LaGazelle Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 were you ashamed for him too? Oh, absolutely! And he was ashamed to have got involved with someone like her (cruel to herself and cruel to other women and in the process destroyed her reputation when she had things in herself which she could develop to improve her happiness). Once I disabused him of the idea that she really wanted to be used (even though she indicated that in her emails. Apparently her life was all a mess and even though she "knew he (was) too good" for her, she just wanted la di dah di dah....). He was eventually ashamed of that too. He learned a very valuable lesson. All 3 of us did, and my husband learned a lot about himself and the popular but devastatingly unhelpful images of modern women that he had chosen to accept. When her actions suddenly changed and she wanted more than just the things she used to make herself seem like a better easier catch than other women, my husband seemed to be taken aback. His friends were also present when she pursued him, and they knew what had happened because she is a friend of one of them. When I confronted the friends, even the one who was supposed to be her friend, disowned her and trivialised her feelings. That hurt me for her and as a woman. I kept thinking that if I had erroneously made the choices she had made, I could have had her awful experience. I had to explain to them that as a woman, even though she said she wanted to be used and behaved in such a way, she could not possibly mean it!!! I just can't buy that and it was clear from her emails - she kept wavering between "I am easy and don't need a commitment like other women" mode to "I just want to be loved"! Yet these are highly educated and intelligent men, but they failed to see through her pain and realise that her desperate pursuit and inappropriate,self-deprecating, self-jeopardising behaviour was driven by something unhealthy, and did not come as a result of her being "liberated". The important thing for me was that my fiance understood that, as for the 2 friends, we agreed to disagree when they insisted that some women just want that. The truly painful thing is that women learn the sort of nonesense that drives such behaviour even as little girls. I read a story relating to a court case, of the 10 year old girl who actually wrote in her diary that she wants to be a used by men because it will make her feel good. That was heartbreaking to read. No girl...no woman deserves that. We give birth to the world and we should recognise our power. I have not let my husband off the hook. I made sure that he learned what he needed about women, even if he didn't know it before or chose to forget it. Men are wonderful, and when they are strong they make perfect partners in our male-female dance of life - 2 imperfect halves that can join together and make a "perfect" whole. But they are not women and they don't possess the capability to empathise with finer emotions in the same way that we do. Too many women buy into the male fantasy and shortchange themselves as a result. Anyway, you can attack me all you want, I still think the OP should focus on herself and not hang her life on what the MM may or may not be feeling. If he is thinking about her, wants to be with her and is willing to betray his wife again to be with her at a later stage - her torturing herself about it now won't make a blind bit of difference. She will only prevent herself from moving forward, if she remains consumed by thoughts about whether or not the other parties are suffering. If the MM is also in pain, it will not make her pain 50% less.
LaGazelle Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 I couldn't disagree with that statement more than I do. Dunno where you got socialized, but it sounds like someone painted a very painful reality for you, one where all women compete and try to hurt you. Surely this has played a part in how you experienced the betrayal of your husband. Sorry you had to go through that pain, but it seems like you're still projecting it here in this thread. Not all women want to take "your" happiness. Not even the OW's. No one can take your husband, although he can stray. No one can take your happiness, although their actions might cause you pain. In the same breath that you say the above, you also say the following (quoted below - extract from your contribution to the Sisterhood subforum). Surely you believe female competition of the sort I described (even if you put your own spin on what I said!) exists, if you hate how it feels. How can one possibly hate something that doesn't exist!!!!!!? Yesterday, 9:56 PM #8 wildsoul Established Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 881 Quote: Originally Posted by White Flower I'm really asking from a spiritual standpoint and not a practical one. If my H really loves another woman and thinks about her all the time, I have to set him free. And I won't blame her for any of it. I fall on that side of the fence. Though when I was younger, I might have gone too far that way. If another women was coming on to my guy and he was responding, I'd break up with him over it. I just hated the way that female competition felt. That feeling was perhaps worse than not being able to trust my guy. Not being able to trust women was an emotional place that I did not want to go.
jj33 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 He was ashamed to have gotten involved with someone "like her"? Like it would have been less ugly if hed been with someone more befitting a catch like him? And you really believed those tired old lines? Well. That is interesting. Well I guess you are a match as you were ashamed for her and he was ashamed of his choice. Interesting how different people see the world.
Gamine Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 He was ashamed to have gotten involved with someone "like her"? Like it would have been less ugly if hed been with someone more befitting a catch like him? And you really believed those tired old lines? Well. That is interesting. Well I guess you are a match as you were ashamed for her and he was ashamed for his choice. Interesting how different people see the world. It is interesting how different people see the world. Each individual brings their experience to the forum inciting thoughts and emotions that challenge their personal life experiences that form their perceptions. It is through the sharing of these experiences and perceptions that we learn from one another. LaGazelle has shared her experience. White Flower has shared hers. I have shared mine and so many others have shared theirs. I have learned from everyone. White Flower's wisdom has been an amazing thing to share in. LaGazelle was brave enough to share her story. Because a person's story does not 'agree' with how one may see things, or 'agree' with their story does not make it any less real. It is not delusional to accept that each has their own journey. Their own story. JJ33, what is your story?
jj33 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 No its not delusional any more than someone else's behavior is shameful.
pkn06002 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 JJ33, what is your story? Use the search function and follow her threads. We don't need to rehash everyones story in every thread.
jj33 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Trust me I wasnt going to... my story is irrelvant to the fact that I have noticed that certain people buy into the idea that its ok for them to accept lame reasons for things but that others are shameful or pitiful or lack self esteem if they do so.
Gamine Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 For me, shameful behavior is when I have done something that tears another person down. I do not believe that I need to tear anyone else down in order to 'have'. If I cannot have something out of goodness, I do not want it at all.
pkn06002 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Why the defense of the OW always has to devalue the other posters opinion really baffles me? This "less than" filter really gets annoying and only serves to make people afraid to post honestly. Is that what we want? For people to only post what "we" want to hear? That would be a waste. What comes around goes around. What you describe about is what is done constantly to MM/OW/MW/OM here.
jj33 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Well then that is where you and La Gazelle differ - for a moment there I thought you might have been the same person as you seem to have entered the board at the same time with the same writing style
White Flower Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Just to clarify the bottom portion of La Gazelle's last post was something wildsoul said. We did post similar ideas but it appears the bottom post was mine and it wasn't. La Gazelle's post was one, I believe, that came from a place of empathy for one particular woman who by emails and other evidence desperately initiated and eventually begin a sexual R with the fiance of La Gazelle. La Gazelle could have used strong language such as 'this sleaze threw herself at my boyfriend' and tossed her aside like even her own friends did but instead decided to try to understand where the woman was coming from. Further, she could have swept it under the rug and hoped that it would never happen again. But she didn't want it to happen again so she studied it, forced her fiance-now-husband to study it, and worked through all the reasons the whole thing happened in order to prevent it from happening again. I believe she did this not only to understand how in the world this could happen to her but WHY in the world would her STBH stoop to such an act ESPECIALLY with someone who clearly lied to herself about her own motives. Not too many women will go to such lengths to begin a sexual R with a man who is better than themselves with promises of only wanting sex like the woman who approached La Gazelle's fiance. Merely claiming that the man is better than her signifies she wants to better herself in some way by association. It turns out she really just wanted to be loved (and this is usually the most honest yet hidden motive) but a lot of men will take what she said for face value (because most men communicate in this fashion) and not try to read the underlying motives. Most men don't understand that when women have sex they are making a commitment to their sex partner. Most men do not need a commitment of any kind in order to have sex. If she is offering sex only, he is going to take it! Of course I am speaking in generalities and what is usual. If La Gazelle's STBH really was a 'better' person than the A partner La Gazelle wanted him to prove it. She wanted for him to own up to his part in the R; that he took advantage of a woman who, knowing that women are emotional creatures, didn't walk the walk she was talking. They both knew she was lying about her motives when she hit him up for an affair and he went for it because it was free and easy sex. I for one am glad that La Gazelle encouraged her H to see where he went wrong. Otherwise, how could she begin a life with a man who didn't or wouldn't learn from this bad choice? She couldn't accept him as someone who would use a woman because eventually that would come back on her. So, kudos for LG!
White Flower Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 And to clarify once more, by 'bad choice' I am not saying the A partner of La Gazelle's H was a bad choice. I am saying that it was a bad choice to believe she didn't want love or a commitment and to proceed with a sexual R anyway. It was a bad choice to go ahead and enjoy her sexual favors when deep down he probably could see she was seeking emotional needs from him.
Gamine Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Well then that is where you and La Gazelle differ - for a moment there I thought you might have been the same person as you seem to have entered the board at the same time with the same writing style I have read LaGazelle's words and I do not see what you are seeing. I see her as insightful and authentic. I do not see anything meant or spoken with the intention of being cruel. It is her experience. Her feelings. Her thoughts. Her journey. And her desire to live a good life based upon enlightened behavior and choices. I find this in many of the posts on this forum and I think it is wonderful that we have the opportunity to learn from one another's experiences. A forum is an exchange of ideas. Some of them work for us, some cause us to think. Like LaGazelle, I could not be with a using or predatory man and encouraged my husband to seek professional help and to seek spiritual guidance. A person's intent, state of mind, and the state of their heart is important when understanding them.
White Flower Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 I have read LaGazelle's words and I do not see what you are seeing. I see her as insightful and authentic. I do not see anything meant or spoken with the intention of being cruel. It is her experience. Her feelings. Her thoughts. Her journey. And her desire to live a good life based upon enlightened behavior and choices. I find this in many of the posts on this forum and I think it is wonderful that we have the opportunity to learn from one another's experiences. A forum is an exchange of ideas. Some of them work for us, some cause us to think. Like LaGazelle, I could not be with a using or predatory man and encouraged my husband to seek professional help and to seek spiritual guidance. A person's intent, state of mind, and the state of their heart is important when understanding them.I agree; I think we all come to this planet to learn and improve. It takes a very compassionate person to try to help them understand their own issues when those very issues hurt you. This whole thread and the sisterhood thread have been filled with words of wisdom and compassion.
LaGazelle Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 He was ashamed to have gotten involved with someone "like her"? Like it would have been less ugly if hed been with someone more befitting a catch like him? And you really believed those tired old lines? Well. That is interesting. Well I guess you are a match as you were ashamed for her and he was ashamed for his choice. Interesting how different people see the world. Yes, he was ashamed...and rightly so. And that is also an important part of the recovery process. In his words, he was ashamed of what he had done to hurt me, and yes he was ashamed to have been with someone who thought herself so unworthy and behaved the way she did. And he eventually made it all the way to being ashamed that he had hurt her, even if she presented herself as though she was in the driving seat and was happy to be used. A woman should be a prize worth winning, not one who is willing, for whatever reason, to invite, expect and accept whatever little gets thrown her way. Even her "friend" was ashamed for her, and apologised to me on her behalf while telling me that my fiance loves me and the dalliance was totally meaningless. I did not just believe "tired old lines". I took both the facts and the fiction, weighed them up and made a choice for the way I wanted things to move forward. Just like the OW did - even if she made a choice I would not make. Had I not seen her emails and chat scripts, and just heard my fiance's explanation, I would not have believed it happened the way it did! And yes, your hint about his ego is reasonable...at least as it was then. That's essentially what got him in that mess. I guess when there are enough women telling you that you are handsome and successful enough that they will jump at whatever scraps you want to throw their way, then one can choose to lap it all up, be big-headed and live out a "virgins" vs. wh%*res" fantasy. As part of our recovery, it was important to me that he regain the fundamental humility that I valued in him. To me that meant a number of things including respecting women generally, even those who behave in a way that seems to intimate they don't deserve respect.
silktricks Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 I don't see how you could just forget someone and move on, IF you cared for someone at all. You can (I have) forgotten woman and just moved on but I never really felt anything for them nor did I tell them I did. Maybe there in lies the question, did the other person really care that much about you in the first place. Once the affair is over does it really matter anymore if they did? And that is possibly more of the crux of the matter - though even that I don't think is all of it. Time, of course, allows one to move on in their life, as does reflection. For example, I deeply cared for my first husband when I was married to him, but time, distance and perspective have certainly changed those feelings. When in the thick of the affair or marriage (or even freshly out of it) feelings run deep. But with distance comes changes. Looking back on an old lover can point out their kindnesses, but also their cruelties. If you are in love with someone, but come to realize that you are not the center of their universe, that they don't care for you the way you care for them - that they have in essence used you - that perspective will generally help stop the feelings of loss. And those feelings I've just described can happen just as well for the BS or the WS as the OW, as no label can define who is the user nor who has been cruel.
LaGazelle Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Just to clarify the bottom portion of La Gazelle's last post was something wildsoul said. We did post similar ideas but it appears the bottom post was mine and it wasn't. La Gazelle's post was one, I believe, that came from a place of empathy for one particular woman who by emails and other evidence desperately initiated and eventually begin a sexual R with the fiance of La Gazelle. La Gazelle could have used strong language such as 'this sleaze threw herself at my boyfriend' and tossed her aside like even her own friends did but instead decided to try to understand where the woman was coming from. Further, she could have swept it under the rug and hoped that it would never happen again. But she didn't want it to happen again so she studied it, forced her fiance-now-husband to study it, and worked through all the reasons the whole thing happened in order to prevent it from happening again. I believe she did this not only to understand how in the world this could happen to her but WHY in the world would her STBH stoop to such an act ESPECIALLY with someone who clearly lied to herself about her own motives. Not too many women will go to such lengths to begin a sexual R with a man who is better than themselves with promises of only wanting sex like the woman who approached La Gazelle's fiance. Merely claiming that the man is better than her signifies she wants to better herself in some way by association. It turns out she really just wanted to be loved (and this is usually the most honest yet hidden motive) but a lot of men will take what she said for face value (because most men communicate in this fashion) and not try to read the underlying motives. Most men don't understand that when women have sex they are making a commitment to their sex partner. Most men do not need a commitment of any kind in order to have sex. If she is offering sex only, he is going to take it! Of course I am speaking in generalities and what is usual. If La Gazelle's STBH really was a 'better' person than the A partner La Gazelle wanted him to prove it. She wanted for him to own up to his part in the R; that he took advantage of a woman who, knowing that women are emotional creatures, didn't walk the walk she was talking. They both knew she was lying about her motives when she hit him up for an affair and he went for it because it was free and easy sex. I for one am glad that La Gazelle encouraged her H to see where he went wrong. Otherwise, how could she begin a life with a man who didn't or wouldn't learn from this bad choice? She couldn't accept him as someone who would use a woman because eventually that would come back on her. So, kudos for LG! Oh my goodness. Thank you! At least some here understand what I was trying to explain. I tried to explain it as clearly as I could, but... And sorry if the link to wildsoul's comment appeared to be yours. I don't really know how to link to other forums. Anyhow, thanks so much for appreciating my perspective, and defending it. Bless you.
Heather1 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 she kept wavering between "I am easy and don't need a commitment like other women" mode to "I just want to be loved"! I don't know how to do the quotes. We all just want to be loved, that doesn't sound like a woman who wants to be used. Is your H still in contact w/ this woman? That is the mantra OW have to tell themselves because the MM will cut ties if forced to choose. For all of your sakes, I hope she's out of your life right now. It's kind of cruel to keep contact just so your H can make her out to be a fool & have her friends know it too. Give her a chance to let go.
LaGazelle Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 she kept wavering between "I am easy and don't need a commitment like other women" mode to "I just want to be loved"! I don't know how to do the quotes. We all just want to be loved, that doesn't sound like a woman who wants to be used. Is your H still in contact w/ this woman? That is the mantra OW have to tell themselves because the MM will cut ties if forced to choose. For all of your sakes, I hope she's out of your life right now. It's kind of cruel to keep contact just so your H can make her out to be a fool & have her friends know it too. Give her a chance to let go. Heather, no no, they are not in touch, it took a while and the intervention of others to stop her contact, but it stopped eventually and I hope she is better. I actually didn't find out about it until some time after everything had happened and he had sent her a message saying he was committed to me and didn't want to stay in contact with her. She only started making it clearer that she really was seeking and wanted to offer more than just sex. Of course, as a woman reading her emails, I could tell from the start that she wanted a lot more (and rightly so), but these 3 men, including my fiance seemed not to understand that from the get go. I discussed the general principle with some other guys I know - intelligent and seemingly reasonable men, who I noticed were surrounded by women who exhibit similar behaviours to her, and was just amazed at the seemingly unanimous view amongst them that there are plenty of women who just want scraps! Unbelievable.
White Flower Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Oh my goodness. Thank you! At least some here understand what I was trying to explain. I tried to explain it as clearly as I could, but... And sorry if the link to wildsoul's comment appeared to be yours. I don't really know how to link to other forums. Anyhow, thanks so much for appreciating my perspective, and defending it. Bless you. I'm pretty gifted at mirroring and so I hope I interpreted your story correctly. And to your response to Heather1, I think a lot of men, intelligent or otherwise, believe that women are willing to 'accept scraps' is because they themselves have no problem having sex without commitment. They pretend not to know that women usually make a commitment upon having sex with someone because it suits their needs-sex without commitment. Not all men are like this, but it is a general trait defined in thousands of books on the subject.
wildsoul Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 In the same breath that you say the above, you also say the following (quoted below - extract from your contribution to the Sisterhood subforum). Surely you believe female competition of the sort I described (even if you put your own spin on what I said!) exists, if you hate how it feels. How can one possibly hate something that doesn't exist!!!!!!? I never said it doesn't exist. Just trying to point out that it's not ALL women, not even close to being a majority, and that I think your worldview is a painful reality to hold. I don't appreciate the mocking laughing your a** off emoticon. But I'm not surprised by it either. You're into being competitive with women. You're doing it with me right now. Previously, I thought it was your wounds that made you think the way you do about women. But now I see that it's projection. That's the way you are. No point in dialoguing with you further. I'm out.
Heather1 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Are his friends married too? This almost sounds like a bar scene. Yeah, if guys hang out in bars without their SO, they're going to get hit on...but not if they're not giving out a signal. Listen, you're the BS & you are entitled to every single feeling you have about this - HANDS DOWN! I'm also really sorry it happened, I really am. Matters of the heart are the hardest. I question the "victim" words of his friends. Not all of us OW are throwing themselves @ OM. I was heavily pursued for over a year & was side-swiped by a few close friends deaths & LOTS of stuff going on at home w/ no help. It was a breaking point. What I forgot, after being w/ the same man for 20 years, is that men love a conquest. Nothing's been the same since, OM abruptly changed. The good news for you is that men can have sex w/ no feelings.
LaGazelle Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 I never said it doesn't exist. Just trying to point out that it's not ALL women, not even close to being a majority, and that I think your worldview is a painful reality to hold. I don't appreciate the mocking laughing your a** off emoticon. But I'm not surprised by it either. You're into being competitive with women. You're doing it with me right now. Previously, I thought it was your wounds that made you think the way you do about women. But now I see that it's projection. That's the way you are. No point in dialoguing with you further. I'm out. Wildsoul, I am not going to get into this petty squabbling. At no point did I ever say all women are like that. My point from the beginning was that too many buy into the philosophy - whether they realise it or not. In the same way you don't appreciate the emoticon, I don't appreciate you twisting my words. If I wanted to say all, I would have said all. Anyway, I am happy to discontinue the "dialogue" with you too. You can twist and spin what I've said as much as you wish. It feels like a pointless competition.
Heather1 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 It seems the problem here is you walked into a minefield/graveyard of broken hearts. While we're here squabbling, the OM is probably txt'ing someone new. So who's winning here? The OM w/ no empathy wins.
Lizzie60 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Getting into an affair is like gambling.. you never know when it will end or if you're going to be lucky... So you need to move on.. be happy for him..
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