HsMomma Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Look, she's never going to call me back, and I am okay with that too. But, IMHO, she should have. None have convinced me it was not the grown up thing to do. I get the zillion reasons posted here as why she won't, can't couldn't and shouldn't, but I still think she should have returned my call. Spark, Not to be mean here, but it doesn't seem you ARE ok with her never calling you back. In the first quoted sentence above, you say you are, but then the next thing you say is "she should have." Should have is all relative - it's your should that you are trying to impose on her - HER should may be that she should move on with her life, leaving you & your H to yours. Being grown up isn't the issue here - the issue is that you are trying to impose your will on another person & that just doesn't work. You want what you want & you want her to respond the way you feel is appropriate, but you seem to forget that we all have individual ways of responding to situations. I really, really hope you can move beyond this resentment/unresolved issue of her not returning your call - it seems to be nailing your foot to the floor as you're trying to run - you're going nowhere but in circles. Best of luck to you!
samprez Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 I've been reading this with great interest. Here's my take. There is NO STATUTE of LIMITATIONS for a BS. I'm the WS and I understand this as well. If my W decides to confront my XMW then I have no control over that. Both of us made the choice to end up in our affair and have forfeited the right to control how our spouses react. What I've learned is the recovery from this is entirely personal and entirely dictated by what the BS need to do to feel whole again. I suspect that for some of the BS out here that even after a number of years there are triggers that send you back to the pain from the beginning of the relationship and leaves you feeling empty and frustrated. Even as the bad guy in my situation in full NC with XMW I harbor the desire to express my anger with her from time to time. Spark I think the real issue is that you are NOT over your situation. That's cool. I think if you accept that as the baseline, then dealing with your need to close the loop will become more focused for you. I have also come to the conclusion that is my XMW's husband ever decides to confront me, so be it. He has that right based on my actions with his wife. As I've worked very hard to move on in my life, I've done so with the understanding that my actions are on my permanent record and I may have to deal with this sometime down the line; in some way. Spark, do for yourself here and don't worry about OW's reaction. And by do for yourself, come to terms with what is really bothering you and focus on that.
bentnotbroken Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 I've been reading this with great interest. Here's my take. There is NO STATUTE of LIMITATIONS for a BS. I'm the WS and I understand this as well. If my W decides to confront my XMW then I have no control over that. Both of us made the choice to end up in our affair and have forfeited the right to control how our spouses react. What I've learned is the recovery from this is entirely personal and entirely dictated by what the BS need to do to feel whole again. I suspect that for some of the BS out here that even after a number of years there are triggers that send you back to the pain from the beginning of the relationship and leaves you feeling empty and frustrated. Even as the bad guy in my situation in full NC with XMW I harbor the desire to express my anger with her from time to time. Spark I think the real issue is that you are NOT over your situation. That's cool. I think if you accept that as the baseline, then dealing with your need to close the loop will become more focused for you. I have also come to the conclusion that is my XMW's husband ever decides to confront me, so be it. He has that right based on my actions with his wife. As I've worked very hard to move on in my life, I've done so with the understanding that my actions are on my permanent record and I may have to deal with this sometime down the line; in some way. Spark, do for yourself here and don't worry about OW's reaction. And by do for yourself, come to terms with what is really bothering you and focus on that. This is what I believe Spark was trying to say about mature adults, tell me if I am wrong Spark. Samprez, this is what one would hope an AP would be willing to do(thank you for being willing if the situation should arise)if a BS needed that. Whether we stay with our WS or not, the triggers don't go away. They fade, they become glimmers, they are fewer and fewer, but they still rear their ugly heads. So it does bother me to hear someone who may have had a part in those triggers say how a BS should deal with them. The ow in my situation told me to just get over it and move on (even though she was still very active in my life), but until I got what I needed with the face to face conversation, I did heal, but the spot was still tender if bumped hard enough. I appeciate your candid posts about your R and what seems to be an awareness in the midst of your own healing process. Again, thank you.
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 The OW does owe you an apology. But, odds are she is not evolved enough to give one. So, if you can, try to accept the unfairness of this and conserve your energies.
Ronni_W Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Whatever it takes to heal. ... None have convinced me it was not the grown up thing to do. ... but I still think she should have returned my call. Absolutely doing whatever it takes to heal IS the grown-up thing to do. But she is not obligated to help you heal. Your "should" about her calling would be appropriate *IF* she gave a tuppence about your healing. No doubt she WOULD have called...*IF* she was somehow invested in your healing, or if she cared whether or not she runs into you here or there. Yes, she messed with your husband, your marriage and your life. But she's not obligated to deal with that in the ways that you might want, need, expect or prefer. As much as that craps out. Maybe it would be wiser to keep brainstorming until you hit upon a healing strategy that does not rely on her or anything else that is outside of your Self? Mostly so you have 100% control of your process but also so that you won't become 'dependent' on external forces to maintain it after you have fully healed.
confusedinkansas Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 The OW does owe you an apology. But, odds are she is not evolved enough to give one. So, if you can, try to accept the unfairness of this and conserve your energies. OWES her an apology? How do you figure that? The affair wasn't an attack on HER....The husband, Yes, I agree he owes his wife an apology. But the other woman? Neither OWES either one of them anything.
NoIDidn't Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 I've been reading this with great interest. Here's my take. There is NO STATUTE of LIMITATIONS for a BS. I'm the WS and I understand this as well. If my W decides to confront my XMW then I have no control over that. Both of us made the choice to end up in our affair and have forfeited the right to control how our spouses react. What I've learned is the recovery from this is entirely personal and entirely dictated by what the BS need to do to feel whole again. That's just it. Spark is angling for a confrontation, not a lovefest. No one needs to actually tell another that they've been forgiven, particularly if the person didn't ask for it. If Spark said she wanted to confront the OW, that's different. The advice would be the same, but admitting to wanting to confront the OW has more honestly to it than wanting to say you forgive someone that didn't ask for your forgiveness. I suspect her H is supportive just to help her get through it. A loving H would be especially if he brought this drama into the marriage to begin with. My H would support me in the same way as well. Now, if I asked him what he honestly thought of my desires, though. I'm sure I'd hear he didn't think it was in my or our best interest. Spark, I'm not trying to br cruel here. I understand your feelings. But she really doesn't need your forgiveness unless she asks for it.
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 OWES her an apology? How do you figure that? The affair wasn't an attack on HER....The husband, Yes, I agree he owes his wife an apology. But the other woman? Neither OWES either one of them anything. Typically, when one engages in hurtful behavior, such as participating in an affair, one should apologize for their part. That is the way I look at it. Don't you?
bentnotbroken Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Typically, when one engages in hurtful behavior, such as participating in an affair, one should apologize for their part. That is the way I look at it. Don't you? :laugh:Reg, you are too cute.
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 I need help with my grammar, cuteness not withstanding. Should have said "his/her part". I've never understood the distinction drawn between the WSs behavior and that of the OM/OW. I suppose the duty owed is different, with the WS responsible for breaking his/her vows. But, it seems so obvious that we all have an obligation to treat others as we would like to be treated. Violating that obligation and particpating in something dishonest and hurtful to someone would sure make me want to apologize. Is this belief that the OM/OW has not offended the BS widespread? I can see no logic in that position, unless the underlying philosophy is that one owes no duty toward anyone with whom he/she has no contract. Following this thinking, one would have no obligation to correct things like receiving the wrong change, bank errors in one's favor, returning lost property, etc. Perhaps this belief is what explains an OM/OW's willingness to engage a married person in the first place. But, I am not aware of any accepted moral code which condones this way of treating others.
Author Spark1111 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 But the question is......Will you continue to "stalk her" until she does? Stalk.....now there's a concept. HAHAHAHAHA! Three one minute phone calls to a woman who has thousands of phone minutes, dinners, dates, trips and gifts and two years invested in sneaking around with my WS. Within 72 hours of discovering her existence, I knew where she lived, worked, divorced, exH lives with his new family, had all their phone numbers, including her boss......and did nothing. Don't forget, I was an investigative reporter. Had I wanted confrontation, punishment, revenge, all normal emotions following DDay, I truly could have severely ruined both of their lives...but chose not to. It is not who I am. Hell, I didn't allow my grown daughters to march onto her doorstep and tell her how they felt as they did with my WS, their father. As I told her in one of my "stalking" phone calls, I do not have a vengeful bone in my body. Had I been, as Reggie so graciously put it, "less evolved," stalking would have been the least she would have had to fear from me. I jusst wanted a return phone call. I gues she is not evolved enough to do so.
jwi71 Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Spark...are you still in MC or IC? Have you run this past him or her?
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Yes, the "stalking" allegation is clearly wrong. This is a person who inserted herself into Spark's marriage, albeit in conspiracy with the WH. It is very normal to want to investigate the background of a person who has done this , and to make contact, especially when the BS knows that the truth will not be forthcoming from the WS. Calling this "stalking" is just not well thought out. Three phone calls with no request to desist is in no way stalking. If it is, these mortgage brokers that keep calling me from California are stalkers.:bunny:
Author Spark1111 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 I need help with my grammar, cuteness not withstanding. Should have said "his/her part". I've never understood the distinction drawn between the WSs behavior and that of the OM/OW. I suppose the duty owed is different, with the WS responsible for breaking his/her vows. But, it seems so obvious that we all have an obligation to treat others as we would like to be treated. Violating that obligation and particpating in something dishonest and hurtful to someone would sure make me want to apologize. Is this belief that the OM/OW has not offended the BS widespread? I can see no logic in that position, unless the underlying philosophy is that one owes no duty toward anyone with whom he/she has no contract. Following this thinking, one would have no obligation to correct things like receiving the wrong change, bank errors in one's favor, returning lost property, etc. Perhaps this belief is what explains an OM/OW's willingness to engage a married person in the first place. But, I am not aware of any accepted moral code which condones this way of treating others. Thanks, Reggie. I understand why it happened. I forgive both of them. I am healing and moving forward in my marriage, and in my life. I did not seek revenge to hurt them right after DDay. I have survived two of the most painful years of my life and am proud of my achievement. I have always taken the high road in my life and have always encouraged my children to do the same. If I make a mistake, I say I am sorry. And the bottom line.......I just wanted a face-to-face, mature, grown-up conversation over a cup of coffee....forcryin'outloud!
bentnotbroken Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 I need help with my grammar, cuteness not withstanding. Should have said "his/her part". I've never understood the distinction drawn between the WSs behavior and that of the OM/OW. I suppose the duty owed is different, with the WS responsible for breaking his/her vows. But, it seems so obvious that we all have an obligation to treat others as we would like to be treated. Violating that obligation and particpating in something dishonest and hurtful to someone would sure make me want to apologize. Is this belief that the OM/OW has not offended the BS widespread? I can see no logic in that position, unless the underlying philosophy is that one owes no duty toward anyone with whom he/she has no contract. Following this thinking, one would have no obligation to correct things like receiving the wrong change, bank errors in one's favor, returning lost property, etc. Perhaps this belief is what explains an OM/OW's willingness to engage a married person in the first place. But, I am not aware of any accepted moral code which condones this way of treating others. It seems to be. Unfortunately, it isn't just with the cheating. The thing I find funniest is that the no contact or face to face meeting with the BS doesn't mean you aren't having contact. Having sex with a MM person leads to the assumption, especially if the couple is living together, that sex however infrequent is happening. That means both the AP and the BS are having sex with the same person, contact. The exposure that the ow in my case had with people other than Mr. Messy, means that I had that same exposure. If nothing else I think an apologies to exposure to others is necessary. But that's just me. I don't know of any code of conduct that believes treating others the way you want to be treated isn't necessary.
Author Spark1111 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 Spark...are you still in MC or IC? Have you run this past him or her? Oh, certainly. As cheaters are often people of low self-esteem who avoid conflict at any cost, he counseled me not to expect a return phone call, but if making the gesture of offering the olive branch empowered me in my path to healing, so be it. It did.
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 As I have said in the past, I think the difficulty many BSs have in this whole process is that we cannot accept that there are people in this world that have very little in the way of a conscience. So, it becomes frustrating when they do not act as though they have one. I was able to "grok" this when I was younger and doing criminal defense. It became apparent to me that the vast majority of my clients considered only two factors in order to determine whether to act on their desires: risk of being caught and the potential reward. Nothing else was factored in. You could be absolutely certain that if their assessment of these factors weighed in favor of going for it, they would. There was absolutely no consideration of the effect of their actions on others. Little old lady leaves her purse at the bus stop-it's a no brainer for these folks. She may starve for or lose her house-not a factor. Once you wrap your brain around this concept, it is easier to accept that this is what these folks do. No remorse.
confusedinkansas Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Yes, the "stalking" allegation is clearly wrong. This is a person who inserted herself into Spark's marriage, albeit in conspiracy with the WH. :bunny: I just don't get where anyone here gets off saying that the OW owes Sparks an apology. I don't think she owes her anything. What's she expect her to say? HER Husband allowed this "intruder" into their marriage. (I still disagree that ANY OW is "in" the marriage - I think affairs are totally separate FROM a marriage) I think that if someone doesn't call you back (even in business) after one or 2 phone calls. They don't want to talk to you PERIOD! Calling again is just bordering "stalking." And, Spark, why is it that you are SO determined that you are the grown up here. Perhaps she's being a grown up by not being confrontational with you. (& like all have said here, you don't know what kind of a "coffee talk" you'd be walking into)
Ronni_W Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 I just wanted a face-to-face, mature, grown-up conversation over a cup of coffee....forcryin'outloud! Spark, it was absolutely adult and appropriate for you to ask for what you wanted...ONCE. It's the "crying out loud" part that is NOT grown-up; that is more reminiscent of a 2-year old throwing a tantrum for not getting what it wants.
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Well, confused, don't you think the OW participated in behavior that hurt Spark and was wrong to do so? Why on earth would this not warrant an apology?
confusedinkansas Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Well, confused, don't you think the OW participated in behavior that hurt Spark and was wrong to do so? Why on earth would this not warrant an apology? No - I don't think the affair had anything to do with Spark. Which is why I don't think that the other woman owes her anything - Guess I just think they both should be allowed to get on with their respective lives............two years later.
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 I just don't get where anyone here gets off saying that the OW owes Sparks an apology. I don't think she owes her anything. What's she expect her to say? HER Husband allowed this "intruder" into their marriage. (I still disagree that ANY OW is "in" the marriage - I think affairs are totally separate FROM a marriage) I think that if someone doesn't call you back (even in business) after one or 2 phone calls. They don't want to talk to you PERIOD! Calling again is just bordering "stalking." And, Spark, why is it that you are SO determined that you are the grown up here. Perhaps she's being a grown up by not being confrontational with you. (& like all have said here, you don't know what kind of a "coffee talk" you'd be walking into) To me, this makes no sense. Her husband's consent does not negate the wrong. Clearly, a another party(the WS) has no standing to give permission to cause harm to another. And, who cares if one considers the OW "in" the marriage. That is just semantics. If I burglarize a home, I am not in the marriage. Is there any question I've harmed the owners?
Reggie Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 No - I don't think the affair had anything to do with Spark. Which is why I don't think that the other woman owes her anything - Guess I just think they both should be allowed to get on with their respective lives............two years later. Two years is dick in terms of recovering. Nothing to do with her? WTF? What mental gymnastics did you have to perform to reach that conclusion?
bentnotbroken Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 As I have said in the past, I think the difficulty many BSs have in this whole process is that we cannot accept that there are people in this world that have very little in the way of a conscience. So, it becomes frustrating when they do not act as though they have one. I was able to "grok" this when I was younger and doing criminal defense. It became apparent to me that the vast majority of my clients considered only two factors in order to determine whether to act on their desires: risk of being caught and the potential reward. Nothing else was factored in. You could be absolutely certain that if their assessment of these factors weighed in favor of going for it, they would. There was absolutely no consideration of the effect of their actions on others. Little old lady leaves her purse at the bus stop-it's a no brainer for these folks. She may starve for or lose her house-not a factor. Once you wrap your brain around this concept, it is easier to accept that this is what these folks do. No remorse. Badura said we are reward seeking and punishment avoiding. I do agree we expect the same level of personal responsibility that we possess to be in others. Though it is clear, that is not the case.
confusedinkansas Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 No - I don't think the affair had anything to do with Spark. Which is why I don't think that the other woman owes her anything - Guess I just think they both should be allowed to get on with their respective lives............two years later. Hey - you all..... I just believe that affairs are a separate entity ~ They tend to take on a life of their own. The other woman did not DO anything TO Spark to warrant an insistant meeting, return phone call or coffee.
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