Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Hey - you all..... I just believe that affairs are a separate entity ~ They tend to take on a life of their own. The other woman did not DO anything TO Spark to warrant an insistant meeting, return phone call or coffee. Well, now , this confuses me. So, I'll be "confused in minnesota" from here on:bunny:. Presuming their are kids involved, same analysis?
SummerLady Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 No reply, nada, nothing, zip, zero. It's been almost two years since DDay, and he and I are doing great. I know so many have counseled not to contact her, but I felt my situation was unique. When I finally discovered her existence, my anger and rage toward him was off the charts. I even told him to go get her, because based on the texts I intercepted accidentally, I would have had a bag packed and a foot out the door if I felt that much passion for anyone. He refused, and dropped her like a hot potato, with some continued contact for about three more months. He had to finally tell her to stop calling. My initial reaction towards the OW was one of pity. Hey, in a triangle three people get hurt. Reading here has taught me that much. And cheaters not only deceive themselves, they decieve each other, and of course, the betrayed spouse suffers the greatest deception. I talked my posse of relatives and friends OUT OF marching onto her doorstep and generally making her life miserable. I even, over time, had to forgive her as I healed. I never, ever confronted her or embarrassed her. So now, I am in a much better place, and seeking closure to this whole sordid sad affair, I called her. Conversation one: "Hi, it's Spark. A lot of water under the bridge. Just wanted to talk to you and close this chapter for good. I understand you may not have gotten my call in November. It's possible I accidentally muted my cell phone. But call me. I'd really appreciate it." Conversation #2: "Okay, I am at my desk now in front of my schedule and today is not good for me. But the next two days are fine. Just want to talk like two grown women over a cup of coffee, anywhere you choose, and at your convenience. I think I have greater flexibility than you do, so I'll be accommodating. My numbers are..... I am at work until....Then I'll be at home....I'll expect your call." Conversation#3: "Alright, I haven't heard from you, and I realize that you truly do not know me and I do not know you. I do not have a vengeful bone in my body, this is not a set up, I have only the desire to heal and close the chapter on all of this. My WS is fully aware I am calling you as is my counselor, so please call me back. Look, i want to get this out of the way. I do not want to bump into you at BLANK, or with my girlfriends at BLANK. I wouldn't think you'd want that either. I think as two grown ups, we can take control of this situation and put it to rest. Please call." Sometimes I feel like the only grown up in the world. What do you think posters? It's been a week, and I have one more phone call in me. Say my piece and close the book. Its Perplexing to me on why you want to meet this lady at all?? I understand if you wanted to have a brief phone call but a meeting? What do you want to get out of this really. Closure. Really? You need to physically have coffee with her to get closure. Listen, this is not needed, you need to let this go. I have been in your shoes. I had 2 phone calls and that was 1 too many. I do not think your thinking clearly on this one and if I was her I would never meet you. Why should she? She is what she is. You don't need a paint by numbers illustration on this you need to forgive, forget and move on. Let it go.....
confusedinkansas Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Well, now , this confuses me. So, I'll be "confused in minnesota" from here on:bunny:. Presuming their are kids involved, same analysis? What do kids involved have anything to do with it? You mean that if both affair partners have children? I don't know what that has to do with this?
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Yeah, don't meet with this woman. Every story I've read about one of these meeting, the Bs just gets hurt more. WTF is closure, anyway? It seems like one of these amorphous, new age buzzwords. Wrap your brain around this: this woman is not a person of honor. You will not understand her way of thinking, You will not convince her she has done anything wrong and will, most likely, never get an acknowledgement of the pain and damage she helped cause. Again, back to the old crimnal defense days. Victims would often console themselves with the concept that the crimnal, while in prison, was suffering in some way having recriminations about the effect of his/her act on others.Nothing could be further from the truth in most cases. The only regret they have is for getting caught and losing their freedom. You can see this mindset among many on the OW/OM forum. Many give no thought to the damage they have caused others. The focus is on their own discomfort. They are , truly, a different breed of cat.
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 What do kids involved have anything to do with it? You mean that if both affair partners have children? I don't know what that has to do with this? well, quite clearly, the affair has an effect on the kids lives. Do you feel the OM/OW played a role in damage caused the kids? Here's a simplistic example: Nefarious husband gives consent to a buddy to steal items belonging to his family. Guy does it and kids have no bikes. Does the husband's consent make it alright for the guy to take the bikes? See, the H has no right to give away what is not his. The crook knows this, unless he is an idiot.
confusedinkansas Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 well, quite clearly, the affair has an effect on the kids lives. Do you feel the OM/OW played a role in damage caused the kids? Here's a simplistic example: Nefarious husband gives consent to a buddy to steal items belonging to his family. Guy does it and kids have no bikes. Does the husband's consent make it alright for the guy to take the bikes? See, the H has no right to give away what is not his. The crook knows this, unless he is an idiot. Ok - intersting analogy...not sure I get it.......BUT - In my personal case. Both the man I had the affair with & myself - We both have kids. They were not affected by the affair. The kids weren't sat down & told...Well kiddos....Mummy & daddy..did this or that..yadda yadda yadda. Therefore, I still say - what do kids have to do with an affair or the apology that you feel is OWED to the BS? AND WHO tells their kids about parents sexual behaviors or indiscretions
HsMomma Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Wrap your brain around this: this woman is not a person of honor. You will not understand her way of thinking, You will not convince her she has done anything wrong and will, most likely, never get an acknowledgement of the pain and damage she helped cause. This was exactly what I tried to say as well - what Spark wants from this OW is what Spark herself feels is "right" and just. However, how can you expect right & just behavior from someone who was willing to carry on an affair with a MM?
bentnotbroken Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Ok - intersting analogy...not sure I get it.......BUT - In my personal case. Both the man I had the affair with & myself - We both have kids. They were not affected by the affair. The kids weren't sat down & told...Well kiddos....Mummy & daddy..did this or that..yadda yadda yadda. Therefore, I still say - what do kids have to do with an affair or the apology that you feel is OWED to the BS? AND WHO tells their kids about parents sexual behaviors or indiscretions The parents who get busted by their kids. So you believe your kids weren't affected. I KNOW my kids were affected. If a child sees a parent in tears and feels a parents pain, they are affected, no matter what one chooses to believe. The older the children the more destructive the affect. It is clear you won't see the need for an apology so there is no more reason to argue about it.
confusedinkansas Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 The parents who get busted by their kids. So you believe your kids weren't affected. I KNOW my kids were affected. If a child sees a parent in tears and feels a parents pain, they are affected, no matter what one chooses to believe. The older the children the more destructive the affect. It is clear you won't see the need for an apology so there is no more reason to argue about it. Sounds to me like you think that this other woman should sit down with the entire family & apologize. That seems silly to me. No - my kids were not affected by my affair. My daughter & I are VERY close - If there was something up or she was bothered, she'd say so. Now, kids CATCHING their parents - That's totally a whole other thing itsself. But that's not what we're dealing with here. IF that were the case their FATHER should apologize to them. Not the other woman. I just don't know why you'd want to bring her BACK into the situation - ON PURPOSE. Especially when there is really no way to know what she'd say. You can't write a script for her......She's a grown up too!
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 It is unrealistic to expect people that have been involved in affairs to apologize to those they have hurt. These are folks operating with a very different morality. They have very little insight into the effects on others. Kids are very clearly affected by the damage to the marriage but these folks either can't see it, or are really good at fooling themselves, as evidenced by having an affair in the first place. They are a couple rungs down on the evolutionary ladder.
bentnotbroken Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Sounds to me like you think that this other woman should sit down with the entire family & apologize. That seems silly to me. No - my kids were not affected by my affair. My daughter & I are VERY close - If there was something up or she was bothered, she'd say so. Now, kids CATCHING their parents - That's totally a whole other thing itsself. But that's not what we're dealing with here. IF that were the case their FATHER should apologize to them. Not the other woman. I just don't know why you'd want to bring her BACK into the situation - ON PURPOSE. Especially when there is really no way to know what she'd say. You can't write a script for her......She's a grown up too! But spark is also an adult who is entitled to deal with it as she sees fit. And yes the ow not only owes my children an apology, she owes her own children an apology and everyone she hurt with her actions, as does Mr. Messy. We will agree to disagree since we don't have the same value system.
confusedinkansas Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Ohh - Poo reggie. You have a right to your opinion - same as I do. silly comment about the evolutionary ladder....
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Yeah, I just heard my friend refer to me in that manner and like the sound of it. I'll whip a "Poo" on him.
Owl Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 I think that Reggie had it partially right for sure...it IS unrealistic to expect an apology from the OW/OM. It simply won't happen. There's no point in dwelling on something that you know you can never have. With that said...I'd also point out that EVERYONE is hurt by an affair...directly or indirectly. When one spouse starts seperating within the marriage, and starts emotionally investing in the OW/OM...they stop investing that same energy in their marriage. The marriage suffers. When the marriage suffers, the family suffers. When both parents are drawing apart, its almost always noticed by the kids, even if they don't know why. Mine CERTAINLY saw it happening too. And they were just as shocked and hurt to know that their mom had been emotionally unfaithful to me when they realized that this was the source of the problems. Even if they never understand the cause...they still see the "distance" forming. They still see the emotional tension...they still see the utter imbalance in the relationship. And if they don't learn why that happened, and what was done to fix it...they'll pattern their OWN relationships after this later in life. So the affair DOES hurt the kids, even indirectly. And frankly, I think that the WS most certainly DOES owe the kids an apology for their actions and the havoc it caused the family. My wife VOLUNTARILY did this back when we first started recovering...and I think it was a HUGE step towards rebuilding her relationship with our kids as a result.
Author Spark1111 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 Kids are horribly affected by seeing a parent crying, in pain, non-functioning after DDAy. Age doesn't matter. My children, like I, had no idea of the OW. They just knew their father was in some way....unhappy and somewhat hypercritical of me, and them, and growing more and more distant every day. We chalked it up to job stress. But they were losing respect for him BEFORE they even discovered her. Then, devastated and angry at him. He developed a close relationship with her young son. Hell, it all started when the OW asked my WS to help her with him. He was flattered and started visiting her home unbeknownst to all of us. You don't think that young boy was affected by the sudden disappearance of a kindly father figure in his life after DDay? My WS still thinks of him (more than he does of her) and we BOTH wish him well. I would express that sentiment to her, if she ever returns my phone call.
Author Spark1111 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 And yes OWL, my husband too has apologized to his children. Like I said, we are all working hard to heal.
confusedinkansas Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Spark - I think that if my kids would have been a factor in the whole process - (& saw the tears, etc) I might think differently. But they are grown. They weren't & still aren't aware of anything such as that in our marriage. They know other things - because of observing them - not by anyone telling them.
Dexter Morgan Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Never in a million years. I will tell you what I would do if I ever received a phone call like that......I would call up the MM & tell him (Breaking NC) to have his wife leave me alone as I was trying to heal as well. why does this not surprise me, that if a BS respectfully simply requested to talk, just a civil conversation because she would want closure(even though I wouldn't bother contact some OM)...you'd get all uppity and engage in a catty email to the MM telling him to tell her to "leave you alone"...LMFAO. But you sure had the guts to sleep with her husband wouldn't ya have? I agree your response would be appropriate if a BS called you with an attitude, but that isn't Spark's attitude at all.
Dexter Morgan Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Because he's an @ss. Because he's a serial cheater & he should get what's coming to him. Because he treated me like ****....... Uh, but you cheated on your own husband with him.
bentnotbroken Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Spark - I think that if my kids would have been a factor in the whole process - (& saw the tears, etc) I might think differently. But they are grown. They weren't & still aren't aware of anything such as that in our marriage. They know other things - because of observing them - not by anyone telling them. But quite a few of us didn't have grown children at the time of the A. And I didn't had my feelings from anyone. It was better for me to get them out than to let them fester and poison my family relationships. I personally know very few people who have had to deal with infidelity and did not have underage children. I have no doubt that some people have children who are out of the family home. That's even strange to me though, as I talk to my siblings at least 4 times a week and mother daily, so even keeping something from one of us is almost impossible. But I don't think our relationship is the norm either.
JeezLouise Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Dexter, we COULD start back in on how BSs are doing something wrong at home, or are nasty cold frigid spouses, and it is their fault that their spouses have to go look elsewhere for warmth and affection and admiration- but we won't and we don't. So how about stop with the crap about how the OW is a piece of ####?
Dexter Morgan Posted May 22, 2009 Posted May 22, 2009 Dexter, we COULD start back in on how BSs are doing something wrong at home, or are nasty cold frigid spouses, and it is their fault that their spouses have to go look elsewhere for warmth and affection and admiration be my guest but we won't and we don't. no really...have at it. So how about stop with the crap about how the OW is a piece of ####? gee, I'll have to think that one over:rolleyes:
Lizzie60 Posted May 22, 2009 Posted May 22, 2009 Ok - intersting analogy...not sure I get it.......BUT - In my personal case. Both the man I had the affair with & myself - We both have kids. They were not affected by the affair. The kids weren't sat down & told...Well kiddos....Mummy & daddy..did this or that..yadda yadda yadda. Therefore, I still say - what do kids have to do with an affair or the apology that you feel is OWED to the BS? AND WHO tells their kids about parents sexual behaviors or indiscretions Exactly.. I agree.. I've told this before.. parents who share their 'sexual' secrets and behaviors with their kids.. are stupid parents.. IMO. So.. that being said.. parents who cheat on their SO.. could still be amazing parents... All my MMs, who have children.. are great dads.. Kids should never be made a part of the 'mess' if it becomes a mess.
Lizzie60 Posted May 22, 2009 Posted May 22, 2009 From what I've seen in the past, and read on this forum.. some BS becomes totally 'fascinated' by the OP. They want to know them.. they want to see them... they want to know what happened... The OW doesn't owe Spark any 'details'.. OP: If you want 'details' why don't you ask your husband..
Dexter Morgan Posted May 22, 2009 Posted May 22, 2009 So.. that being said.. parents who cheat on their SO.. could still be amazing parents... If my father would have told me he was cheating on my mother, or vice versa, I'd disagree with the above statement. If my father had cheated on my mother...someone I love dearly, and hurt her, I'd say he is a down right son-of-a-bitch. All my MMs, who have children.. are great dads.. No....they're not
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