my life lead me to CONCIOUSLY attempt to get people to do certain things my way.

 

I dont know what you are exactly trying to say??

 

I am bigger that myself, and I know what my thoughts were/are.. I CAN try to help THEM, even if it meant losing HER to do so. Of course my hopes would have been that IF things were done "right" then maybe I wouldnt have lost her. But, they werent and I lost her anyway....

 

***I dont mean that to sound "oh, woe is me".. At this point I dont know who lost who, and it really doesnt matter. Sure, the other day she REALLY lost me being mean and ugly. But my heart is bigger than that. She may have lost herself, I dont know. I hope that is what happened, because the alternative is that she was ALWAYS like this, and I just didnt see it (or didnt pay attention to it). Either way, all is good in da hood

[Ronni_W]

Quite true. My own desires for simplicity in my life lead me to CONCIOUSLY attempt to get people to do certain things my way.

You and every other person on the planet, whether they cop to it or not . But there are those who are unable to acknowledge that they are self-invested in every single one of their own thoughts, words and actions...like my mom. She has a (totally distorted) self-image and just always wants to be seen as purely altruistic, ever-sacrificing...as if she doesn't even have any wants, needs or goals of her own!

It's so depleting and exhausting being around people like that. But, God bless her heart, she's getting better since she started therapy -- there is ALWAYS hope!!!

[White Flower]

Boldjack, cheating -free for 20mmmmm years. WF, everybody ,who has had an affair SAYS that it will never happen again, but few follow through. Validating the "reasons", for affairs, is a good way for them to happen again. There is no justification for an affair.......period. Bad marriage? End it. Bad relationship? End it. Self-esteem is worth more than a faulty relationship.

Congrats on your 20th cheating-free anniversary!

 

I still don't think you get that I wasn't validating as much as trying to get some people to understand that they can actually PREVENT an A in their own M if they recognize cries for help such as, 'I think we need counseling', or 'I'm not happy', etc. If ignored for too long, As can happen.

 

So far, everyone I have spoken to that admitted having been in an A was only ever in one A, except a serial cheater. Baring the CS, the pain was too deep and too great to bear again.

[tami-chan]

That is one of my "personal codes of conduct", too, so I TOTALLY get it.

Like you, I had to learn the really hard way that there is a huge difference between helping others see their own Truth and Light, and bashing and bulldozing them with MY version of "truth and light". For me, it was my Lesson in humility.

 

 

That's the part that makes me sad: Instead of being/staying her compassionate and understanding lover/supporter/friend, you somehow allowed yourself to take on the roles of her accuser, judge, jury and executioner.

 

It's as if you chose "being right" over being compassionate and supportive. That's what it LOOKS like from the outside, I mean...NOT that is necessarily what you intended, or what was going on in your mind and heart.

 

Her boat DID get rocked in a most violent manner. That is, and will always be, separate and apart from her love for, and life with, you. How it comes across is that you forgot the person who had been tossed, against her will, into chaos. And that it happened to her because she had, for five years, chosen you.

 

IMHO, under the complex and emotion-filled circumstances, it would have been okay for you to cut her some slack about you perceived/perceive as her "misplaced values". I humbly suggest that THAT may have been for the highest good of all concerned.

And there is still time, if you wanted to go along a path that looks more like this

 

Ronni, you articulated this very well....!

 

I believe that when the dust and debris have settled, Stamp just wants to come out being able to say "I did the right thing"..that he is, after being a partner in a betrayal, still a righteous, noble and moral gentleman.

[tami-chan]

Except that Stamp has vehemently denied and defended against having ANY self-interested thoughts and motives. According to Stamp, it is all about the children and the (ex)husband, and the (ex)wife doing all of them "wrong", and Stamp being the victim of "coircumstances".

 

If Stamp DID have the self-concerns you mention, I strongly suspect that he would be in touch enough with them to have spoken out for himself and on his own behalf. That is, he does NOT strike me as a stupid or unaware individual, so such thoughts would be conscious, not subconscious, for him.

 

Unless I am daft as well as dense

 

Oh gosh....Ronni, bulls-eye, in my humble opinion. I really can't believe that not many people can "see" through all these....:rolleyes:!