Author Spark1111 Posted May 19, 2009 Author Posted May 19, 2009 She more than likely 1)doesn't care at all and figures why should she bother talking to you since she didn't care to begin with while having the A with your H and, doesn't feel she owes you anything. 2)She isn't over it and talking to you will open up wounds for her so it's easier for her not to call you back. WWIU, could all very well be true. I believe she believed a future was guaranteed with my H. Hell, even I thought so. What is maybe the final irony is her husband left her for his last AP, remarried, and they still have bitter and acrimonious divorce-related lawsuits against each other. She was working hard to have their son hate his father when my WS exited his affair with her. So sad. And I believe revenge was a subconscious motive in her pursuit of my WS. Having lived through this horror herself, it makes it all the more difficult to understand her perpetrating this carnage on another innocent woman. Needed to feel empowered by casting herself in the role of AP? Still needing revenge against her xWS that she was still obsessed with? I guess I'll never know. nd you know what, I am okay with it....NOW. Return phone call or not.
pparrott Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Spark - Everyone heals differently. Perhaps she's moved on & doesn't want it dug up again. You say you're "calm" about this. Can you be 100% sure that if you faced this woman over coffee that you could stay calm. Are you 100% sure what SHE would say to you? Have you thought that maybe she will say things to you that you don't already know....something your husband might have left out.....How could you be SO sure that this would be a positive experience. Let her move on with her life. You should do the same. Perhaps if you are so determined to "Contact" her....Maybe write her a letter & burn it. Close the book. Move on -
jwi71 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Spark, Resist the urge. I know how the anger and despair and the sense of injustice bubbles up. And I know the urge to act on it...to call...but its pointless. What will you say? What GOOD comes of it? None. You'll just reopen old wounds. Let that anger and dull ache come and pass. It does. It's only natural to feel as you do. Just don't ACT on it. Find comfort and peace within yourself. In fact, I suggest when this bubbles up...talk to your H and NOT her. Should you meet in public...have pity and sympathy for her. No need to speak, no need to glare. As your life has recovered (recovering) hers continues a downward spiral. It is horrible for HER...no need to rub ANYTHING in. Because should you ever speak to her...that is how she will interpret it. Your life is recovered blah blah blah...her H left her, YOUR H left her...her life is in tatters...get it? Just walk. Let her be. Say a prayer for her.
Trialbyfire Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 So sad. And I believe revenge was a subconscious motive in her pursuit of my WS. Having lived through this horror herself, it makes it all the more difficult to understand her perpetrating this carnage on another innocent woman. Needed to feel empowered by casting herself in the role of AP? Still needing revenge against her xWS that she was still obsessed with?This is pathos at its worst. I will never, ever understand people who have experienced the trauma of being cheated on, turning around and either cheating or becoming an OW/OM. Talk about an emotionally effed up psyche! So this is the woman who you're hoping will give you some sane answers? Think about it. She found a way to role reverse and take the perceived power seat. Now you're the person she's victimized and she's feeling pretty good about it. Your calls have probably stroked her ego, in some twisted way.
HsMomma Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Spark, Having been in your shoes with my ex-husband, I know exactly where you're coming from....BUT....imho, to forgive is inclusive of closure in & of itself. If you have indeed forgiven, then that in itself is your closure. I was in an incredibly similar situation & I did indeed "run into the OW" in a neighborhood hangout where I was with my girlfriends during a "Happy Hour" (which was more of a b*tch session, honestly! ). Here we sat, doing our thing, & in walks the OW. Well, you can imagine that my girlfriends were sucking all the oxygen outta the bar trying to decide what to do - how was I going to handle it? Should they do something? I looked at the OW, gave her a slight nod to acknowledge I'd seen her & that was the last time I looked at her until she left. You see, you've been hoping/expecting some sort of "grown-up" behavior from her (according to your original post), but sometimes we ourselves have to just take the high road. By truly forgiving her & your WS, and IF you should run into her, you'll have already taken the high road. There will be no need for being uncomfortable or confrontational or for even speaking to her at all. I wish you for the peace that comes with true forgiveness - let me tell you, when you achieve it (and I KNOW how long it can take from my own experience), it will surpass whatever peace you might've felt had she returned your calls. Take care of yourself!
jj33 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Ive said it before and I will say it again. Spark you want this to be civilized. Its not. She slept with your husband. There is nothing civilized and pleasant about that unless you were intentionally turning a blind eye and you certainly were not. Nothing she can say will make it better. It would be unkind for her to tell you the details and it is not her responsibility to tell you the details. I can understand if I were in your position I would want confirmation. You have this idea that she should be on her best manners with you - that she owes you something? She may in a moral sense but didnt you say she faked a pregnancy or that she had a child? NO good can come from speaking to her. What if she was unapologetic? Then you would be angry. She doesnt know that you wont fly into a rage and indeed neither do you. She doesnt know what you want and she wants to let sleeping dogs lie. The A has been over for a long time. By saying you want to close the chapter you are clearly stating that she has some ongoing role in your marriage. But she doesnt. The problem is either that you and your H are not doing as well as you say you are, or you need more time to be able to fully trust your H again. But neither of these things have ANYTHING to do with the OW.
Author Spark1111 Posted May 19, 2009 Author Posted May 19, 2009 JJ, I now have all the information I need regarding the affair. I don't want to or care to grill her. I have a handle on the lies they told each other to keep it going, to sustain it. We are doing great. In a 32-year relationship --we were 15 and 17 when we first met-- his affair with her was the only thing we did not share. I am learning what caused it and what sustained it. There is no blame here or vengefulness. It is done, for him, for her and for me. I can't help my curiousity. My first career was as an investigative reporter. It is my nature to be this way. Meeting her again (I only have a vague memory of her the two times we did meet) would truly be the final closure I need)to let it all go. Alas, it looks like it is not meant to be. And I can live with that. I wanted to find things to admire about her, because he so did, and I love him. I don't believe she was the horrible, immoral skank as some posters suggest. To hate her would only demean him. He was in love with her. Jeez, she must have had some redeeming qualities, otherwise, what does that say about him? That is no different than the OW who trash the BSs. There is no way we had an open marriage, or I ever turned a blind eye to his outside activities. He was a devoted, loving family man who was always passionate about me. I was never here for his money or status, or to preserve a way of life or a standing in the community. In fact, most of that was lost at DDay, when people, incredulous that that happened to us, distanced themselves from the messy splashback. She did too. Just trying to understand the train wreck he became when he crashed into the car wreck, that was her. Would you return an open, honest and heartfelt phone call from the BS seeking closure all this time later? Yes, no, why or why not?
noreply110 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Spark, You and I came to the OW/OM board for the same reasons. We wanted to understand the motives of the "vile" women who had "stolen" our husbands. And what we came away with was an understanding that surprised us both. These women are hurting, in a different way from us, but still in pain. We also learned (I am generalizing) the majority of OW don't give a lot of thought to the BS. Forgive me for assuming, but based on your statements, you want her to open up to you, and explain how she could sleep with a mm. I understand that, from the bottom of my heart. But you are assuming she thought about it like that. What answer could she possibly give that would give you more closure then you have now? Personally, I completely understand the want to know everything from every angle. It would make me feel more in control of that time. But I also know that all this person could possibly tell me is their version, how they saw it. And I cannot hear the future she had planned in her head. I am not angry at the OW anymore. I am not obssesed. But rarely I will daydream about meeting her and saying everything I have to say. I must tell you, I am very well spoken in that daydream. But that's where it needs to stay. Even if I did run into her. For my marriage, and for my sanity. Good luck Spark.
confusedinkansas Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Would you return an open, honest and heartfelt phone call from the BS seeking closure all this time later? Yes, no, why or why not? Never in a million years. I will tell you what I would do if I ever received a phone call like that......I would call up the MM & tell him (Breaking NC) to have his wife leave me alone as I was trying to heal as well. And if she continued to call me - I would continue to contact him. Even if he never responded - HOPING he would get the message to her to leave me alone. That just because she was trying to find something to ADMIRE about me, I would have no desire to ADMIRE HER....because odds are her husband filled me in on everything horrible that he felt she was doing in the marriage. Men & women that have affairs NORMALLY use the person they are having the affair with as a sounding board to their own marriage. (it was how my affair was....we both bitched about our spouses)...OR perhaps she's just plain hurt that he picked YOU instead of HER?
bentnotbroken Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Never in a million years. I will tell you what I would do if I ever received a phone call like that......I would call up the MM & tell him (Breaking NC) to have his wife leave me alone as I was trying to heal as well. And if she continued to call me - I would continue to contact him. Even if he never responded - HOPING he would get the message to her to leave me alone. That just because she was trying to find something to ADMIRE about me, I would have no desire to ADMIRE HER....because odds are her husband filled me in on everything horrible that he felt she was doing in the marriage. Men & women that have affairs NORMALLY use the person they are having the affair with as a sounding board to their own marriage. (it was how my affair was....we both bitched about our spouses)...OR perhaps she's just plain hurt that he picked YOU instead of HER? Oh my. Of course he did. How else would he justify his deceitful behavior to you and your behavior to him. It's interesting you don't like the negative generalizations that are made about OW/OM, but you seem to have no problems using the negative generalizations about the BS. Why?
jj33 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 I met his W after it was over. And I have since spoken to her on the phone several times. She is not a betrayed spouse - so its different. The first time she met me she was very clearly appraising me, commented (favorably) on what I was wearing (she is a socialite and very fashionable so she appraised me very carefully). I dont think I was what she expected me to be - nor was she. Whenever I speak to her she is pleasant I am pleasant my calls mean money to her so she is always happy to hear from me. I dont know if she knows its been over for almost 2 years or not. Its not something we ever discuss. I cant say what I would do if I were in a relationship where the spouse was being betrayed. I wouldnt ever put myself in that situation.
confusedinkansas Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Oh my. Of course he did. How else would he justify his deceitful behavior to you and your behavior to him. It's interesting you don't like the negative generalizations that are made about OW/OM, but you seem to have no problems using the negative generalizations about the BS. Why? Where is my negative generalization about the BS (whatever BS means)
jj33 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Spark I know you werent turning a blind eye and you were deeply hurt. What I meant was as she knew she was doing this behind your back she may not be able to face up to speaking to you. If MMs wife had ever said anything to me I would have spoken to her. My sense is she would have been catty if she did. But it doesnt really interest her. I almost wish she had. I was fascinated and repulsed by the idea that she could be married to someone who I thought was so wonderful and have such an arms length relationship. And yes if she called I would speak to her. She makes little comments sometimes e.g., "oh Im so pleased you and my darlilng H are doing such wonderful things IN BUSINESS together". But there is nothing you can say to that, especially after so much time has passed.
bentnotbroken Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Where is my negative generalization about the BS (whatever BS means) BS= betrayed spouse. The negative came in both people saying how horrible the BS is. It isn't always that way. There have even been posters on here who have had A's and said that there were married to great people. Whatever the brokenness was within the person having the A allows them to only create and magnify anything that will create a type of unfair picture of the BS.
Author Spark1111 Posted May 19, 2009 Author Posted May 19, 2009 Spark, You and I came to the OW/OM board for the same reasons. We wanted to understand the motives of the "vile" women who had "stolen" our husbands. And what we came away with was an understanding that surprised us both. These women are hurting, in a different way from us, but still in pain. We also learned (I am generalizing) the majority of OW don't give a lot of thought to the BS. Forgive me for assuming, but based on your statements, you want her to open up to you, and explain how she could sleep with a mm. I understand that, from the bottom of my heart. But you are assuming she thought about it like that. What answer could she possibly give that would give you more closure then you have now? Personally, I completely understand the want to know everything from every angle. It would make me feel more in control of that time. But I also know that all this person could possibly tell me is their version, how they saw it. And I cannot hear the future she had planned in her head. I am not angry at the OW anymore. I am not obssesed. But rarely I will daydream about meeting her and saying everything I have to say. I must tell you, I am very well spoken in that daydream. But that's where it needs to stay. Even if I did run into her. For my marriage, and for my sanity. Good luck Spark. You know what I would say to her, and based on three left messages with no anger or acrimony in my voice: I forgive you. When DDay struck, I protected you from others. I would never allow anyone to inadvertantly hurt a child, even your child. I am NOT the ogre he portrayed me to be (listening, Confused in Kansas?) I am a good woman, who loved him first. Just like you were with your exH when he did this to you. I felt your pain when my WS threw you over for me at a time when I hated the sight of him and you were waiting patiently in the wings to finally have that future you had dreamed of with him. This whole sordid chapter of my life is officially closed and I wish you no harm. JJ, thank you! I can certainly understand the million motivations why an OW would never return a BS phone call, but you would. So many of the stories detailing confronting the OW/OM are like ambushes, through the work line. I would not do that. I just wanted to tell her that I thought of her and her feelings from day one. Two years later, I wish she had enough courage to think of me and my feelings. That is how mature grown ups act.
jj33 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 I am generalizing but 9 times out of 10, the OW is not thinking of the BS - otherwise how could you do it? She becomes someone in the background. That doesnt make it right, but I think that is how it is. MM used to refer to her as a "family member" never discussed his marriage, very very rarely referred to his W in any context other than with reference to evenings he wouldnt be free. It was like he was single. I stayed at his house (not his main house where she lived) we went out all the time etc etc. But it was a very unusual situation. You have probably already considered this, but have you considered writing a letter and not sending it? YOu can say all the things you want to say and perhaps give yourself closure. It may feel better to be able to tell her you forgive her but maybe in a letter you could at least get it out?
jj33 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 And actually Spark and with no disrepect to others who are in affairs where the wife doesnt know I wouldnt be the other woman in an affair behind the spouse's back so to say that I would speak to her is ?? Its a totally different situation. I wouldnt be in a position where I had hurt or betrayed someone. She would never ever have called me in a million years. And if she had, but then she wouldnt be her, the only possible circumstance in which she would want to speak to me would have been to understand how serious it was ? and I couldnt speak for MM on that. And she would never call and ask me that question. So far as I know she never asked him that question either, but I think she knew that this was quite serious.
D-Lish Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 I "bumped" into my ex husband and the OW a few years after I found out about the affair and divorced him. He got her pregnant while we were married and she found my number and called me to tell me what was going on. I was heart broken- but I left him despite his intentions to try and work things out. It was weird meeting her. They are actually married with 3 kids now- she was 8 months pregnant with her second when I ran into them. My ex is super hot- and I always imagined she must have been smoking hot as well.... it turns out she was the opposite of me. I am tall, long blonde hair and skinny- she is short, dark hair, about 8 years older than me, and frumpy. It brought back unwanted pain to see them together. I was really thrown for a loop. I was in a mall and I spotted my ex sister and brother in-law and approached them and exchanged hugs.... then I noticed this woman standing there and they said her name and I almost died.... He came up behind her with "thee" child in tow and "BOOM" it hit me that this was the other woman! Anyway- I shook her hand and made a joke that "hey, this is awkward, but I am D, nice to meet you, congrats on your pregnancy...." I shook her hand and was nice. All I can say is that I had built up this image of this girl- and she was the complete opposite of what I imagined. She was nice though- and the way I look at it is that it wasn't her fault- my husband at the time made the choice to cheat Sorry to highjack your thread. I guess I did derive some pleasure from the meeting. I am glad I didn't meet her when I was still in pain though.
joyz Posted May 20, 2009 Posted May 20, 2009 Would you return an open, honest and heartfelt phone call from the BS seeking closure all this time later? Yes, no, why or why not? maybe, but, i think you were too agressive in trying to get her to call you back. for god sake, you left her 3 messages! she is probably thinking, why is she calling me? and if you don't stop calling, she might file a restraining order against you... so pls don't call her again. some things in life we don't get answers to and it's ok. there's nothing you can do about the past. your best revenge is to live a happy life, hereafter.
TOWinNYC Posted May 20, 2009 Posted May 20, 2009 You know what I would say to her, and based on three left messages with no anger or acrimony in my voice: I forgive you. When DDay struck, I protected you from others. I would never allow anyone to inadvertantly hurt a child, even your child. I hate to say this but what makes you think the OW even cares to be "forgiven" by you? Don't be a martyr. It has been TWO YEARS - even if you haven't moved on, she has. Do you really want a confirmation that you meant nothing to her? (before, during or after the A?) And these phone calls might even be giving her some sort of "sick pleasure" knowing that she (the OW) and the A is still creating a Major Impact on your life (deny it if you want - but if the OW and the A wasn't an issue you wouldn't be bringing it up). Don't give her that satisfaction.
bentnotbroken Posted May 20, 2009 Posted May 20, 2009 I hate to say this but what makes you think the OW even cares to be "forgiven" by you? Don't be a martyr. It has been TWO YEARS - even if you haven't moved on, she has. Do you really want a confirmation that you meant nothing to her? (before, during or after the A?) And these phone calls might even be giving her some sort of "sick pleasure" knowing that she (the OW) and the A is still creating a Major Impact on your life (deny it if you want - but if the OW and the A wasn't an issue you wouldn't be bringing it up). Don't give her that satisfaction. I don't think Spark should pursue this, but I do understand the need to see someone face to face and say the words "I forgive you". It is an the release of the final poison. It isn't so much the ow needing to be forgiven by anyone, but it is what makes us stronger if we feel we need to take that step. She isn't being a martyr, but they are "her" steps to full recovery.
Author Spark1111 Posted May 20, 2009 Author Posted May 20, 2009 Thanks Bent. you get it. I really don't care how she percieves it, or her feelings regarding it. I NEED to say it. Yes, this is strictly about me and my closure.
Tired03 Posted May 20, 2009 Posted May 20, 2009 This is like an outside chance - but if it has been that long...are you absolutely sure you have the right number and that it hasn't changed? I didn't read your whole story, so it's quite possible that there's not a shadow of a doubt that it's her, but...
delirious Posted May 20, 2009 Posted May 20, 2009 There is really no point in you saying to her "I forgive you". She did not do this to you, it was not about you at all. She did not do it to hurt you a all. So forigiveness would mean nothing at all, it would feel completely freaky. Is this something about if she sees you as a friend, or a real person, you feel she would not be able to have a relationship with your H again, is it that you feel that if she knew you, she would never come near again. Do you subconciously see her as still a threat. Just a thought. As an OW I am trying to help really. But seeing from her point of view, I would run a mile, so would my mm from my husband. It would be totally cringeworthy.
delirious Posted May 20, 2009 Posted May 20, 2009 BNB quote And these phone calls might even be giving her some sort of "sick pleasure" knowing that she (the OW) and the A is still creating a Major Impact on your life (deny it if you want - but if the OW and the A wasn't an issue you wouldn't be bringing it up). Don't give her that satisfaction.' You are demonising the OW, this is not how most OW would think. I think she would only feel like that, had she taken lots of grief from the BS. The OP does not want to demonise her, IMO she wants to see her as normal so that she can stop hating her or try and forget about her at least.
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