I called OW twice and guess what?

[Dexter Morgan]

Yabutt.. maybe you just don't know about it..

 

What children don't know can't hurt them.. right? you just proved my point.

 

didn't prove anything. sure, I might not know about it, but the very fact that he is betraying someone I love dearly, whether I know about it or not, would make him a s##t father.

 

and if he is cheating on my mother, and suppose to be spending time with us instead off getting his willy waxed....well there ya go.

[taylor]

Spark,

 

You already said you have forgiven the OW. If you truly have, why does she need to apologize to you?

 

People usually want the apology so that they CAN forgive..but you said you have already forgiven. So why do you need the apology?

 

Also, did you ever consider the thought that maybe the OW feels too ashamed to apologize to you...that she might feel you wouldn't accept it even if she offered it to you? That maybe she feels she doesn't deserve to be forgiven by you, so why apologize.

 

Sometimes apologies seem trivial in light of the "crime."

[bentnotbroken]

I may missed this somewhere, ignore me if I did. But I thought Spark said she need to say she had forgiven face to face, not that the ow needed to apologize her. I thought she said the ow should, but not that she expected her to. Just that she(spark) needed to look at her as she said what she needed to say. Again if I missed, sorry.

[Dexter Morgan]

AGREE! on the selfish part. Both participants in an affair are being selfish. Doesn't mean that it takes time away from their kids. Sorry, in my case both of us have grown kids. Therefore, there was no time taken away from them. Taking time away from our spouses....I'd argue that one too. If the spouse is wrapped up in something else, like junior league, girlfriends, guy friends & golf....& they are gone anyway - then it's not taking time away.

 

sounds like a perfectly reasonable justification to me:rolleyes:

[Dexter Morgan]

Guess we'll have to completely disagree on the telling the kids part.

 

Cheating doesn't just destroy the BS...it destroys the entire family dynamic.

 

bah...its no use. They just don't want to hear it from the people that are actually and more profoundly affected by it.

[taylor]

I may missed this somewhere, ignore me if I did. But I thought Spark said she need to say she had forgiven face to face, not that the ow needed to apologize her. I thought she said the ow should, but not that she expected her to. Just that she(spark) needed to look at her as she said what she needed to say. Again if I missed, sorry.

 

That's what I thought, too, BNB. But posters got off on a tangent about some kind of expected apology.

 

I still would like to know why Spark needs to tell the OW face to face that she has forgiven her. How would a Hallmark card not say the same thing without the risk of confrontation or uncomfortable feelings.

 

I've been chuckling a little reading this thread, wondering what the posts would look like if it were a betrayed husband upset because the OM wouldn't have coffee with him..if it were a btrayed husband who wanted to tell the OM he forgave him.

 

How many times do you think a betrayed husband wants to sit down to coffee with a man who screwed his wife and tell that man that he forgives him for doing so?

 

Still trying to understand Spark's need to do this.

[Reggie]

Probably about as frequently as you'd see a BW requesting a sit down with an OW, taylor. I think the genders are pretty much alike in most regards.

[bentnotbroken]

Probably about as frequently as you'd see a BW requesting a sit down with an OW, taylor. I think the genders are pretty much alike in most regards.

 

 

I don't want Spark to do this either. But I did the same thing. I did very soon after d-day. I needed to look her in her face and say what was on my mind. I didn't care what affect it had on her, I did it for my own healing. It was the right thing "for me". I wouldn't advise it for anyone. But I do understand that desire. I thought it was just my nature. I like to want to face my problems/fears/insecurities whatever you want to label it. And I do think it isn't specific to gender. Some people catch the A participants and beat the hell out em. Some people are content to ignore. Some people try to ruin them publicly and financially. Whatever is driving Spark at this time. I pray she finds whatever she is looking for and is ready for whatever comes afterward.

[taylor]

I don't want Spark to do this either. But I did the same thing. I did very soon after d-day. I needed to look her in her face and say what was on my mind. I didn't care what affect it had on her, I did it for my own healing. It was the right thing "for me". I wouldn't advise it for anyone. But I do understand that desire. I thought it was just my nature. I like to want to face my problems/fears/insecurities whatever you want to label it. And I do think it isn't specific to gender. Some people catch the A participants and beat the hell out em. Some people are content to ignore. Some people try to ruin them publicly and financially. Whatever is driving Spark at this time. I pray she finds whatever she is looking for and is ready for whatever comes afterward.

 

I hear what you are saying, BNB.

 

But I think at this point, since the OW doesn't want to talk to Spark, for whatever reason, Spark is going to have to find the closure she needs from within.

 

I didn't like it when posters told me I needed to do that myself a year ago. It was unacceptable to me. But I really had no other choice. I wasn't going to get my way without barging into someone else's life.

 

I think Spark is going to have to find closure from within. She has forgiven this woman in her heart and some day she will find peace with that decision. But she will do it on her own, without the help of the OW.

[taylor]

Probably about as frequently as you'd see a BW requesting a sit down with an OW, taylor. I think the genders are pretty much alike in most regards.

 

Reggie,

 

I'm not doubting you, but find me a post where a BH sits down and has a civil conversation with the OM and tells him he forgives him for having sex with his wife.

 

If you can find me one, I will buy you a cyber cup of coffee:laugh:

[taylor]

When I was in college, I had a 2-year LTR with a guy who ended up cheating on me. I saw the pictures. He denied it. I broke up with him on the spot.

 

I terminated the phone conversation with many unanswered questions and no real goodbye.

 

SEVEN years later, after I was married and had my children, he contacted me to tell me that, yes, indeed, he did cheat, and gave a lengthy explanation. He apologized. I told him I forgave him long ago and moved on with my life. I wished him well.

 

Life is what it is.

[Spark1111]

That's what I thought, too, BNB. But posters got off on a tangent about some kind of expected apology.

 

I still would like to know why Spark needs to tell the OW face to face that she has forgiven her. How would a Hallmark card not say the same thing without the risk of confrontation or uncomfortable feelings.

 

I've been chuckling a little reading this thread, wondering what the posts would look like if it were a betrayed husband upset because the OM wouldn't have coffee with him..if it were a btrayed husband who wanted to tell the OM he forgave him.

 

How many times do you think a betrayed husband wants to sit down to coffee with a man who screwed his wife and tell that man that he forgives him for doing so?

 

Still trying to understand Spark's need to do this.

 

Look, I don't NEED an apology from her. I feel I know why she did what she did. I actually, if you read my past posts, have nothing but empathy for her, her actions, her deceptions. I get it.

 

There is no demonizing here.

 

We BOTH hope her son is doing well and think of him and his issues often.

 

We are, despite this terrible chapter in our lives, kind people.

 

No one has explained to me, to the positive, why she would not return a phone call two years after DDay.

 

I reiterate, if we have all moved on, and are all healing, and are ALL mature grown-ups, WHY NOT RETURN a simple, kind phone call? This woman, whether I was aware of her or not, (NOT) played a huge part in his life, her own life for two years, and by direct consequence, mine.

 

What is she afraid of? Or, what is she avoiding? Or, what is she angry about? Or, is she not healed? Embarrassed? Still snubbing me? I can't think of one POSITIVE, self-actualized, mature reason not to speak with me, the third person in the triangle.

 

Sorry, don't get it. Why avoid me? Why not speak with me? Is it easier for her to move forward by continuing to deny my existence? I know that is what is done during the affair. How could that still be true after two years?

 

Her son must have been deeply affected. He devoleped a deep attachment to my husband who vanished after DDay. My children were devastated, and she knew it.

 

If not for me, then why not return the call to see how my children are? I would love to hear her son has survived his loss and moved on to do well.

 

Why is everything so secretive? Why not call me back?

[jj33]

maybe because she simply doesnt want to reopen that chapter of her life.

 

It is closed. There is nothing immature about deciding that the best thing, from her vantage point is to have NC with you and your husband.

 

That is after all what everyone is always advocating isnt it?

[Spark1111]

OM/OW, how could I not still feel demonized by this OW? Maybe, does she have to continue to hate me to heal?

 

I am a good person, something he omitted during the affair. I know, I know, he had to complain about all my short-comings as a spouse, or, if not complain, omit any telling of my good qualities, for her to embark and continue the affair.

 

It was a lie. That's okay, I understand. But does she still have to demonize ME, to heal two years later?

 

Just trying to understand. That is all.

 

Do you still believe the spouse of your OM/OW was everything they complained of them to be? Is THAT a necessary belief to engage and continue an affair?

 

Is that a necessary justification you must continue to believe as you heal from an affair? Could that be a reason she doesn't return my phone call? That I was portrayed as a totally different, non-caring person from the person she is now, and first hearing on her voice mail?

 

Would that rock your world to know you had been decieved also? Would it hurt your healing process? To learn, for the first time, that your lover was maybe full of shiite when they spoke of their spouse as this evil entity?

 

OM/OW-- you are often demonized on these boards. I for one, will not participate in that.

 

What if your lover is lying? Big shocker, I know. What if their BS is a really sweet, caring person who JUST WANTS TO TALK WITH YOU? Would you return his or her phone call?Or not?

[jj33]

Spark its not a question of hating you or demonizing you. Its the fact that an affair can be very traumatic for an OW as well. And the ending can be traumatic.

 

And if its been 2 years she may feel that this is a chapter of her life that she NEVER EVER wants to revisit. If she and your H have been out of contact then maybe she just wants to keep it that way.

 

It has nothing to do with you at all - whether you are a good or a bad person or whether your H is a good or a bad person.

 

If you read the forums which I know you do everyone is always telling everyone else NC total NC.

 

Its been 2 years. THe fact that you called and that you have called again suggests that the chapter is still open for you. She doesnt want to revisit that part of her life.

 

Most likely she is not ignoring your call to hurt you, she is doing it because she just doesnt want to go revisit the past.

 

That is understandable actually. I apologize I had your story confused with someone else's. If its really been 2 years of no contact she probably figures there is NOTHING that you have to say to one another that can come to any good.

 

She is out of your Hs life. Its over. From her vantage point there is no reason for her to revisit that.

[jj33]

And no he didnt have to paint an ugly picture of you for her to embark on the affair. the man I was involved with NEVER trashed his wife.

 

And actually 2 years after it ended, for example if his W called me now and we hadnt had a business relationship together, I am not sure if I would return her call. Its just so long after the fact (almost 2 years) that I would wonder why she was calling me after all this time. I would call him and say why is your wife calling me.

 

I apologize for some reason I thought your story was different involving a relatively recent pregnancy scare but I cant find those threads.

 

if its really been over for 2 years with no contact... I think I would be likely to call him before I even thought about whether I would call her back. If I did that. I just dont know.

 

It just wouldnt make sense to me why would she call me after all this time. It would seem highly unusual that she didnt call within the first few months but 2 years later she wanted to talk to me?

 

It can take a long time for all parties to get over the affair. I would be wary about if someone in your position was calling me every few months saying she needed to talk to me. Hearing your pain I understand why you feel you need to talk to her, but if I wasnt reading this thread, I would be concerned about what you wanted and why you were calling after such a long time especially if we had never spoken.

 

Ive never been through a D day experience so I am perhaps not the best person to respond to your question but 2 years is a long time.

 

As much as this has obviously affected you as it would anyone in your position, the BS is not the focus of the affair. Or at least not in my experience - we never ever mentioned her. I know you feel like you were all apart of this and in fact yes you were because your husband betrayed your trust, but from her vantage point, its very possible that you were not a big factor in the equation.

 

What you have to accept is that your husband cheated. Its unlikely (tho possible) that she seduced him and chased him - possible but unlikely. Who he cheated with is not really the issue. And what she has to say or what she thinks of you is irrelevant to your marriage.

[tami-chan]

I am all about fairness, and thought, so was she. On DDAy she told my wondering spouse to be kind to himself, be kind to Spark. Just thought she was a different type of OW: educated, successful, in love, somewhat mature, maybe?

 

So, is this evidence that she could talk the talk, but not walk the walk?

 

I told my WS that everyday he has to face the sadness in his families eyes, and rightfully so. He has had to work harder than anyone to regain love, trust and respect from his family after his (and her) deplorable actions. And it still is a bumpy ride.

 

But she gets a free pass? No consequences for her. Not even a return phone call? I now think it speaks volumes of her character or lack thereof. And the possibility of running into her does exist. So now what?

 

If I see her, I will have some things to say to her. She was going for a fegree in family counseling forcryin'out loud!

 

I mean the ironies and the hypocrisies seem to know no limits in my situation.

 

The above does not seem to show you have forgiven her. You need to be honest with yourself. Your intentions are not really pure if they are, you wouldn't be saying those things above.

 

Let it go. She might be indifferent to you. Maybe she didn't really care about your husband that much. Maybe she does not like asking herself over and over again "what was I thinking, having an affair with that man??????"

Maybe being reminded of having been embroiled in your lives is revolting to her....who knows? Maybe she passed away. Maybe...maybe...maybe...

 

The fact she does not want to have anything to do with you....so, take the high road and keep some of your dignity and do NOT INSIST!

[Reggie]

Reggie,

 

I'm not doubting you, but find me a post where a BH sits down and has a civil conversation with the OM and tells him he forgives him for having sex with his wife.

 

If you can find me one, I will buy you a cyber cup of coffee:laugh:

 

I spoke to the guy and thanked him. Is that close enough to get me a cup?

[NoIDidn't]

The above does not seem to show you have forgiven her. You need to be honest with yourself. Your intentions are not really pure if they are, you wouldn't be saying those things above.

 

I agree.

 

Spark seems to imply that she forgave her husband because he worked for it. But she feels like the OW is getting a free pass by not having to work for her forgiveness.

 

Two years out, I don't think the OW owes her an audience. Not to mention, this woman can't even be called OW anymore. She's not been in this affair for over two years. The affair is over. Has BEEN over. The window for confronting the OW (in the absence of a pregnancy or OW having been a family friend) is two to six months, tops. After that, most people would tell the offended to let it go.

[jj33]

Excellent point NID. She is no longer the OW and hasnt been for some time. Spark if she wanted your forgiveness she would have called you.

 

She didnt. She exited your life. Now you may feel that was not the mature course of action, but that was how she chose to deal with it. D day happened and she is now gone from your life.

[Spark1111]

I guess I do not understand all of these RULES for contacting or not contacting the OW.

 

If two to six months is the acceptable time frame to contact the OW, and I had called her then, it would have only been angry and confrontational and harassing, to say the least. Also, he was still unsure on whom he wanted.

 

I was out of my mind over the length and depth of this betrayal and deception. Would that have been a productive call? I think not.

 

Also, I hated him for his role in this, not her. I wanted him gone, out of my life, told him to go get her, if that is what he wanted, and I meant it.

 

Contact did continue for about three months, while in his confusion, he tried to figure it all out, and of course, continued to lie about it. Until he did figure it out, there was nothing I wanted to try to reconcile.

 

HE initiated NC in Jan. 08. I remained hurt and angry for the next six months. The real work towards healing began in November when I left a friendly message, and pissed off, she called him at work.

 

So let's say that I am finally healing for the last two to six months, and I finally make a phone call. I believe I am within my time frame to do so.

 

Where do all these OW/OM rules come into play? Is there a manual or handbook out there I know nothing about?

[jj33]

Spark its not that there are rules. And in a perfect world she would be open to speaking to you. But she has her own healing to contend with and she while yes she inserted herself in your marriage, she never had a direct relationship with you.

 

That part of her life is over. She obviously doesnt want to reopen it. In her mind it is apparently between you and MM.

 

If she called him in Nov pissed off that you called, you have your answer. She stopped seeing him, she doesnt want contact with either of you.

 

The whys or what is right or mature dont matter. She wants this chapter closed.

 

I think what you are really looking for is an apology and certainly you deserve one, but she is obviously not going to give you one.

 

Do you deserve one? Of course you do. Im surprised that she called him pissed off really. I dont think she has a right to be annoyed. She participated in the affair and dealing with your questions or even anger is just a part of the consequences. One phone call isnt harrassment and the bigger position would have been to "man up" and take it.

 

But I do think you have to let it go. She isnt on the same page on this. Most likely shes embarrassed about the whole thing and wants to keep the past in the past.

 

I keep going back and forth on this, but if xMMs wife called me and (although I know this isnt true she has had ample opportunity to say something if she wanted to as we do speak on the phone) said she wanted to speak to me I would speak to her.

 

And certainly if I had no relationship with either of them, and there had been a D day etc. I would speak to her.

[White Flower]

This is pathos at its worst. I will never, ever understand people who have experienced the trauma of being cheated on, turning around and either cheating or becoming an OW/OM. Talk about an emotionally effed up psyche!

 

So this is the woman who you're hoping will give you some sane answers? Think about it. She found a way to role reverse and take the perceived power seat. Now you're the person she's victimized and she's feeling pretty good about it. Your calls have probably stroked her ego, in some twisted way.

It's either called an effed up psyche or coming full circle. Whatever you call it, it's a learning experience.

 

It may well be that typical thinking like this is what causes the OW to stay away from conversations with the BW.

 

And when you said earlier that after becoming an AP they usually don't ever want to go back to it, well that is so true so we agree on this. We don't ever want to do it again because we learned from it. No effed up psyche there, just a different process in a different life.

 

I don't understand the 'power seat' line. There is no power in being an OW. The W has all the power and even though she gets hurt in the betrayal she usually wins the game.

 

There is no way the OW is feeling good about victimizing the BW and her ego is not stroked by the W's calls. No way. In fact, it is the H who is doing the victimizing to his M. And in no way would my ego be stroked should exMM's W ever call me. She would be a woman whose life was affected by actions her H took against her in my presence. I am a witness to those details. If she wants to know, I feel it is my duty to tell her, but only if she comes with the spirit of wanting to know truth without being judgmental. She can blame him all she wants, but if she gets nasty with me I walk. And it appears that Spark did all the right things but this exOW is not responding for some reason.

 

My gut feeling is that this OW is either in fear or still heart-broken or both. Maybe even still in the A, but that is a last resort and not too believable based on Sparks story.

 

Spark, when you asked me the question on another thread I didn't realize you DID make it safe for her to talk to you, so forgive my post in making the suggestion on that approach. It sounds like you did everything right in approaching her.

 

Have you thought about knocking on her door? It might seem like an intrusion until she saw how friendly you were.

 

I do find it odd that someone who is studying to become a family counselor would fear communication with you. It makes no sense. My guess is that she analyzed your H's feelings over and over and he probably welcomed that kind of communication and attention but why can't she communicate with you? Truth is truth is truth, and for someone who studies the mind and all its emotions I find it strange that she can't help you understand all the emotions that went on in this triangle.

 

Maybe it has been too long, but I hope you get your conversation, Spark.

 

Best of luck.

[Cliche]

OM/OW, how could I not still feel demonized by this OW? Maybe, does she have to continue to hate me to heal?

Never at any point during my 1.5 year affair nor now after MM divorced and he and I are a couple did I hate his ex-wife. I was curious why she didn't hold on tighter to a man that I know is absolutely wonderful. And I hope she is in a happy place. Never did I feel hate, and I can't imagine the OW in your case hates you either.

 

What if your lover is lying? Big shocker, I know. What if their BS is a really sweet, caring person who JUST WANTS TO TALK WITH YOU? Would you return his or her phone call?Or not?

Even if my story would've been different and the affair would've ended, I would likely not have spoken to his wife/ex-wife. I just can't see how speaking face to face would help either of us heal. I suspect, Spark, that her reason to avoid you has nothing to do with you and everything to do with her desire to have a life after the affair. She may have moved on. And maybe you should try to do the same. She is nothing to you anymore. Nothing.

[White Flower]

Spark, I just wonder what kind of questions you have for the OW. I wonder if they are questions she can handle. It appears from this thread that some OW would be very willing to speak to you while others would not. Knowing what the questions would be would help.

 

If this question is too personal, I understand. You can always PM me.