Enema Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 The fed ex dude just busted me watching porn. really.. it is true. Glad I had my pants on. Gold... was he nervous about giving you the pen to sign?
sally4sara Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Strippers are well paid, in comparison to other manual labour jobs like being a waitress. Both earn tips to supplement, if they choose to put out "good service". Why is a stripper exploited and a waitress not? Sometime, the server is treated horribly. That job isn't a gender specific job and for that reason, isn't generally a sexually charged one. Because men can be servers too, restaurants don't tolerate sexual misconduct by patrons toward the staff. The female servers do have to deal with some men having an attitude of familiarity towards them without knowing them at all, but, having worked both jobs I can assure you the attitudes are not comparable. Woggle did not describe a rare event. I didn't work in a specific club. I worked for an agency and sometimes I and other girls would be part of an event the club would advertise. We were generally treated well by the owners and staff. They made sure the patrons minded their manners and bounced them out when they didn't. I did notice they never did this for the regular dancers that worked only for the clubs. Not unless one of us pointed it out. The general attitude by the owners and bounce staff is that you have to put up with the "small stuff or get out of the business"; don't make waves "if you are not in physical jeopardy or you put everyone in danger". These are things I actually heard people say to girls who wanted some one tossed for being handsy. Some of these places practically force these girls to get sloppy drunk when they work. The bartender could easily just not put alcohol in the drinks the patrons buy the girls, but quite a few wouldn't because "it would be fraudulent; they bought alcohol so we serve alcohol".
Trialbyfire Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 What about barmaids, who get fondled regularly by drunk patrons? Are they being exploited? If strippers are being exploited so are waitresses and barmaids. Sexual harassment and abuse isn't limited to strippers. Sexually charged atmosphere's don't equate to exploitation when the strippers or anyone in the skin industry, makes the personal choice to do this. No one forces strippers to be strippers, unless they're part of the slave trade. It's difficult for me to have any sympathy for unhealthy personal choices and if it's not viewed as unhealthy, where's the exploitation when you get paid good coin to do a job?
LucreziaBorgia Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 I have a hard time seeing someone with a job like that as being exploited. They knew what it was, they signed up for it, and they get paid for it. Now, the girls who are kidnapped and shipped to other countries to be forced into prostitution and/or drug mules are exploited.
Author Woggle Posted May 7, 2009 Author Posted May 7, 2009 I look at strippers as performers and if I went to a concert and just started throwing crap at the artist I would be thrown out. Why shouldn't the same standard apply in this case?
sally4sara Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 What about barmaids, who get fondled regularly by drunk patrons? Are they being exploited? If strippers are being exploited so are waitresses and barmaids. Sexual harassment and abuse isn't limited to strippers. Sexually charged atmosphere's don't equate to exploitation when the strippers or anyone in the skin industry, makes the personal choice to do this. No one forces strippers to be strippers, unless they're part of the slave trade. It's difficult for me to have any sympathy for unhealthy personal choices and if it's not viewed as unhealthy, where's the exploitation when you get paid good coin to do a job? No one has to feel sorry for them; no one was asking anyone to serve up some pity unless I missed that post? It isn't always picnics by the lake and noodle salad for everyone. Unhealthy choices get made by everyone. Especially by unhealthy people who were once unhealthy children. The girls who work this job are very young. I was freshly 19 when I started. A girl I knew from high school met up with me and invited me to a party at her new condo. She danced. I saw the money she pulled; it appealed to me for that reason only. Not to mention that for me........pardon me but it was a step up as I stole and dealt for my dinner and roof less than 6 month before catching up with her. At least I couldn't go to jail for it. I didn't have a drug problem or kids to keep maintained. Plus I was lucky enough to not end up in strip club. When I wanted to put my heel on every guy's neck - I quit. We get older and wiser. We learn new tricks until one day we're just as normal as everyone else. So no sympathy required, thanks. Its still exploitation.
burning 4 revenge Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Its mutual exploitation Exlpoitation simply means to exploit The men are generally exploited because they are lonely and weak and they get drawn in by the allure of the sexually charged atmosphere The women are exploited because they get used to the easy money and often get addicted to drugs and alcohol while they work these places. Most to the women who work in those places didn't orginally intend to get stuck in that situation for years
sally4sara Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 I have a hard time seeing someone with a job like that as being exploited. They knew what it was, they signed up for it, and they get paid for it. Now, the girls who are kidnapped and shipped to other countries to be forced into prostitution and/or drug mules are exploited. This was my belief. But I watched so many of the girls I worked with who came from or ended up at strip clubs get a line ran on them. They were told that the bouncers were there to toss any one who makes them uncomfortable. That they didn't have to drink if they didn't want to. Where I worked, you'd get fired for being lushed up or high on the job so if the girl worked with me prior, they believed it. A month later, it was all about how they were acting like a priss and needed to get a new attitude or not come back. By then they were not making enough to save, but just enough to live without a room mate and pay their bills. So they drank, started needing to drink. Started putting up with handsy jerks. I went to pick up this chic, Jodi, to take her to the airport at the end of her shift. I worked with her sister. From the back, I watched her dancing drunk; not even protesting about three idiots who were wadding up wet cocktail napkins and flinging them at her. What was the point? The staff could easily see it. They didn't feel sorry for her either. She was getting paid after all.
Jersey Shortie Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 What about barmaids, who get fondled regularly by drunk patrons? Are they being exploited? When that person who fondles them behaves that way, yes. That person is exploiting them. That is how we define exploitation. Sexual harassment and abuse isn't limited to strippers. It certainly isn't. Is that your foundation for an argument then? Because sexual harassment can exist in any situation it's okay? Sexually charged atmosphere's don't equate to exploitation when the strippers or anyone in the skin industry, makes the personal choice to do this. No one forces strippers to be strippers, unless they're part of the slave trade. I've made this argument several times and you ignored it the last time I made it on this thread. Not one person here argued that these people are being forced into a job. Agreement to said job does not negate exploitation. I think you know this to be true. We ALL know that these women are being exploited. No man would want his daughter in a porn film. Because even if she agreed to be in one, she would STILL be exploited. I am not saying these women make the best choices but why not talk about the men that view these women and their part in it? All you seem to want to reference is the woman's agreement to be a stripper or pornstar. Seperate from that, the men with women in their lives that decide to partake in video, media or real life activities envolving overt sexual stimulation are exploiting those women for their own benefit. Men with daughters, sisters, mothers and wives and girlfriends. How is what the stipper/porn star decides to do dependent on what men should or shouldn't take advantage of? Can you possibly answer that? I will say it again. Agreement does not negate exploitation. How many women in great life situaitons with alot of options do you think actually enter the porn industry or become strippers? It's difficult for me to have any sympathy for unhealthy personal choices and if it's not viewed as unhealthy, where's the exploitation when you get paid good coin to do a job? I am sympathy for people that make unhealthy personal choices. Why? Because we all make unhealthy personal choices at some point because we are human. People usually make personal unhealthy life choices not because they are bad people or mean or evil, in most cases it's because they are a person struggling with life. If you truly don't believe it's exploitation, and people agree with you, ask yourself and ask those people if they would want someone they deeply cared about in that type of situation and you have your *real* answer to the question.
Enema Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 If you truly don't believe it's exploitation, and people agree with you, ask yourself and ask those people if they would want someone they deeply cared about in that type of situation and you have your *real* answer to the question. I don't think it's exploitation. I wouldn't want someone I deeply cared about to work as a stripper, a receptionist, in the army, or as a garbageman. Is it because people in those professions are being exploited? No.
Trialbyfire Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Pay to play, if you want premium wages for a job that requires no talent or prerequisites. It sometimes doesn't even require being terribly attractive, reliant on the establishment. That's why I don't consider it exploitation. Women AND men, are getting paid skilled labour wages for no talent and no abilities. I state this for the entire skin industry. The entire industry isn't so much exploitive but seedy as hell. As for your point JS, I didn't address it because I don't agree with your sexist logic. If the skin industry is the exploitation of women, it surely is an exploitation of men. I'm sure porn stars are crying into their bottles of Moet et Chandon. Oh, that's right, Jenna Jameson NOW has regrets.
sally4sara Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Does it say anything that Jenna J has only been doing lez porn for a while now? Even though it pays less? Even though she does not claim to be gay?
Jersey Shortie Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 I don't think it's exploitation. I wouldn't want someone I deeply cared about to work as a stripper, a receptionist, in the army, or as a garbageman. Is it because people in those professions are being exploited? No. For most men, they have a specefic reason why they wouldn't want someone they cared for to be a stripper or porn star over not wanting someone to be a receptionist. That's why I don't consider it exploitation. Women AND men, are getting paid skilled labour wages for no talent and no abilities. I state this for the entire skin industry. The entire industry isn't so much exploitive but seedy as hell. It's seedy as hell because it *is* exploitive. That is the essense of the industry. As for your point JS, I didn't address it because I don't agree with your sexist logic. If the skin industry is the exploitation of women, it surely is an exploitation of men. I'm sure porn stars are crying into their bottles of Moet et Chandon. Oh, that's right, Jenna Jameson NOW has regrets. Oh Bull Honky Trial. You not addressing my point had nothing to do with what you preceive my sexism to be. I do think men are also exploited. The fact remains, more often then not, it's the female in the posistion of submission to the man. There is a different dynamic you don't want to admit to. Funny that we both think Jenna Jameson is a good example for both our view points isn't it? I mean, if you actually read an interview with her, she is an individual that went into the industry because of many issues and has had many issues while being in the industry. She also never went to the extremes that most porn actresses have to make money. The average porn actress lasts 6 months to a year. Not many make it as famously as Jenna Jameson. And she is finacially successful, no doubt. But then so is Micheal Jackson. And I don't think anyone here would want to be him or claim he doesn't have issues and regrets.
Trialbyfire Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Bloody hell, women aren't just whimpering, mewling victims. I take offense to the depiction that women aren't capable of taking care of themselves and making good decisions. We're as strong as we want to be AND we make our own choices in life. So when we make poor choices in our lives, we're just as responsible for them.
a4a Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Oh Bull Honky Trial. You not addressing my point had nothing to do with what you preceive my sexism to be. I do think men are also exploited. The fact remains, more often then not, it's the female in the posistion of submission to the man. There is a different dynamic you don't want to admit to. did you read my ladies only porn thread....... seems like many women like to be dominated by men. They enjoy watching porn with that being part of it. Some even do have a rape fantasy. Not the men - these are women with this fantasy. It is a pretty common fantasy among females. googilate it. and what about strippers that strip for lesbians? Are they being exploited? I attended a lesbian bach. party at a titty bar where the wedding party got lesbian lap dances..... and I would have to say the dancers seemed to actually enjoy it! change of pace perhaps?
sally4sara Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 did you read my ladies only porn thread....... seems like many women like to be dominated by men. They enjoy watching porn with that being part of it. Some even do have a rape fantasy. Not the men - these are women with this fantasy. It is a pretty common fantasy among females. googilate it. and what about strippers that strip for lesbians? Are they being exploited? I attended a lesbian bach. party at a titty bar where the wedding party got lesbian lap dances..... and I would have to say the dancers seemed to actually enjoy it! change of pace perhaps? Yeah, thats why fantasies of being taken captive by amazons have been around since the Roman empire. Taking issue with the behavior of the patrons makes little money and gets no reaction out of the bounce staff other than eye rolling. What option does that leave them?
sally4sara Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Bloody hell, women aren't just whimpering, mewling victims. I take offense to the depiction that women aren't capable of taking care of themselves and making good decisions. We're as strong as we want to be AND we make our own choices in life. So when we make poor choices in our lives, we're just as responsible for them. No one is talking about having no responsibility for the choices made. No one said they were helpless. This does not mean you cannot see how the situation can be damaging to everyone involved. I don't know what it has to do with sympathy or why you feel like someone is asking that of you. Just like when illegal immigrants paint some jerk's entire house and get a twenty tossed at them with a threat to call INS if they don't go quietly; you don't have to feel sorry for them. It isn't anyone's fault but their own when someone takes advantage of the situation they chose to put themselves in. Does that make it okay? Does it mean they deserve it? Just consider yourself lucky to have been born into the situation you were and don't worry about feeling sorry for those who were not.
Jersey Shortie Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 Bloody hell, women aren't just whimpering, mewling victims. I take offense to the depiction that women aren't capable of taking care of themselves and making good decisions. We're as strong as we want to be AND we make our own choices in life. So when we make poor choices in our lives, we're just as responsible for them. I have to agree with Sally when she said it has nothing to do with not being responsible for personal choices. Those women choose to be in porn. We ALL understand that. What does that have to do with men in committed relationships choosing to use the women in the movies to exploit them for their (the men's) own pleasure? How does a porn actresses choice to be in porn negate how a grown man with a wife or girlfriend should act or negate the fact that he is helping to exploit those girls. Why is his choice only dependent on what a porn actress does?
a4a Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 The porn actress provides a product. The man buys it and enjoys it. Who was really exploited here? The porn actress exploited the mans need for sexual fulfillment! Poor man...... he has been exploited.
Trialbyfire Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 Let's try this one more time and then, that's it for me, 'cause round, round we go. Women choose to be in porn. Women and men consume porn. Beyond the minimal number of sex addicts, it's only womens' personal insecurities, thus the need to control what their man thinks, that ruin relationships. Women who choose to be involved in porn, do it for skilled wages, for unskilled labour. Why are these women being overpaid? Aren't women exploiting not only the dumb-arse men who do this, as well as exploiting the strip-bar owners and other porn employers? It's as if you believe that exploitation = sex. That's sad. With the below definition of exploitation, if you believe these women are being exploited, you also must believe that every person is being exploited by their respective employers. Definition of exploitation: Unfair treatment or use. The practice of taking selfish or unfair practice of a person or situation, usually for personal gain.
sally4sara Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 With the below definition of exploitation, if you believe these women are being exploited, you also must believe that every person is being exploited by their respective employers. Definition of exploitation: Unfair treatment or use. The practice of taking selfish or unfair practice of a person or situation, usually for personal gain. As a matter of fact, I DO think this. Start another thread and call me a marxist feminist if you like. Hell, just the other day I expressed a suspicion that this economic situation benefits stable corporate structures because they can claim a fiscal tightening and lay off employees, just to turn around and hire new ones for a lower wage by calling the vacant positions "entry level". Or how about my neighbor who works at a sandwich shop where she must wear a particular uniform and adhere to set grooming standards (with the sanitation reasons why stated clearly in her handbook). She does so, but tells me the shop's owner shows up everyday, dressed to the nines, hair down, uncovered and polish on her nails. She says she feels like the woman uses the staff the same way an insecure girl uses her fat friends to make her look better. I see her point. Either a hat/hairnet is necessary for sanitation.....or its not. Is it just my neighbor's "nasty" Hispanic hair versus the shop owners "good" WASP hair? Its a class war lady! I can guess which one you hail from...... Porn and Strip clubs are the same deal. I don't know what porn stars make as a standard wage, but I do know the girls in your average strip club don't make the money they claim they do. They often inflate their earnings as a response to the general attitude they face over their line of work. Making people think you get paid a ton for the job shuts them up. A club has a bartender, some form of musical entertainment (DJ or playlist), a bounce staff for the unruly drunks, and a place for the staff to keep their belonging while they work. A strip club has all the same things only they CHARGE the dancers for these things. They must tip out the bounce staff and DJ. They pay a locker fee. Some either make them tip out the bartender, have a drink purchase minimum they must get patrons to purchase for them or cover it themselves, OR BOTH. Have your opinion if it comforts you. Feel all superior about it if you like, but you don't know what you're talking about.
Trialbyfire Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 sally4sara, tell me something. Without the skin industry, what would you have done, back when, when you were stealing, etc., to live?
a4a Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 I bartended in a strip joint for a couple of weeks. As a favor to the owner. My clothing stayed on. I did it because not only was the money good but I also really wanted to experience it. It did not interfere with my reg. job. His wife was the reg. b-tender. She was out because of a medical situation. They were neighbors of mine. We knew eachother from conversation. Some of the girls working there made $500+ on a weeknight.... some make $50. The good looking ones with regulars raked it in. They did have to tip out the DJ. They were not enslaved. I kinda felt sorry for the men there. The dummies would buy them drinks (fully clothed strippers) and pay them to converse with them around the bar area. It ran in shifts..... they worked the stage - the floor - and then the bar area. It was an upscale club with memberships.
sally4sara Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 sally4sara, tell me something. Without the skin industry, what would you have done, back when, when you were stealing, etc., to live? Well, I did the rob and steal thing for a bit after I ran from home. I had fought back against my mother's physical violence a year prior and she had yet to try again but her fella was getting grabby. I moved in with some friends. Some of the group I ran with got into a sticky situation that scared me for the small part I played in it. I went a got a joe job and continued with school, but this caused the people I ran with to think I was likely to squeal on them. It was obvious that I didn't want to be further involved. I left the area for safty's concern and ran into the girl who was working in shows. At the time, I was waitressing by day and pretending to be pregnant to attend night school. It was only for pregnant teens and the only way I could continue highschool without my mother's signature. Its hard to say what would've happened, I could've never gotten out of my old neighborhood, I like learning new things and ended up in design. I could've also ended up in prison or dead. For me to help you make whatever point you're trying to make, we'd probably have to sit down for a few hours so you could see how life unfolds for someone who isn't YOU. PM me if you want contact info; I won't hijack the thread for my life story just so you can try to make a point on a subject you have no personal experience with.
Trialbyfire Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 sally4sara, that's why through most of this thread, I've avoided responding to you. It's too personal for you and any questions or comments from me, are viewed and responded to, with hostility, but when it suits the points you want to make, you bring up your own experiences. Anyways, as I said before, round, round this goes, never-ending. Women are just exploited victims...of themselves.
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