Our sisterhood

[SidLyon]

By 'supporting' the OW/OM isn't there a "sister" or "brother" out there getting the shaft?!!

 

Well somebody certainly is. :-)

[Island Girl]

Well somebody certainly is. :-)

 

 

Ahhhh Sid! No pun intended!

 

Should I amend that to say "kicked in the head"?

[Trimmer]

I have decided to do no further harm. To anyone for any reason. As I read through the threads I realize that hurt touches so many.

Then welcome to the fellowship of true humanity. There are some people on both "sides of the aisle" who subscribe to this philosophy. Why does it have to be "us and them"?

 

I am not a feminist, I simply believe that we women are unique creatures and that we should support one another when the opportunity arises....

There's something I can't quite put my finger on - the idea that we are all unique, therefore we should all band together and support each other as if we were indistinguishable... Reminds me of the scene in the Monty Python movie "Life of Brian" where the crowd is hungry for Brian to tell them what to think and what to do. He tells them "You are all individuals..." and they answer as one "Yes, we are all individuals..."

[NoIDidn't]

There's something I can't quite put my finger on - the idea that we are all unique, therefore we should all band together and support each other as if we were indistinguishable... Reminds me of the scene in the Monty Python movie "Life of Brian" where the crowd is hungry for Brian to tell them what to think and what to do. He tells them "You are all individuals..." and they answer as one "Yes, we are all individuals..."

 

I think you've touched on the reason I have a problem with the concept of *the sisterhood*.

 

To say we are unique but the same doesn't make much sense. And its usually a ruse by a person who would keep their *individuality* while trying to trick you into giving up your personal power for collective thought (group think and class warfare). Its "we are all the same, but I am more enlightened for saying so" in a sense.

 

No offense intended to Gamine.

[boldjack]

So sorry , Gamine, your sentiments may be good , but what you are describing is Elitist and discriminatory. It reminds me of Hitler telling the German people that they were a "special ", race, or Jewish Rabbis and Christian Ministers preaching to the "chosen" people. If all women are princesses, then someone has to be the peasant. Who would that be? Of course , men. ALL PEOPLE HAVE WORTH. As long as people concentrate on those things that divide us, WE, AS HUMAN BEINGS, will never reach our fullest potential. All of the evils of humanity stem from the belief that one group is superior to another, or more deserving than another. Though you mean well, and your words are pleasant, you are on the slippery slope to bigotry and sexism.

[jj33]

Precisely Boldjack. Its all VERY elitist. Where there is a princess there is a peasant. Well said.

 

And as predicted, this is starting to decline into since you are my sisters, you have no business f'ing our husbands -- the true point of the thread in my view....

 

Not really anything that has to do with support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner - (as the unspoken words are that "those" are not the spouses) just a transparently veiled and condescending way of getting an agenda across.

 

If the moderators feel that the thread belongs in this forum then fine. I'm just calling it as I see it.

 

And the initial veil - I dont hate OWs we are all sisters, has declined into I dont hate them, I pity them and in one case I am ASHAMED for them because really they want what all women "should". Its one person's opinion but wow talk about condescending.

[OpenBook]

Well Gamine, aren't you glad you posted this thread.

 

I see truth in every single one of the viewpoints expressed in this thread.

 

Figuring it all out in my head, is another story. Part of the human condition, I suppose.

[jj33]

To me it is reminiscent of conversion tactics. Many years ago I was in a place that was popolulated by people whose religion was largely animist. Someone explained to me that some years before, missionaries had come. They had explained to them that they were all children of God, gave them sewing machines and explained to them how their religion (that of the missionaries) would bring them salvation and a better life.

 

The locals smiled, took the sewing machines and other goods, went to church as and when necessary. The missionaries are long gone, and to this day the local population is practices animism.

[blind_otter]

I'm really asking from a spiritual standpoint and not a practical one. If my H really loves another woman and thinks about her all the time, I have to set him free. And I won't blame her for any of it.

 

Blah blah blah. Sure, you're right, but that doesn't make it hurt less to know that the one you have invested 10, 20, 30+ years with and raised children with suddenly thinks some other woman he's known for 3 months is the bees knees.

 

I recently witness a woman I had previously considered to be a good friend single mindedly pursue an exlover from 10+ years ago and steal him from his live in GF of 5 years. She had no consideration for his GF, nor did she ever tell him "Look, I'm in love with you but I can't be with you until you end your relationship so you can focus on us."

 

He still lives with the GF, and this woman is patiently waiting for him to decide when to end his primary relationship.

 

It's bull****. I don't respect her anymore.

 

It's all ivory tower and nice to think of women banding together in solidarity, as well as graciously allowing their partner to cheat on them and then leave them - but let's face it, most people in general will not be putting the welfare and happiness of others in front of their own desires anytime soon. It's just not a human trait, IME.

 

The only thing I can do is shake the people who engage in this behavior off of me and try to not associate with them on any deep or intimate level.

[Gamine]

All girls are princesses.

 

All men are princes.

 

There are no peasants.

 

We are all unique and we are individuals. Each one of us through our individuality adds to this world and to one another even if the lessons seem obtuse, irrelevant, or even unwelcome. There are decisions we each make in life to either turn our hearts cold and hard to to seek the deeper meanings. Doing so isn't weakness it is a sign of strength.

 

Anything seen through anger will appear angry. Anything seen through gentleness will appear gentle. If we wish to see the true innerworkings of our own heart we need only turn to our perceptions.

 

We are all sisters and men are all brothers. The two comprise humanity. Women have their unique path and men have their unique path.

 

We can all agree that there is a lot of kindness in this world and there is a lot of anger and resentment in this world. We can find imperfections in everything if we look hard enough. And, if we think upon our situation long enough we can justify feeling or thinking just about anything. But when setting aside the betrayal, the anger and the justifications for it aren't we all looking for peace?

 

There are females and males in the entire kingdom of living things each having their importance. Each having their own beauty.

 

It is a fallacy to believe that we should be divisional because it breeds disharmony, anger, vengefulness and hurt. Many posts refer to hurt as the origin of infidelity. Bad feelings about one's past treatment, about one's worthiness to be fully loved, about why we are justified in hurting one another.

 

A sisterhood suggests that we are really all seeking the same thing simply going about it differently. That we, while having our own individual life and experiences share more in common than we do in differences. And that, perhaps, if seen through love and compassion the way we see one another might show us another way.

[Spark1111]

Sorry, I agree with Gamine and Whiteflower. It wasn't my husband developing feelings for another woman, it was that they lied and decieved me to continue their affair. That's the part that hurts and diminishes my spirit.

 

They should have told me the truth. We should have separated while he examined his feelings for her. That would have hurt, but I and his family would have greater respect for BOTH of them today.

 

Perhaps it is the golden rule we should all live by: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And stop justifying all the bulldonkey in between.

 

Women, starting this novel trend, by respecting the value of other women, would be a great place to start I think.

[boldjack]

So sorry, Gamine, you are still practicing discrimination. MEN ARE NOT SEPARATE FROM WOMEN. We are the same species, there is no difference and MUST be no difference for Both sexes to reach fulfillment. Just the act of elevating women into a superior group, dismisses men as inferior. There can be NO equality as long as any one group believes itself to be above others. Instead of "sisterhood", had you said "humanhood", I would have agreed.

[White Flower]

Blah blah blah. Sure, you're right, but that doesn't make it hurt less to know that the one you have invested 10, 20, 30+ years with and raised children with suddenly thinks some other woman he's known for 3 months is the bees knees.

 

I recently witness a woman I had previously considered to be a good friend single mindedly pursue an exlover from 10+ years ago and steal him from his live in GF of 5 years. She had no consideration for his GF, nor did she ever tell him "Look, I'm in love with you but I can't be with you until you end your relationship so you can focus on us."

 

He still lives with the GF, and this woman is patiently waiting for him to decide when to end his primary relationship.

 

It's bull****. I don't respect her anymore.

 

It's all ivory tower and nice to think of women banding together in solidarity, as well as graciously allowing their partner to cheat on them and then leave them - but let's face it, most people in general will not be putting the welfare and happiness of others in front of their own desires anytime soon. It's just not a human trait, IME.

 

The only thing I can do is shake the people who engage in this behavior off of me and try to not associate with them on any deep or intimate level.

I did go through a very long journey to get to a place of no longer feeling the pain of it all. It was definitely a process. I could have spent my energy on hating the OW and hating my H for becoming emotionally attached to her but it just wasn't worth it in the end. I couldn't force him to feel that way about me and living out the rest of my life without that kind of love wasn't worth it. Letting go and moving on was the best solution for me. After stepping back and looking at it I couldn't harbor any resentment about the EA.

 

Not wanting to get into all the particulars because this is not my thread but I feel the EA between my exH and his OW was a catalyst to drive us to D for other reasons that we couldn't see at the time. They aren't even together now, but clearly I can see her presence in our life forced us to see the other issues we buried for a long time. I could hate her for forcing me to see all that or I could thank her. I am now free of a narcissistic man who didn't deserve my love and devotion but had it anyway. And my children no longer witness a man who constantly manipulates and overpowers his wife just because he can. I suppose it took an OW coming into my M for me to see I was giving this man way too much and not even being respected or appreciated for it. Definitely a process so if I appear to throw out a short and sweet idealism of how I see the world please don't think I didn't go through a very long process in order to arrive there.

[Gamine]

Precisely Boldjack. Its all VERY elitist. Where there is a princess there is a peasant. Well said.

 

And as predicted, this is starting to decline into since you are my sisters, you have no business f'ing our husbands -- the true point of the thread in my view....

 

Not really anything that has to do with support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner - (as the unspoken words are that "those" are not the spouses) just a transparently veiled and condescending way of getting an agenda across.

 

If the moderators feel that the thread belongs in this forum then fine. I'm just calling it as I see it.

 

And the initial veil - I dont hate OWs we are all sisters, has declined into I dont hate them, I pity them and in one case I am ASHAMED for them because really they want what all women "should". Its one person's opinion but wow talk about condescending.

 

Compassion and understanding can be a humbling experience. What we do, don't do, think, or feel... rests on ourselves. My agenda is to learn and to become a better person. I am thankful that I have the opportunity to learn from others and feel that my life has been enriched by being here.

 

I cannot help but wonder whether females in other warm blooded species harbor feelings of division.

 

Because the men and women here all have different life experiences and value systems does not necessarily imply that we are or need be divisional. Nor does it suggest that one wishes to subvert the other.

[White Flower]

So sorry, Gamine, you are still practicing discrimination. MEN ARE NOT SEPARATE FROM WOMEN. We are the same species, there is no difference and MUST be no difference for Both sexes to reach fulfillment. Just the act of elevating women into a superior group, dismisses men as inferior. There can be NO equality as long as any one group believes itself to be above others. Instead of "sisterhood", had you said "humanhood", I would have agreed.

 

Hey BJ, I'm thinking Gamine is trying to say, 'Girls, let's all get along'. I don't believe she is saying that women are elite nor that men are inferior. There's nothing wrong with saying that men and women have differences as there have been countless books written on the subject. Having said that, men can be empathetic, be very caring, and truly respectful, especially in older age. (Men can be empathetic as well, but it seems to be a trait that is learned and encouraged).

 

Yet, our history shows us that we have always competed for men and since we have come so far intellectually and spiritually we should be aware of the possibilities and the positive changes we can make presently. I suppose she is saying to think before you act and try not to be so instinctual even in the most stressful of times. I'm sure she would like to put that message out there for men as well but since it is a woman's nature (can't argue with the books;)) to have empathy she is calling on women to consider banding together on that premise.

 

Not focusing on you BJ, but I wonder if men are threatened by the idea of women banding together in a sisterhood of love, empathy, thoughtfulness and consideration. Would that wipe out the pool of available women to cheat with? Do men have to feel excluded if such a sisterhood existed? (By the way, it does all over the place it is just unspoken). If they do feel excluded it certainly isn't because women intend that; they would hope that men could benefit in society as well by the sisterhood, not in spite of it.

[boldjack]

WF, The very act of "banding together", based on sex is discriminatory. Could I become an "honorary woman?" Could I join the "sisterhood", and have my opinions respected and not be ridiculed(whether publicly or privately?), probably not. While I agree with Gamine's sentiments, I can't help but disagree with her insistence in separating women into a special group. The sooner we base our society on human value and not on special interests, the sooner we will all be "Princes and Princesses".

[blind_otter]

I feel the EA between my exH and his OW was a catalyst to drive us to D for other reasons that we couldn't see at the time. They aren't even together now, but clearly I can see her presence in our life forced us to see the other issues we buried for a long time. I could hate her for forcing me to see all that or I could thank her. I am now free of a narcissistic man who didn't deserve my love and devotion but had it anyway. And my children no longer witness a man who constantly manipulates and overpowers his wife just because he can. I suppose it took an OW coming into my M for me to see I was giving this man way too much and not even being respected or appreciated for it. Definitely a process so if I appear to throw out a short and sweet idealism of how I see the world please don't think I didn't go through a very long process in order to arrive there.

 

Well I think that this reflects a lot of reflection on your part - but in the moment it is possibly one of the most painful betrayals that you can experience - and I can't imagine a world where "women banding together in a sisterhood of love, empathy, thoughtfulness and consideration" is even an option, at least with things the way they are.

 

People are, from what I see and experience, almost entirely wrapped up in their own experience, putting their own needs, wants and desires above and beyond those of others, and while the needs and wants of those they hold dear to them are a distant second - god forbid they even move themselves to be aware of those that they do not encounter on a daily basis.

 

Perhaps it's just another sign of the decline of Western Civilization.

[White Flower]

WF, The very act of "banding together", based on sex is discriminatory. Could I become an "honorary woman?" Could I join the "sisterhood", and have my opinions respected and not be ridiculed(whether publicly or privately?), probably not. While I agree with Gamine's sentiments, I can't help but disagree with her insistence in separating women into a special group. The sooner we base our society on human value and not on special interests, the sooner we will all be "Princes and Princesses".

I think it is an excellent idea, actually. You see men all the time protesting on behalf of women's rights.

 

Perhaps we could call it 'humanhood' but take excellent qualities from the sisterhood as well as the brotherhood.

[Gamine]

So sorry, Gamine, you are still practicing discrimination. MEN ARE NOT SEPARATE FROM WOMEN. We are the same species, there is no difference and MUST be no difference for Both sexes to reach fulfillment. Just the act of elevating women into a superior group, dismisses men as inferior. There can be NO equality as long as any one group believes itself to be above others. Instead of "sisterhood", had you said "humanhood", I would have agreed.

 

BJ, the female and male expression of every species is 'different'. I do not wish to become male and do not desire to be 'equal', 'inferior', or 'superior'. Because in such a declaration there must necessarily be a benchmark for comparison. To what would I compare myself, as a woman, to? Equal, inferior, superior to what or to whom? Elevation can be seen similarly. Elevation from what and to what?

 

How can it be construed as a declaration of superiority when women illicit the good shared between them? How does that change the male experience? How can it?

 

Men can have a brotherhood just as women can share a sisterhood. The two, respecting their unique gifts, comprise humanity. I do not wish to be neutered and do not wish men to be neutered. For to do so is seeking to, by declaration, remove the very gifts each bring to life.

 

I believe we all have souls and that our souls are genderless. In keeping with this belief, I as a woman am born as a woman to bring to bring to the world my gift as a woman. I believe all women have gifts to bring to the world. Men have gifts to bring to the world.

[jj33]

Then what exactly is the point here? That its antifeminist to be the OW? That is violates the principle of the Divine Feminine?

[White Flower]

Perhaps simply that it's selfish?

Selfish with regard to being an OW?

 

That depends on what her intention is. If she only wants a R on the side and nothing more, then ends it she only borrowed the MM really. Not that the BW would find that unselfish because he IS taking something away from the M when he spends any kind of time with the OW, but it might be considered less selfish and certainly a repairable sitch if the W never finds out.

[White Flower]

Just selfish in that the only person being thought of is self.

 

I think that is what Gamine is trying to get at; that we look outside of ourselves and try to not trample on others to get what we want; to care whether our actions hurt someone else or not, even if we don't personally know them.

I think so too. I was selfish in my desire to get to know MM for sure. Yet, I was trying very hard not to trample his W in the process in case it didn't work out. Later when I realized this was a good woman I felt even more empathetic. She didn't deserve this and he was wrong to pursue me while still M.

 

Funny, I never met her. It was through him I 'got to know her' and made my assumption about her character.

[silktricks]

Yet, I was trying very hard not to trample his W in the process in case it didn't work out.

Could you explain what you mean here?

 

 

Later when I realized this was a good woman I felt even more empathetic. She didn't deserve this and he was wrong to pursue me while still M.

 

Do you feel you were also wrong to respond to his advances while he was still married, or do you feel this was solely on him?

[White Flower]

Could you explain what you mean here?

 

 

 

 

Do you feel you were also wrong to respond to his advances while he was still married, or do you feel this was solely on him?

I was wrong to assume that ALL MM who seek for answers outside the M will do the right thing and leave for his true love (this is what I meant by it working out) and allowing their W's to find true love themselves; someone who will give them their full heart. My father did this and I have seen so many others do this. When I ended it he blamed himself for pursuing me yet I reminded him that I didn't have to accept his advances either. If I got hurt, I needed to own that.

[Gamine]

There has been a great deal of ground covered in this thread. Shared have been true heartfelt sentiments in support of the sisterhood, and sentiments that oppose this philosophy or do not believe it attainable.

 

I believe it is attainable and that is a belief that I have arrived at because of the heartfelt sentiments and stories written by the women in this forum. Over the time I've been here I have developed compassion for the OW in ways that I had not previously understood. For that I am very thankful.

 

I look deep inside of my heart knowing what I feel, yet I cannot understand why kindness towards one another is an ideal that has engendered opposition? How can one become angry for wanting the best for one another? How is anger an emotion elicited by such a passive, loving subject?