amerikajin Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Amerikajin, out of curiosity, would you say your advice applies (in the reverse) to women as well? No, I would not recommend that women behave more masculine. Seriously, yes, I think it does operate in the reverse. I believe in gender identity, and I believe it is generally important for individuals to fit within these identities. Women need to be women, men need to be men. Obviously, that's a gross generalization that requires a lot of qualification, but in general terms, I think these rules apply evenly.
Bejita463 Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 I don't think Land Shark or b4r intended to bring you down. Just for the record. Their approach, while they had to know it wasn't what OP wanted to see, seemed generally constructive to me. I do not really understand the reaction. Just tossing my opinion out there Kizik. I truly don't think they meant things the way you seemed to take them. I'm not saying they are right or wrong, I am just saying I think you gravely misunderstood their intent.
Author kizik Posted May 13, 2009 Author Posted May 13, 2009 Amerikajin, I appreciate your advice. I have DEFINITELY been working on establishing male friends. They are honestly much more important to me than dating girls. However, I do think you tend to overstate this masculine thing. At a certain point, one has to accept the way he looks - which is NOT like Clint Eastwood. Likewise, I am a sensitive soul - not generally seen as "manly" - and I like that about myself. I don't want to change that. I do see your point about tapping into your inner "guy," but it's not something I want to focus on. I have too much going on in my life to worry about being "manly."
amerikajin Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 I appreciate your advice. I have DEFINITELY been working on establishing male friends. They are honestly much more important to me than dating girls. You can also have female friends, but as a general rule, it's better if there's little or no attraction from either side. There was a time when I actually had more female friends than guy friends, and now that I look back at it, it's kind of weird. When I reflect on it, I think a lot of it was that I just wanted women to notice me, so I'd spend time chatting them up. I felt like I was competing against other guys for their attention, so while I was friendly toward dudes, I think I subconsciously didn't befriend many of them. Again, I didn't see what was going on then, but I do now. I was extremely insecure about my sexual identity, which is not to be confused with sexuality. I mean that I didn't know how to project myself sexually. Thing is, I was told by other girls that I was decent looking, funny and all that...didn't matter. Whenever some "dude" would show up on the scene, they'd usually have a much better shot at pulling the chick than me. And I'd get all resentful and think "But I'm so much nicer than he" and "Well if she gets treated like crap, she deserves it" and so on. That's passive aggressive thinking, and it's also dishonest. It's dishonest because rather than coming out and communicating to your girl friends that you want them in a sexual way, you're trying to dress up your relationship under the pretense of friendship when in reality you want much more than that. Women can see through it. They're not attracted to that kind of approach, and it actually annoys them. Gradually, within the last six or seven years, I've changed as a person. I make it more clear who I am. I make it clear what I want from women. I don't play around or confuse myself, and I don't confuse them either. I wait to see if there's interest, and if there isn't, I just keep it friendly. If there is interest, well...you know. However, I do think you tend to overstate this masculine thing. At a certain point, one has to accept the way he looks - which is NOT like Clint Eastwood. Likewise, I am a sensitive soul - not generally seen as "manly" - and I like that about myself. I don't want to change that. No, it's not overstated. I'm not necessarily referring only to looks -- looks are only a part of the overall masculine calculus here. In my own experience, looks are comparatively much less important for men than they are for women, and I think it probably has a lot to do with our evolution. Women have historically needed mates who are going to be good providers. Historically, the men who were most desired, the leaders of the clan, were the ones who had a combination of strength and intelligence. Physical strength was needed to ensure hunt prey and do physically demanding labor. Intelligence was required in order to guide others, to take the lead in organizing groups to achieve important tasks. Women want powerful men. Women want men who appear to have some sort of power or strength, though it does not necessarily have to be brute physical strength. Intelligent, assertive, confident men who are socially appealing and respected among their peers are every bit as the guy who spends every day of the week in the gym -- even more so in a lot of cases. You have to reinforce your maleness in different ways, and in a natural way. I do see your point about tapping into your inner "guy," but it's not something I want to focus on. I have too much going on in my life to worry about being "manly." I don't mean you have to sing up for Brazilian ju-jutsu lessons; you have to find ways to reinforce your maleness. That can be a complex process, and it can be done in many different ways. But to give a few examples, it means being comfortable in the presence of both men and women. In means, being socially acceptable, and better yet, socially respected. On a deeper level, though, being a real man means developing solid character. It means understanding what you want from women, and being real about that and communicating that to others; it means integrity; it means taking responsibility for your own happiness in life; it means not putting your frustration on other people: if you're not happy with your life, take control of your situation; find out what you're doing wrong, find out what it takes to make your situation better, and do it; it means having an opinion on something and not being afraid to say it and defend it publicly, if it's what you really believe -- and of course doing it in a way that comes across as respectful and fair-minded (which itself reinforces your sense of confidence); it means something as simple as being a man of your word, being reliable and dependable, but not a doormat; it means expressing disagreement and disappointment through words, and deeds -- while keeping a cool head at all times. I could go on but I think you get the point.
samspade Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Kizik, I have to say, Land Shark actually gave you some real advice, and you lashed out at him for it. Yeah, he was a little harsh, but you sound like you need some ugly truth. Did you come here for sympathy, or for advice? You're headed in the right direction by realizing (I think) that there is something wrong in your protocol. But you have to work on fixing whatever that is. LS was right, it doesn't matter if you think you're a catch but no one else knows. Your problem is a lack of confidence and happiness as a single man, if I am reading you right. You need to project this and not just be a catch in your own mind. Forget all that "just be yourself" bull*****. Be the man you know you can be. I hope that helps. SS
paddington bear Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 Wow, just want to say Americajin that everything you've written is incredibly perceptive, well thought out and basically...well done you. I agree on your take on what women want - and I agree too that a manly man does not necessarily mean that he has to go and bulk up at the gym to look more manly. I've met plenty of men who simply have that quiet confidence about them, or are cheeky and playful that whether they look like the 'ideal man' in your head pales into insignificance because they are simply comfortable with who they are and that's very attractive. I do think too a lot of what you have said applies to women, the having more friends part, having a solid character, knowing what you want and don't, being 'you' and not what you think you should be or should dress like in order to be desirable. I guess the only thing that I would have a different take on is that it's probably good for women to either hang out with (not exclusively), or interact with guys. She gets used to being around the male of the species and gets to feel like a woman - I think life, workplace, earning money, can get so competitive at times that women forget to simply be, well, girly, and take compliments from men, and not always be some competitive driven person, if there's some harmless flirting going on, all the better, she feels more desirable and therefore becomes more desirable. I'm saying this as I have been that invisible girl too on many occassions, and I hear you when you mention that passive aggressive thing (in fact, I'm feeling pretty passive aggressive right now about a certain situation and you've just given me a big wake-up call about how useless it is to feel like that). I've noticed that when I've had a crush on someone, or just been on a date with someone, or even have merely been flirted with by some guy in a store...it leads to more men flirting, which leads to feeling better about yourself which leads to...and onwards and upwards. But when you're feeling sorry for yourself, and lacking confidence you don't engage with others, you don't look at them, you don't notice them and so you become invisible. It all comes from you, other people only mirror back what you put out there.
Isolde Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 No, I would not recommend that women behave more masculine. Seriously, yes, I think it does operate in the reverse. I believe in gender identity, and I believe it is generally important for individuals to fit within these identities. Women need to be women, men need to be men. Obviously, that's a gross generalization that requires a lot of qualification, but in general terms, I think these rules apply evenly. I agree. But I was talking more about the part where you said men need to be "one of the dudes..." are you saying that women hanging out with large groups of other women helps them dating wise, because I don't think it does.
amerikajin Posted May 13, 2009 Posted May 13, 2009 I agree. But I was talking more about the part where you said men need to be "one of the dudes..." are you saying that women hanging out with large groups of other women helps them dating wise, because I don't think it does. That's a great question. If I had to give you an answer, I'd say that tends to matter less on our end. Men are more visually driven and tend to be initially less discriminating when it comes to other criteria. If she looks good, we don't really care -- at least not at first. But it's not that way for women -- at least that's the case in my experience. Women take more criteria into consideration.
Author kizik Posted May 14, 2009 Author Posted May 14, 2009 Kizik, I have to say, Land Shark actually gave you some real advice, and you lashed out at him for it. Yeah, he was a little harsh, but you sound like you need some ugly truth. Did you come here for sympathy, or for advice? You're headed in the right direction by realizing (I think) that there is something wrong in your protocol. But you have to work on fixing whatever that is. LS was right, it doesn't matter if you think you're a catch but no one else knows. Your problem is a lack of confidence and happiness as a single man, if I am reading you right. You need to project this and not just be a catch in your own mind. Forget all that "just be yourself" bull*****. Be the man you know you can be. I hope that helps. SS SS, my problem wasn't that homeboy was trying to give some 'tough love'; it was that he felt he needed to be a jerk about it. That's besides the point. At this stage I honestly don't care if I'm a ladies' man. It sucks to see people jumping at the chance to ridicule someone's struggle to get back into the dating game. They use it as an opportunity to launch a personal attack. Of course there aspects of myself I would like to improve. That's precisely why I came here. To answer your question, I came here looking for advice - but not harassment, which is what I saw from a couple posters. In any case, who cares.
amerikajin Posted May 14, 2009 Posted May 14, 2009 SS, my problem wasn't that homeboy was trying to give some 'tough love'; it was that he felt he needed to be a jerk about it. That's besides the point. At this stage I honestly don't care if I'm a ladies' man. It sucks to see people jumping at the chance to ridicule someone's struggle to get back into the dating game. They use it as an opportunity to launch a personal attack. Of course there aspects of myself I would like to improve. That's precisely why I came here. To answer your question, I came here looking for advice - but not harassment, which is what I saw from a couple posters. In any case, who cares. I don't think LS was trying to goad you. He's typically been one of the more level-headed posters around here over the years, and I've been posting on this site since 2003. I think it's easier to offend someone over the Internet. We can't know what's going through someone's mind at any given point in time. We can't know what mood the writer's in, or the reader for that matter. We can't know how something that was written in cold plain text might seem if it were spoken with real intonation. My guess is that LS was speaking to you as he might speak to one of his buddies, who are probably used to dealing with his directness, and didn't think anything of it. I didn't see any obvious attempt to heckle you or provoke a reaction on his part, but I've seen his writings over the years. I have some frame of reference to work with. I think it's just a misunderstanding.
Author kizik Posted May 14, 2009 Author Posted May 14, 2009 Despite all the irritation and harassment (real or perceived), there have been some gems to ponder in here. 1) Just ask girls out! 2) But only ask the ones who show signs of interest. 3) But before that, learn what those signs of interest are. 4) Don't take rejections too personally; just keep knockin em out. 5) Just cuz you think you're a catch, doesn't mean you are! (thanks for that one) 6) Don't be such a pussy; your vagina is showing.
amerikajin Posted May 14, 2009 Posted May 14, 2009 5) Just cuz you think you're a catch, doesn't mean you are! (thanks for that one) A more positive way to frame this would be that not everyone is going to think you're attractive, but then again, even people who are 'attractive' have to deal with this. Perceptions about attractiveness vary from one individual to the next. And that's the real reason why you can't take rejection personally. Think of yourself: you know there are women you'd sleep with, and women you wouldn't. Doesn't mean that the ones you wouldn't sleep with aren't attractive enough in the eyes of someone else; it just means that you think you'd be more satisfied if you were paired with another woman. 6) Don't be such a pussy; your vagina is showing. I don't think anyone was calling you a p*ssy; I think people were just noticing that you were being perhaps a tad hypersensitive. I think people were also pointing out that this hypersensitivity can also find its way into your romantic life and it can burn you if you're not careful. I speak from experience on that one. I had to learn to chill the f*ck out. I won't say that I've completely overcame this flaw but I think I've come a long way in managing it. You have to be aware of it and keep yourself in check at all times.
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