Gamine Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 I am going back to your post ... and I often wonder the same thing. Yes - we were and some of us still are the OW. When the affair ends - and the MM walks away - does he just walk back in and everything is perfect, he is happy, and all is well?? Especially when his BS did not now?? I can tell you from experience, that when I ended it - I did not go back to feeling anywhere close to that in my life. It's hard. The OW is often held responsible as the persuer of the relationship and villified (thrown under the best) byt the MM to the BS, and the BS buys it.... OK, in my situation I took it, realized it was thing anyway, and walked away. It does hurt SO MUCH to think that he just goes back to 'normalcy'. And I think we as OW have the right to feel that too - as much as the BS has a right. NO - we were not married - but we did exchange a lot. I have to think the MM must address what is wrong (or what WAS wrong) in their marriage that they began the affair in the first place, or they will find themselves right back where they were. I mean - a lot of MM can say 'well she seduced me, etc.' - but I don't think so. In my case - he knew, he came after me too. So hopefully - he is addressing and talking to his wife, and not - I can't imagine everything to be perfect for them or happy. They have a a hard road to travel, but I think I know what you were asking in this story. Feelings simply are. It is not a matter of having a right to them. We feel them whether we have sound reasoning to feel them or not. When entering into a relationship, one does so with a certain assessment of risk. For a wife, the risk may be perceived as minimal since the man has made a commitment to love, honor, respect and forsake all others 'til death do you part. Hence, a wife enters into a marriage relationship with a promise... a commitment of fidelity. As an OW, one is involved with a man who is bound legally, and perhaps emotionally to a woman to whom his has already made a promise of fidelity. OW necessarily enter into unknown territory when becoming involved with a MM and rarely do they receive a promise of fidelity. So, necessarily, the risk that the MM is having a life with his wife is a tremendous one... regardless of whether they are walking on cloud nine or not. Some men return home and their wife never knows. Some men 'confess' to their spouse because of the guilt. Some men are serial cheaters. Some men love their wives others don't. One post stated that a man cannot cheat on a woman he loves. Conversely, a man cannot love the woman he is cheating with if he doesn't commit to her. We make life choices according to what we want or desire. Love may be the only factor and in other cases it may be more complex than that. However, there are divorces occurring all of the time when children and property are involved in cases where there isn't infidelity. If marriages end all of the time without an OP then they can end if the MM loves the OP. If it is his choice not to, one may deduce from that whatever one wishes. However, the MM has set a priority of importance of one as it relates to the other.
Snowflower Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 pkn...you are one of the few MM/OM who post here regularly. I am glad to see you haven't been run off by some of the more "opinionated" posters here. I think your input is valuable.
LaGazelle Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 I couldn't disagree with that statement more than I do. Dunno where you got socialized, but it sounds like someone painted a very painful reality for you, one where all women compete and try to hurt you. Surely this has played a part in how you experienced the betrayal of your husband. Sorry you had to go through that pain, but it seems like you're still projecting it here in this thread. Not all women want to take "your" happiness. Not even the OW's. No one can take your husband, although he can stray. No one can take your happiness, although their actions might cause you pain. But they can try! This is exactly my point! I did not let a desperate cruel woman take my happiness even though she made every effort to! You are entitled to your opinion, but it has been proven over and over again how women are taught the mantra of the alpha female. I do not believe that all women want to take my husband. In fact I used to believe that all OW had to be seduced and lied to in order to engage in such affairs. In spite of what your experience has been, mine has been one where I read emails from a desperate woman with little or no self respect, chase my husband (then fiance), belittle herself in the process and lose many friendships and good things in her life as a result. She also bitched about other women (her own friends) who had good relationships, or were being pursued. In any case, had my husband given me the version of the story which I read (from her emails and chat scripts) with my own eyes, I would not have believed him. I never believed there were women like that, I chose to believe in the sisterhood - in the inherent goodness of women, in spite of experiencing unrelenting jealousy from other women. Yes, I am often envied by other women, but it has never ever stopped me, nor has it ever changed my life for the worse. I feel no pain from it - it has brought me a lot of success. I thank God for my beauty (inside and outside), but I owe a lot of my success, drive and my strength to those women. Thanks for pointing out that my husband betrayed me. No kidding Sherlock! I guess you want me to go lick my wounds...sorry to disappoint you, but they have been healed! I hope no one ever betrays you or cause you the pain that I initially felt, and which so many women (and men) experience through no doing of their own. I was actually trying to help. If I projected pain, it is not just my pain, but the pain I feel for the OW who get themselves in this situation. One of the things I discussed with my husband about the OW, was how he could totally disregard her in spite of her obvious desperation, and how he could use her and discard her then cling to me. His answer, was that her words and actions made it clear that she wanted to be used and he initally believed her, took advantage but then realised that it was wrong to do so. I was actually angry at him not just for his betrayal but also for her, because I am sure that even though she used that approach in her begging and pleading, she clearly wanted more - just like any other woman should. I was ashamed for her as a woman. Every woman deserves to be no. 1!
wildsoul Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 I don't see how you could just forget someone and move on, IF you cared for someone at all. Although I understand your sentiment, share in it to a point, let me remind you that sometimes NC is a sign that you really love someone. So much so that you can't have a half-life with them. In the case of a MM/W going back to their spouse, NC is the right thing to do for everyone. It's painful, but is the only way to end the triad. And while I don't agree with everything Gamine wrote (a good deal, just not all) I do agree about accepting the bottom-line: If someone you had an affair with goes back to their spouse, and you're not interested in being in an affair, then it doesn't really matter why. Sure, we love analyzing these things, especially as we're trying to sort out what their leaving means about us. But at the end of the day, what really matters is that we accept their choice and move on make a better choice for ourselves. Wiseup: How are you feeling now? Still obsessing about them, or is that starting to fade yet?
wildsoul Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 I hope no one ever betrays you or cause you the pain that I initially felt, and which so many women (and men) experience through no doing of their own. I don't want to threadjack too much, but want to say a couple things. I'm not trying to negate your experience or make excuses for the OW in your life. I don't even know your story, let alone hers. It's too late to hope that I won't experience what you did, because I have. I've been cheated on before, and at least one of the women made an overt plan that involved trying to intentionally hurt me for sport. Make that 2 women, as I just remembered another. Sure there are some evil people out there, but don't let your experience make you completely distrustful. More pain seems to get caused in affairs because of feelings of love, than deliberate malice. Your original worldview, before the betrayal seems the better one.
Mino Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 But they can try! This is exactly my point! I did not let a desperate cruel woman take my happiness even though she made every effort to! You are entitled to your opinion, but it has been proven over and over again how women are taught the mantra of the alpha female. I do not believe that all women want to take my husband. In fact I used to believe that all OW had to be seduced and lied to in order to engage in such affairs. In spite of what your experience has been, mine has been one where I read emails from a desperate woman with little or no self respect, chase my husband (then fiance), belittle herself in the process and lose many friendships and good things in her life as a result. She also bitched about other women (her own friends) who had good relationships, or were being pursued. In any case, had my husband given me the version of the story which I read (from her emails and chat scripts) with my own eyes, I would not have believed him. I never believed there were women like that, I chose to believe in the sisterhood - in the inherent goodness of women, in spite of experiencing unrelenting jealousy from other women. Yes, I am often envied by other women, but it has never ever stopped me, nor has it ever changed my life for the worse. I feel no pain from it - it has brought me a lot of success. I thank God for my beauty (inside and outside), but I owe a lot of my success, drive and my strength to those women. Thanks for pointing out that my husband betrayed me. No kidding Sherlock! I guess you want me to go lick my wounds...sorry to disappoint you, but they have been healed! I hope no one ever betrays you or cause you the pain that I initially felt, and which so many women (and men) experience through no doing of their own. I was actually trying to help. If I projected pain, it is not just my pain, but the pain I feel for the OW who get themselves in this situation. One of the things I discussed with my husband about the OW, was how he could totally disregard her in spite of her obvious desperation, and how he could use her and discard her then cling to me. His answer, was that her words and actions made it clear that she wanted to be used and he initally believed her, took advantage but then realised that it was wrong to do so. I was actually angry at him not just for his betrayal but also for her, because I am sure that even though she used that approach in her begging and pleading, she clearly wanted more - just like any other woman should. I was ashamed for her as a woman. Every woman deserves to be no. 1!Did I read that right, "SHE WANTED TO BE USED:? Sweetie, I hate to tell you but NOBODY wants to be used, no o/w no o/m not Bs !! I have a feeling your husband really snowed you into believibg his lies... Sure you may have read a few desperate emails, could have been towards the end, but I am sure you didnt GET the whole picture... Unbelievable... wanted to be used... Thats sick, IMHO
jj33 Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 Obviously Gazelle and her husband see the whole thing differently. Gazells it seems that from your point of view, if a woman puts herself in the position of being the OW, then she is somehow less than in many ways. You seem extremely pleased with yourself. So why are you posting here? To gracously and elegantly show us all how wonderful you are and how sad it is for the poor OWs who lack your grace beauty and other God given gifts?
Mino Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 Obviously Gazelle and her husband see the whole thing differently. Gazells it seems that from your point of view, if a woman puts herself in the position of being the OW, then she is somehow less than in many ways. You seem extremely pleased with yourself. So why are you posting here? To gracously and elegantly show us all how wonderful you are and how sad it is for the poor OWs who lack your grace beauty and other God given gifts? Jj, she didnt get the whole picture, her husband figures if he makes ow look like crap, he will look indirectly like some kind of hero to his w.
jj33 Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 Ah typical busted MM covering his tracks and resorting to flattery. I got it now. Thanks Mino.
NoIDidn't Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Obviously Gazelle and her husband see the whole thing differently. Gazells it seems that from your point of view, if a woman puts herself in the position of being the OW, then she is somehow less than in many ways. You seem extremely pleased with yourself. So why are you posting here? To gracously and elegantly show us all how wonderful you are and how sad it is for the poor OWs who lack your grace beauty and other God given gifts? I hope Gazelle doesn't stop posting just because you disagreed with her view. I happen to agree with her, though. A woman does put herself in the position of being the OW - for whatever reasons. It could be low self-esteem or overinflated self-esteem. It could be loneliness or adventurousness. Why the defense of the OW always has to devalue the other posters opinion really baffles me? This "less than" filter really gets annoying and only serves to make people afraid to post honestly. Is that what we want? For people to only post what "we" want to hear? That would be a waste.
jj33 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Why should Gazelle stop posting because I disagreed with her? I am just another voice in cyberspace? Why did I say what I did. Because IMO the post was condescending.
jj33 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 And to La Gazelle and Gamine - the fact that a person stays does NOT mean its because they love their spouse. They stay for finances, for lots and lots of reasons. We may have to agree to disagree but I stand by my belief that PKN is far from alone in staying for reasons other than his spouse. There are a lot of people out there who stay in marriages because they feel stuck. Whether they really are stuck is another story. And for 2 women who talk about sisterhood - why do you insist in making this a competition? The reason it seems to me is that it validates your view of your marriages. We all speak from our own experience. I think we will have to agree to disagree.
NoIDidn't Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 And to La Gazelle and Gamine - the fact that a person stays does NOT mean its because they love their spouse. They stay for finances, for lots and lots of reasons. We may have to agree to disagree but I stand by my belief that PKN is far from alone in staying for reasons other than his spouse. There are a lot of people out there who stay in marriages because they feel stuck. Whether they really are stuck is another story. And for 2 women who talk about sisterhood - why do you insist in making this a competition? The reason it seems to me is that it validates your view of your marriages. We all speak from our own experience. I think we will have to agree to disagree. Agreed. LOL. ;)
Mino Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 I hope Gazelle doesn't stop posting just because you disagreed with her view. I happen to agree with her, though. A woman does put herself in the position of being the OW - for whatever reasons. It could be low self-esteem or overinflated self-esteem. It could be loneliness or adventurousness. Why the defense of the OW always has to devalue the other posters opinion really baffles me? This "less than" filter really gets annoying and only serves to make people afraid to post honestly. Is that what we want? For people to only post what "we" want to hear? That would be a waste. Hi NoIdidnt, I agree with that the ow put herself in that position for different reasons, but one reason I know she didnt go into the A was to be "used". Thats just plain crap, makes about as much sense as a spouse getting married to get the sh*t kicked out of her everyday because she wanted SP abuse,
NoIDidn't Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 Hi NoIdidnt, I agree with that the ow put herself in that position for different reasons, but one reason I know she didnt go into the A was to be "used". Thats just plain crap, makes about as much sense as a spouse getting married to get the sh*t kicked out of her everyday because she wanted SP abuse, We agree. I don't think anyone goes into any relationship with the expectation that they are going to be used. The question I have for anyone that has this view, though, is what does it say about the User? Did the User go into it expecting to Use the person? So somehow we wonder how a person can submit to being used, but we forget that someone else is accepting the position of User. I know, I know. But as a BS, I'm not supposed to say this (in the minds of some). So I'll say THIS instead: it takes TWO to tango. The getaway car was waiting for someone to jump into it.
Gamine Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 And to La Gazelle and Gamine - the fact that a person stays does NOT mean its because they love their spouse. They stay for finances, for lots and lots of reasons. We may have to agree to disagree but I stand by my belief that PKN is far from alone in staying for reasons other than his spouse. There are a lot of people out there who stay in marriages because they feel stuck. Whether they really are stuck is another story. And for 2 women who talk about sisterhood - why do you insist in making this a competition? The reason it seems to me is that it validates your view of your marriages. We all speak from our own experience. I think we will have to agree to disagree. JJ, There is no competition here only an exchange of life experiences amongst us with no judgments. A forum can be a place where we hear differing and/or similar points of view... sort through them... and learn. That is why I am here. I suppose in today's day and age the concept that a MM is 'stuck' in a marriage seems bizarre to me. Especially here in the USA where there is little to no social stigma attached to divorce. Being 'stuck' seems to imply a lack of free will associated with determining one's own life. As if the MM is a victim of circumstances, rather than by his own volition. Divorce happens all of the time every day. Readily. Prisoners of their own life it seems....
Heather1 Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 WOW...so this is what the MM says to his W. Interesting. I just don't understand why he would put his M on the line for someone who just wanted to be used....and that he would go ahead & just use her!! This is kind of HS cheerleader stuff. I don't mean that to be insulting or anything, not at all. I would venture to say, based on my experience, that the A starts when both people are extremely vulnerable. Even the strongest of us, and the most secure, find ourselves in a crisis we're not handling right & the window opens. I'm glad the OM & I haven't said anything bad about our BS's to each other. I told my H too, and we've figured worked together to form an opinion that the OM is in complete crisis. My H doesn't hate him at all, he gets the big picture of this & that we need to look forward to a future together again. Both OM & I are working on our marriages & I wish him the best.
Mino Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 We agree. I don't think anyone goes into any relationship with the expectation that they are going to be used. The question I have for anyone that has this view, though, is what does it say about the User? Did the User go into it expecting to Use the person? So somehow we wonder how a person can submit to being used, but we forget that someone else is accepting the position of User. I know, I know. But as a BS, I'm not supposed to say this (in the minds of some). So I'll say THIS instead: it takes TWO to tango. The getaway car was waiting for someone to jump into it.:love::love: Thank you for your fairness, I love the fact that YOU can see both sides, I do appriciate that about you!
Mino Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 JJ, There is no competition here only an exchange of life experiences amongst us with no judgments. A forum can be a place where we hear differing and/or similar points of view... sort through them... and learn. That is why I am here. I suppose in today's day and age the concept that a MM is 'stuck' in a marriage seems bizarre to me. Especially here in the USA where there is little to no social stigma attached to divorce. Being 'stuck' seems to imply a lack of free will associated with determining one's own life. As if the MM is a victim of circumstances, rather than by his own volition. Divorce happens all of the time every day. Readily. Prisoners of their own life it seems.... I hate to say this but being "stuck' even though we may be in the US can mean different things. Being stuck may mean giving up what they may "want to do, which means leaving marriage to being "stuck, because of guilt for their children, family, friends, BS..Basically their belief systemand their value system that was embedded in them keeps them Stuck. Living your life for other, not for yourself... keeping everybody happy, but not giving yourself happiness. So that is one form of being stuck, Financially can also be a reason of being :stuck:, not being able to pay for two HH if the bs is a sahm. So ya know, it is NEVER as cut and dry as you may think.
Mino Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 WOW...so this is what the MM says to his W. Interesting. I just don't understand why he would put his M on the line for someone who just wanted to be used....and that he would go ahead & just use her!! This is kind of HS cheerleader stuff. I don't mean that to be insulting or anything, not at all. I would venture to say, based on my experience, that the A starts when both people are extremely vulnerable. Even the strongest of us, and the most secure, find ourselves in a crisis we're not handling right & the window opens. I'm glad the OM & I haven't said anything bad about our BS's to each other. I told my H too, and we've figured worked together to form an opinion that the OM is in complete crisis. My H doesn't hate him at all, he gets the big picture of this & that we need to look forward to a future together again. Both OM & I are working on our marriages & I wish him the best. Now that is a healthy attitude... Seems like you and your husband are well into a great recovery... I wish you both the best!
White Flower Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 But in reality everyone touched by cheating has it bad. And for a long, long time.So true, and it is so nice to know that some BS are aware of this.
White Flower Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 I was actually trying to help. If I projected pain, it is not just my pain, but the pain I feel for the OW who get themselves in this situation. One of the things I discussed with my husband about the OW, was how he could totally disregard her in spite of her obvious desperation, and how he could use her and discard her then cling to me. His answer, was that her words and actions made it clear that she wanted to be used and he initally believed her, took advantage but then realised that it was wrong to do so. I was actually angry at him not just for his betrayal but also for her, because I am sure that even though she used that approach in her begging and pleading, she clearly wanted more - just like any other woman should. I was ashamed for her as a woman. Every woman deserves to be no. 1! Wow LaGazelle, It is so refreshing to know that a BS could be so thoughtful and introspective about women on both sides of the MM. I wouldn't have used the word 'ashamed' for the other women but I did feel sorry for her. I never hated her and when I went to confront her I found myself sitting and having a nice chat with her instead. I realized in that moment that she was a real woman with a real heart who bonded with my H because he allowed her to. I decided to let fate take place. I'm D'd now and he is on to someone new. The OW still pines for him. And I still feel sorry for her.
White Flower Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 I hope Gazelle doesn't stop posting just because you disagreed with her view. I happen to agree with her, though. A woman does put herself in the position of being the OW - for whatever reasons. It could be low self-esteem or overinflated self-esteem. It could be loneliness or adventurousness. Why the defense of the OW always has to devalue the other posters opinion really baffles me? This "less than" filter really gets annoying and only serves to make people afraid to post honestly. Is that what we want? For people to only post what "we" want to hear? That would be a waste. I think people want posters to at least drop ignorance and try to see all sides before posting. Having said that, I think some OWs get offended when they're told they're delusional (and sometimes they are), or have low self-esteem (again, sometimes they do), or have something wrong with themselves. I don't relate to a lot of those issues; I was in an affair because it suited me at the time and I made darn sure the W never found out because it was never my goal to break a M apart. And sometimes they are not devalueing (sp?) another poster. Sometimes they are pointing out the misnomers and misconceptions especially relating to their own sitch's. It may come across as 'devalueing' but oftentimes is not.
NoIDidn't Posted May 19, 2009 Posted May 19, 2009 So true, and it is so nice to know that some BS are aware of this. I really hate it when the whole BS vs. OP label is thrown into just plain old common sense. I don't think one has to always be one or the other to know that everyone hurts in this. It often IS difficult for the never married and childless to understand those in the opposite positions. But with infidelity? No, everyone hurts. Some feel that the OPs bring it on themselves, and some (like me) say what does it matter, everyone's hurting. In my sitch, everyone was hurting. Including a little boy that I had never met whose father moved out because his mother was messing with another man. Everyone was hurting. Infidelity sucks.
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