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To OW/OM - what would you do if BS committed suicide as a result of the affair?

mental_traveller

By mental_traveller
in The Other Man / Woman

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Lizzie60 Established Member

Lizzie60

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I should add.. saying that suicide is cowardice or selfish.. is like saying depression is cowardice and selfish.. :o

NoIDidn't Established Member

NoIDidn't

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Most suicides can be prevented if people actually meant it when they ask "how are you?".

 

I'll have to disagree with this... I did 3 very serious attempts.. and it's not selfishness, cowardice.. or anything like that.. it's a deep deep depression that makes us not think or act responsibly... we're just not ourselves anymore.... we're like a totally different, new person... Depression completely changes someone..

 

I had great friends.. good family... a perfect bf (at the time)... a lot of people who were genuinely caring for me.. but nonetheless.. I thought I had no reason to live.. and, unlike many people.. no one would have doubted that I was going to kill myself.. I was making tremendous efforts to hide my plans.. (which were, by the way, meticulously thought and planned months ahead)...

 

 

I'm sorry for your experience, Lizzie. But I did say "most" and not "all".

 

I truly believe that people can pull the suicidal from the brink if we were more willing to inconvenience ourselves to help them. It might take listening all night. It might take kidnapping them to an ER for observation. Its all inconveniencing to have to care about someone enough to put my own life's schedule on hold.

 

I really believe this, though. I can understand your disagreement, too. But I do really believe that most suicides can be prevented (sometimes just delayed, but still its better than nothing).

bentnotbroken Established Member

bentnotbroken

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I think this is an interesting sentiment. I agree with much of it. We will never know exactly how much we hurt someone. And I agree that anyone that resorts to suicide is in a lot of pain. But I differ in my thinking in that someone's pain doesn't change the ultimate fact that their actions are selfish. It has nothing to do with blame...

 

IMO the circumstances are just that... circumstances. And the choices built upon those circumstances are also just that... choices. I apply this thinking to all choices. A man may decides to cheat on his wife because he feels miserable in his marriage and is seeking validation in another woman. His bad marriage, his need for validation and the OW's willingness to engage with him were circumstances and they influenced him heavily. But his choice to start an affair was his choice.

 

A wife may decide to commit suicide because she feel her whole life crumbled when she found out about an affiar. The affair and the pain were the circumstance that she built her choice to take her life on.

 

It doesn't have to do with blame or fault. Nobody (and I mean that) is responsible for the choices. Even my messed up childhood isn't holding a gun to my head and causing me to make choices. It's simply an influence.

 

ETA

I just wanted to add that I've certainly dealt with depression, and I've certainly contemplated suicide. There are dark times, and it's in those times that it is ESPECIALLY important to own your own actions. Are we so incapable if independent thought that we must become reactional to the point of ending our life? This can never be someone else's fault... even if they destroyed everything we loved single handed... out decision to give up would be our own.

 

It's that pity party that we hold for ourselves on lonely nights that tell us "they'd be better off without me... they don't really love me... they won't miss me until I'm gone". That's all just twisted thinking. And words that you're feeding yourself so you don't have admit that these decisions lie on your own shoulders. It has so much less to do with the circumstances that people have created for you and so much more to do with yourself.[/QUOTE]

 

 

 

I think the general thought is that suicide would because of the A. But, my thoughts were that the A was the straw that broke the camel's back. It was the final esteem killing bullet. I never thought, or the people in my support group, that it was about anyone missing us. We thought we wouldn't be missed. It was about stopping the intense pain. There is a thought that the only choice it the choice to check out. There is no feeding one's self. But there are the negative comments of those you love, that ring over and over in your head. And if you are OCD as I am, it's even worse, because I could never live up to my own expectations for myself.

 

And yes the thinking is twisted and frightening and overwhelming. It isn't the same a just being blue or a little depressed. It is about a chemical imbalance for some of us. There was a young mother in our group, who did commit suicide. She left 3 young children. Before I was in that group, I would have thought, selfish witch, how could she? But then I knew some of the particulars. She couldn't read. She was a HS dropout that wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia when she was an adult. She had 3 children and her H was in jail. No skills, no prospects, no support, and she was afraid, angry and felt hopeless. She tried putting her children with family members, they abused the kids. She felt she had nowhere to turn. Yes her thinking was twisted, something she couldn't help, no matter what her choices were. She was at a disadvantage from the beginning.

 

You are right about it being just an opinion about a choice. Sometimes, not most, it is something so far beyond the control of the person without professional help. I never knew that I had a problem. I had always been that way. I assumed it was just a bad part of my personality. I didn't know that it was part of my brain, my make-up or that it could cause me to take my own life. Just the perspective of one person who has contemplated, planned and even attempted suicide.

NoIDidn't Established Member

NoIDidn't

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I should add.. saying that suicide is cowardice or selfish.. is like saying depression is cowardice and selfish.. :o

 

I just saw this. I didn't say either of those things, personally. I don't think that suicide is either cowardly or selfish. I was just commenting that it seems to be a view only seen in Western societies of it being that way.

 

Most of us wouldn't want to be shot dead by someone else, let alone by ourselves. That's definitely not cowardly, IMO.

 

It might not always come through in my post, but I am a pretty compassionate person most of the time.

burning 4 revenge Established Member

burning 4 revenge

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Which proves that the wool can be pulled over anyone's eyes...except the daughter in this situation.

No, Id rather my Godmother was alive, of course, but the second wife is actually much more pleasant to be around

burning 4 revenge Established Member

burning 4 revenge

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Most suicides can be prevented if people actually meant it when they ask "how are you?".

 

I'll have to disagree with this... I did 3 very serious attempts.. and it's not selfishness, cowardice.. or anything like that.. it's a deep deep depression that makes us not think or act responsibly... we're just not ourselves anymore.... we're like a totally different, new person... Depression completely changes someone..

 

I had great friends.. good family... a perfect bf (at the time)... a lot of people who were genuinely caring for me.. but nonetheless.. I thought I had no reason to live.. and, unlike many people.. no one would have doubted that I was going to kill myself.. I was making tremendous efforts to hide my plans.. (which were, by the way, meticulously thought and planned months ahead)...

Its very easy to kill yourself

 

Sorry, but they werent serious attempts

Lizzie60 Established Member

Lizzie60

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Its very easy to kill yourself

 

Sorry, but they werent serious attempts

 

Oh yeah.. you really think so? Have you ever tried?

 

I did.. 3 times.. and even the doctors told me, each time, that it was a miracle.. the two last times, I was in a coma..

 

Anyway.. you have to go through this type of ordeal to know what you're talking about.. :o

NoIDidn't Established Member

NoIDidn't

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Its very easy to kill yourself

 

Sorry, but they werent serious attempts

 

<giggles, a little> Stop it. That's such a mean thing to say.

 

Seriously, some people do have very serious ATTEMPTS at suicide because it gets them the attention that they want/need.

 

Its still a cry for help. Its just questionable about the kind of help the person actually needs.

burning 4 revenge Established Member

burning 4 revenge

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Oh yeah.. you really think so? Have you ever tried?

 

I did.. 3 times.. and even the doctors told me, each time, that it was a miracle.. the two last times, I was in a coma..

 

Anyway.. you have to go through this type of ordeal to know what you're talking about.. :o

No Ive never tried because I dont have the stomach for it

 

But if I was serious about dying it wouldnt be hard to find a sure proof spot to jump

NoIDidn't Established Member

NoIDidn't

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No Ive never tried because I dont have the stomach for it

 

But if I was serious about dying it wouldnt be hard to find a sure proof spot to jump

 

Believe it or not, most people survive jumps - unless its off a brigde into deep water.

 

They survive to be vegetables. And that's far worse than whatever they were running from.

bentnotbroken Established Member

bentnotbroken

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No Ive never tried because I dont have the stomach for it

 

But if I was serious about dying it wouldnt be hard to find a sure proof spot to jump

 

 

You seriously don't know what you are talking about. I don't agree with Lizzie on much, but unless you have been in that frame of mind, you don't have a clue. Not dying doesn't have anything to do with the seriousness of the attempt or the avenue taken to try to kill one's self.:confused:

White Flower Established Member

White Flower

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Oh yeah.. you really think so? Have you ever tried?

 

I did.. 3 times.. and even the doctors told me, each time, that it was a miracle.. the two last times, I was in a coma..

 

Anyway.. you have to go through this type of ordeal to know what you're talking about.. :o

Wow, Lizzie, no one would know! You seem so upbeat and enjoying life all the time. I'm glad you're in a better place.

 

I understand about the depression thing causing one to go down that road. I tend to become depressed but always reason with myself before my thoughts get further.

 

It SEEMS selfish that a woman would, after discovering an A, immediately kill herself yet I'm sure there are many combinations of reasons that would lead to it. Could be shock + revenge = selfishness? Or shock + an existing depression = escape from the misery?

NoIDidn't Established Member

NoIDidn't

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It SEEMS selfish that a woman would, after discovering an A, immediately kill herself yet I'm sure there are many combinations of reasons that would lead to it. Could be shock + revenge = selfishness? Or shock + an existing depression = escape from the misery?

 

I don't think the oP gave a timeline to when the BS killed themselves.

 

I've never known for it to be immediate. Maybe within a few weeks or months, but never immediately.

 

And usually its because they aren't getting any support.

TOWinNYC Established Member

TOWinNYC

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First off, suicide IS a selfish act. Anytime I've been in a deep depression and the times I've contemplated doing something like that - it's been for purely selfish reasons. The pain I was in blinded me. I wasn't thinking about the people I'd leave behind. And I didn't care because I was focused on ME. How's that for selfish?

 

But going back to the original question - I would care as much about the BW as she would care about the OW if the BW found out the OW committed suicide.

bentnotbroken Established Member

bentnotbroken

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First off, suicide IS a selfish act. Anytime I've been in a deep depression and the times I've contemplated doing something like that - it's been for purely selfish reasons. The pain I was in blinded me. I wasn't thinking about the people I'd leave behind. And I didn't care because I was focused on ME. How's that for selfish?

 

But going back to the original question - I would care as much about the BW as she would care about the OW if the BW found out the OW committed suicide.

 

 

 

So for you it was selfish, because you only thought about you and the pain you were in. And you didn't care because you were only focused on you and not the people left behind.

 

For me I envisioned my children having opportunities they would have never had with the "bad" mother I constantly believed I was. I envisioned my siblings not having to "live up to" the image I created(and was placed as the standard to follow by our parents) and I envisioned Mr. Messy finally being happy, since I was the "cause" of all his:rolleyes:pain. I went so far as to plan how to make it look like an accident for the double indemnity policy.

Kamikaze Established Member

Kamikaze

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One cannot take responsibility for another persons mental illness.

 

Kami

TOWinNYC Established Member

TOWinNYC

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For me I envisioned my children having opportunities they would have never had with the "bad" mother I constantly believed I was. I envisioned my siblings not having to "live up to" the image I created(and was placed as the standard to follow by our parents) and I envisioned Mr. Messy finally being happy, since I was the "cause" of all his:rolleyes:pain. I went so far as to plan how to make it look like an accident for the double indemnity policy.

 

Okay. But at the end of the day it all reflects back to YOU. YOU envisioned your children having opportunities that wouldn't exist with YOU as a bad mother. YOU envisioned your siblings not living up to an image YOU created. YOU envisioned Mr. Messy suffering because of YOU. It was all about YOU.

 

HOW IS THAT NOT SELFISH?

bentnotbroken Established Member

bentnotbroken

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Okay. But at the end of the day it all reflects back to YOU. YOU envisioned your children having opportunities that wouldn't exist with YOU as a bad mother. YOU envisioned your siblings not living up to an image YOU created. YOU envisioned Mr. Messy suffering because of YOU. It was all about YOU.

 

HOW IS THAT NOT SELFISH?

 

 

Because I was thinking of the benefits to everyone else, and you did miss the sarcasm. How was I supposed to know that I have a chemical imbalance that doesn't allow me to think rationally when in emotional pain without medication. From what you are saying a bi-polar person not on meds(especially undiagnosed)is selfish for not thinking rationally? That makes about as much sense using a tampon if you've had a hysterectomy.:confused:

NoIDidn't Established Member

NoIDidn't

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Okay. But at the end of the day it all reflects back to YOU. YOU envisioned your children having opportunities that wouldn't exist with YOU as a bad mother. YOU envisioned your siblings not living up to an image YOU created. YOU envisioned Mr. Messy suffering because of YOU. It was all about YOU.

 

HOW IS THAT NOT SELFISH?

 

 

Okay? How is it selfish? The only person they are physically harming is themselves?

 

I just don't see it as purely selfish. I get what you are saying how it all goes back to the person's pain, but wasn't that what it was about to begin with? This is that person doing something about their pain in a way that is not intended to hurt others in its execution (sorry for the word, pun NOT intended).

GreenEyedLady Established Member

GreenEyedLady

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I know a man who committed suicide when he was going through a very messy divorce...

 

And I found it odd that people would say he was selfish...

 

I don't think that anyone who HAS NOT SERIOUSLY CONTEMPLATED SUICIDE has any idea of what the mindset is...

 

When I hear about someone committing suicide I think that they must have been so sad and so out of their minds that they weren't thinking at all...They didn't have any hope that it would get better, they must have believed that everyone would be better off without them around...

 

Why does everyone have a worst intentions mindset? Why can't we accept that others don't think the way we do and try to understand how THEY FEEL? Maybe if we spent more time listening to others and not pointing fingers, people would get the support they need...

 

And someone who actually goes through with suicide is not thinking about the future...They just want to end the pain now...

NoIDidn't Established Member

NoIDidn't

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I know a man who committed suicide when he was going through a very messy divorce...

 

And I found it odd that people would say he was selfish...

 

I don't think that anyone who HAS NOT SERIOUSLY CONTEMPLATED SUICIDE has any idea of what the mindset is...

 

When I hear about someone committing suicide I think that they must have been so sad and so out of their minds that they weren't thinking at all...They didn't have any hope that it would get better, they must have believed that everyone would be better off without them around...

 

Why does everyone have a worst intentions mindset? Why can't we accept that others don't think the way we do and try to understand how THEY FEEL? Maybe if we spent more time listening to others and not pointing fingers, people would get the support they need...

 

And someone who actually goes through with suicide is not thinking about the future...They just want to end the pain now...

 

We don't agree often, but ITA with this.

 

I, too, fail to see where suicide is selfish. Its a tough decision. I've never gotten that far in a depressed state to actually want to kill myself - regardless of the circumstances. Even in your story, you mention a man that's getting divorced.

 

I think we spent too much time trying to blame people for their problems that we fail to see that a person is having a problem and needs some help.

TOWinNYC Established Member

TOWinNYC

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I don't know y'all. I still think at the end of the day we are all responsible for our OWN actions (as you've heard me say here on LS time and time again).,

bentnotbroken Established Member

bentnotbroken

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Okay? How is it selfish? The only person they are physically harming is themselves?

 

I just don't see it as purely selfish. I get what you are saying how it all goes back to the person's pain, but wasn't that what it was about to begin with? This is that person doing something about their pain in a way that is not intended to hurt others in its execution (sorry for the word, pun NOT intended).

 

 

Even if I believed it was a selfish act(which I did in the past), how would it compare to the selfish act of a WS and exposure to STD's, kind of moot, for me anyway.

bentnotbroken Established Member

bentnotbroken

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I don't know y'all. I still think at the end of the day we are all responsible for our OWN actions (as you've heard me say here on LS time and time again).,

 

 

Rationale judgement, even a court, makes one responsible if they can think and act with reasonable thought processes. Not all suicidal people have the capability to think rationally without professional help over a period of time. Did the thoughts go away once I was on medication, no. The meds helped me to think my way through(with group and my therapist) to make sense of the emotions and confusion. All aspects helped me learn new coping mechanisms and recognize the signs that I maybe headed for trouble again. With that said, I don't think any one person or one act can push someone to suicide. But I do believe they can be contributing factors and maybe even the last straw.

NoIDidn't Established Member

NoIDidn't

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I don't know y'all. I still think at the end of the day we are all responsible for our OWN actions (as you've heard me say here on LS time and time again).,

 

LOL. I agree but I also don't think one gets to pick and choose what they are responsible for.

 

I mean, if someone you loved committed suicide because of the extremely hurtful actions of another, who are you gonna blame? The person that's dead? Or the person whose actions precipitated them being dead?

 

I know who I would want to place the blame on. Not saying I'd be right, but its a normal reaction in these cases.

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