Author Spark1111 Posted April 30, 2009 Author Posted April 30, 2009 And as a confident woman, I still don't get it, apologies to all if need be. I do not pretend to be better, just different. I have never been with a man, wouldn't be with a man, who was not physically exclusive with me, let alone a wife he claimed to be unhappy with but banged once or twice a week while having an affair with another woman. TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE MIND SET OF A WOMAN WHO WOULD NOT OBJECT TO THIS. It is like traveling in a foreign country. I am trying to understand her, not judge her, but understand,, what makes this okay. No man that I know would put up with this. Why do women put up with this? You want great sex? Okay, I get that. Find an unattached 25=year old, or pay for it from a pro. But how could you be with someone who admits they are not exclusive with you, and you still provide a sexual outlet for them. Why? How? And you also provide an emotional outlet for them. Do you have the lowest self-e3steem on th planet? Hello, wipe your feet on my back? nd men, is this attractive to you? Is this the girl you f#$k? But never commit to?
Reggie Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 You cannot understand it because you are wired differently. But, to some, it is merely recreation . Many women are like this, believe it or not.
jj33 Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 Spark I dont want to burst your bubble but based on your initial posts, I find it HIGHLY unlikely that he told her you had frequent sex. Highly highly unlikely. In fact I wouldnt buy it. You may be getting a sanitized and more appealing version of the truth - he may be trying to appease you. The main thing is its done. Its behind you. The other thing is if he did say that, she may have believed (in some twisted way) that it was obligatory or that it not doing it for him and he preferred her or he wouldnt be with her. I am not saying this is true, or that it would or should be enough to make a difference, but there would have to be some compensating factor to make up for that. However I dont buy it. Not for a minute.
jj33 Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 The other possibility is that she saw him as a meal ticket as you say. That she used him too. Why she is any less deserving of respect than your H I am not sure... they were both in the wrong here. I dont want to ascribe terrible motives to her, but its possible that she thought if she got pregnant (which she did how usual is that - its not) that he would leave.. yes she could have been that calculating. Who knows. Its just hard to believe she was told her he was having sex with you several times a week and was Ok with that unless she had a very different agenda.
Mr. Lucky Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 You may be getting a sanitized and more appealing version of the truth - he may be trying to appease you. Bingo. You've heard his version as told to you, would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall when he was telling her. I'm always amazed at the lengths OW and OM go to so they may deny the fact that, at the end of the day, their AP goes home and climbs into bed with someone else... Mr. Lucky
Liquid Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 But as I try to get a better handle on my own situation, I am not sure what to think anymore. Do the Affair Partners lie both to themselves and each other to get unmet needs filled? Help! My head is spinning. People who have affair have low morals. PERIOD!
jj33 Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Spark she is never going to talk to you. She has her pain you have yours. You would think she would, but she has decided not to. What could she say? If you asked her why she wouldnt have reasons for you. None that would make sense to you. She slept with your husband. Nothing she could ever say to you would be enough to make it make sense. If you are curious to see whether her story matches up with your husband's, that is another issue but she has chosen not to get into the middle of that. And really she has no obligation to speak to you or to confirm or deny anything that happened with your H. How you repair your marriage is between you and him. You sound like someone who has always been responsible, always tried to do the right thing and to be gracious and to be the "bigger" person. But it doesnt seem to be working for you here. Get angry. Lose some control. Let your emotions out. Otherwise you may have a much harder time getting past this. Continuing to say I acted like a lady (i recall your old tag line) I would never do this or that is fine in theory but you are dealing with raw emotions here. Your husband cheated on you, maybe you need to NOT rise above it and really feel what you are feeling and not tell yourself you need to maintain decorum. Just a thought.
OWoman Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 In the course of finally discussing the details of my WS 1.5 year affair with a work colleague, I asked, "Did she ever ask you if we were still physically intimate, what did you say and what was the outcome?" Answer: "Yes, she asked and I said, 'Yes,' and she was very disappointed." Me: "But she still had sex with you?" Him: "Yes." Spark - there are many different OWs and many different reasons why they have As. For some, it's a completely emotion-free zone of mutual, stringless pleasure. For others, it's a meeting of soulmates, with the sexual aspect less foregrounded or even absent. There are all kinds of positions between those extremes, and all kinds of other reasons on different planes. I was one of those OWs who didn't expect exclusivity from my MMs - by the nature of their being M, I didn't consider it for a moment - but neither did I offer it from my side. I was upfront about having several and that was part of the agreement. By nature I'm not sexually exclusive (despite my current "blip" with my H) and I didn't expect them to be either - it genuinely doesn't make the slightest difference to me, so long as my sexual health is protected (to the extent where that is possible, since all sex carries at least some risk!) But I suspect your H's OW was not one of those. The fact that she reportedly expressed disappointment suggests otherwise. (This is, of course, assuming that your H's account of the exchange is accurate - he may have softened it for your sake, or he may have heard and interpreted it that way when she said / meant something else, or any of a number of other deliberate or unintentional slips of translation). It sounds to me like she would have preferred him to have been sexually exclusive with her, but was settling for sharing since a piece of him was better than nothing. The OW board suggests that a number of OW do that - though some invest in believing that the MM is not having sex with the W; some are told that by the MM and take him at his word; and some accept that he has a sex life with his W but it "must" be minimal and boring, by virtue of his having a sex life with his OW. While your sympathy with her speaks volumes about you as a person, ultimately she will remain a closed book to you because - as JJ says - you will never be able to get into her head to understand her reasoning in any way that can really make sense to you. Nor would understanding her provide a lightbulb moment of closure for you - it would either fill you with sympathy or it would fill you with anger and antipathy or it would leave you cold - but HER role (motivations, intentions, perspective) still remain extraneous to the resolution between you and your H. HER perspective sheds no useful light on his motivation or intentions or behaviour - he's probably even less aware of them than you, and deeply invested in his own interpretation of what she "must have" thought or felt. In your shoes, I wouldn't spend too much time on what you imagined she really thought or felt; construct the scenario that best supports your ability to let her go, to let it go and to focus on building what you have and want with your H. She's part of your past; understanding her will not be key to understanding any future OWs who may come along... but understanding what keeps you and your H invested in your M, and what could threaten that, could be useful in whatever life next deals you to face in your M, from whatever direction it comes.
2sure Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Spark - when I was OW, there never was a D-Day. I left the relationship and moved on. Because I always knew that was going to be the end result, it was easy for me. It was harder on him and he still emails me now and then as a friend because he misses the contact. I never ever respond. Part of my motivation when I ended the relationship....was when I accidentally met his wife. The moment she became an actual physical person....things changed for me, so I couldn't remain as detached as I was previously. When I told him about the accidental meeting, I think he was happy that in some small way his fantasy life collided with his real life. It made it more real and valid. Or something. Anyway - the thing is: THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH HIS MARRIAGE. THEY HAD SEX A LOT. HE LOVED HER. The A was a manifestation of his own selfishness, midlife crisis, whatever you want to call it. That became even more clear to me after I stepped away. Eventually I remarried. My H cheated on me shortly after the wedding. We have recovered, in part because my previous experience with MM told me this was not done because there was something lacking in ME. It also told me that it had very little to do with OW. So, other than telling her to back off, there was no point in asking her anything. You want closure from her. For people like you, and even me - closure begins and ends with forgiveness. Spark - she has nothing to offer you. The A doesn't translate into real life...so the logic and course...just doesn't apply.
2sure Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Just thought of something else that may apply. When I was seeing the particular Mm I spoke of...I moved onto other MM. Thats a topic addressed in other threads. The thing is... It was always MM job to make sure he didn't get caught. And I had to be comfortable with his level of intelligence, freedom of travel, and ability to use discretion from the get go. I had a life, I had a daughter. His getting caught would bring drama to my life and I would have been livid. Livid at him for being stupid enough to get caught. I didn't want to become part of anyone's marriage drama. If a BS would have called me, I would have been angry at her for the intrusion. HE was HER problem, not mine. If it wasn't me, it would have been someone else. In retrospect, having learned from my own mistakes, and having my ass handed to me via Karma....I realize how wrong my thinking was...but thats where my head was at then.
Mr. Lucky Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Spark - when I was OW, there never was a D-Day. I left the relationship and moved on. Because I always knew that was going to be the end result, it was easy for me. It was harder on him and he still emails me now and then as a friend because he misses the contact. I never ever respond. I don't remember your backstory 2sure, were you also married at the time? Mr. Lucky
2sure Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 No, no. I was single. To be honest, it was not a good time in my life - I just didnt realize it so much. I married and have not so much as looked at another man since.
NoIDidn't Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 I think he DID tell her you guys had frequent sex. She just tried to offer him what she thought was "better" sex. She tried to out freak you. And when it was out in the open, she saw that she made a fool of herself in many ways during the A and that's probably why she won't talk to you. I don't say this to make her into a bad person or even to disparage her. She sounds like she realized that she was fighting a losing battle with a man that obviously loved his W. What could she ever say to you that would gain your forgiveness? In fact, anything that she shared with you would just serve to make you angry. And I agree with jj33, that you need to get ANGRY. I was like that until I decided to "let him have it".
jj33 Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Spark sometimes we are subconsciously afraid to get angry. We are afraid that if we let all the pain and hurt and rage that we feel out, we will never stop, that we will come unhinged. And if you place as much importance as you seem to on rising above it that it somehow compromises your view of who you are and that you are acting in a way that is beneath you. But you have been badly hurt. And you need to let it out. Everyone is different. But I would think its much harder to get over if you are not allowing yourself to express the rage that you have every right to feel. So what if your H has been "trying" he needs to stand by and be there while you express yourself. From what you used to post, he sounds like he is passive in many ways and you need to protect him or run things and take control all the time. Lose control. It will be good for you.
65tr6 Posted May 1, 2009 Posted May 1, 2009 Unfortunately, the more I learn of her, the less I respect her and her motivations. . Spark, the OW has sunk to the lowest possible levels. She is a complete loser. I would not analyse any of her "beliefs" or "values" or "love". If you do that, you are only wasting your time. Remember, your focus is NOT OW but your husband and your marriage. She is a NOBODY. It was a f* affair...done in secrecy with no boundaries, no values, no morals...you get the point.
joyz Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 One of my greatest regrets is that she refused to talk with me, despite all the compassion I had for her and her position. What was she afraid of? Care to speculate? I cannot reach her, she refuses to return my calls. She still seems angry at him/me when I try to reach out to her. Why would this be? Thanks, Spark based on what you've said about her, its probably bc your H has answered all the questions she had and does not need answers from you. she has the closure she needs. i'm curious, what questions would u ask her?
joyz Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 "the OW has sunk to the lowest possible levels. She is a complete loser. I would not analyse any of her "beliefs" or "values" or "love". If you do that, you are only wasting your time. Remember, your focus is NOT OW but your husband and your marriage. She is a NOBODY. It was a f* affair...done in secrecy with no boundaries, no values, no morals...you get the point" I think the bad one here is the H. If the OW is "complete loser w/ no beliefs or values, or love", then what do you think of the H? ironically, after all the mess that he has created, he still gets to choose who to stay with. think about it. is this fair?
Molley Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 Maybe because I'm living through this right now, but if I was single, the thought of havng sex with a man who is married, happily or not, makes me ill. He's not available, how difficult is that to understand? There are so many wonderful, single and available men (or woman) around, why would a woman choose a married man. Why would a woman knowingly cause so much pain. IT will be painful to her, the man, his family... just makes me ill. I feel for you, my husband slept with a single woman, who has a 7 year old son. They had only known each other a few weeks before the affair started. What gets me, is she actually went through her own affair pain a few years before, when her husband screwed around on her with her best friend. So, she goes and does the same thing. Just like this posts OW, she's also a good Christian woman. Pathetic. Now we're all left picking up the pieces and not sure how to move forward. AND.... in no way am I excusing the husband, he's just as pathetic.
Author Spark1111 Posted May 3, 2009 Author Posted May 3, 2009 First, let me say I have raged and ranted, become unhinged, and let it all out. My wrath has been directed at him. I post here when I feel I have reached a true stepping stone in my healing, or when I have a question no other person --WS or OW-- can/will/or remember the answer to. I suppose I so love this man and am trying on all four burners to make a future with him, that the questions that cannot be answered by him are posted on LS for your input and interpretations. And all of you, coming from many different perspectives, always make me feel better by giving me food for thought. My husband fell in love with his affair partner, and I do believe she fell in love with him, if the texts I discovered on DDay were a true indication of the passion felt in this relationship. If they weren't, why all the false posturing? That will always hurt me to the core of my soul. Can't help that folks. So I guess this is about me trying to understand his attraction to her. Like I have posted before, I THOUGHT she and I had many key characteristics in common. The more I learn of her, the less I think so. No, I know so. For those of us who are BS, the last hurdle to healing, IMO, is to regain respect again for our WS. It would almost be easier to accept "this is the love of my life, I'm confused" scenario, than...."I use her, she uses me, we pretend 'this is the love of our lives' " scenario, because then not only do I RESPECT HIM less, and her less, I feel less secure regarding a future with someone so insecure and susceptible to another affair? What? Do we repeat this most painful episode in our lives when the next person comes along to tell him how wonderful he is? BS, how do you wrap your head around the future?
Author Spark1111 Posted May 3, 2009 Author Posted May 3, 2009 One of my greatest regrets is that she refused to talk with me, despite all the compassion I had for her and her position. What was she afraid of? Care to speculate? I cannot reach her, she refuses to return my calls. She still seems angry at him/me when I try to reach out to her. Why would this be? Thanks, Spark based on what you've said about her, its probably bc your H has answered all the questions she had and does not need answers from you. she has the closure she needs. i'm curious, what questions would u ask her? I think it is the classic question all BS are left with as they start to truly heal from the betrayal, and of course, Question #2 is specific to my situation. They are both highly moral in content: 1.) HOW DID YOU GIVE YOURSELF PERMISSION to have an affair with my husband/wife, the father/mother of my children, and help him/her cause the greatest emotional pain I have ever felt in my life by sneaking, lying, sleeping with him/her? 2.) ESPECIALLY when your ex broke your heart by cheating on you and then marrying his last affair partner and dragging you through a bitter and acrimonious divorce that continues in court oh, so many years later? I guess, it all boils down to the golden rule, the truest tenet of every religious faith and progressive political movement in history: DO UNTO Others as you would have them do unto you. That, Joyz, is what I would ask, will ask, if I ever do see this woman.
OpenBook Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 Question #2 is specific to my situation. They are both highly moral in content: 1.) HOW DID YOU GIVE YOURSELF PERMISSION to have an affair with my husband/wife, the father/mother of my children, and help him/her cause the greatest emotional pain I have ever felt in my life by sneaking, lying, sleeping with him/her? 2.) ESPECIALLY when your ex broke your heart by cheating on you and then marrying his last affair partner and dragging you through a bitter and acrimonious divorce that continues in court oh, so many years later? Maybe since she followed all the rules the first time around and got royally screwed for it, she has no faith in or respect for marital vows anymore. I can see how that kind of experience would warp one's outlook on the institution of marriage forevermore.
jj33 Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 Spark you are never going to get a satisfactory answer to that question. Its one of those things you are going to have to live with. And I suspect if she did speak to you, she would tell a story very different than the tale you have heard from your H. People dont do that and have a child with someone who they dont think is in love with them. I dont know how you get past it. But the "she meant nothing to me" is sometimes assumed to be a better response than "I fell in love". Maybe he didnt fall in love. Maybe she fell in love and he didnt. But I suspect a lot of what you are hearing from your spouse is sanitized and sadly you are never going to have answers that satisfy you. There is no "excuse" for your H having an affair. The fact that she participated is less important than the fact that your H was suspectible to the affair. You arent doing yourself any favors by continuing to focus on the woman. Its your H who cheated on you. And you are never ever going to feel anything other than disgust for anything she says. There is nothing to "understand". What if he told her he was planning to leave? The answer is still why not wait until he did. What if he told her you were unstable? Would you believe her? I think you are looking for her to tell you she was weak and she did a terrible thing. Some women would do that and you deserve that apology but she doesnt sound like the type to give it to you.
65tr6 Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 If the OW is "complete loser w/ no beliefs or values, or love", then what do you think of the H? ironically, after all the mess that he has created, he still gets to choose who to stay with. think about it. is this fair? good point joy. Look, no one said it is fair. At the end of the day, you have to be selfish - for yourself and your family. You have to take care of yourself, your kids, your spouse (no matter how much "broken" they are). Focussing on OW/OM when in most cases BS dont even know them, is that last thing you want to do. Plus it does not help at all if you are recovering.
jj33 Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 65tr6 - why do you say in most cases the BS doesnt even know the OW/OM? I agree that its not productive to focus on them, but how could they not know them unless its a one night stand?
Holding-On Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 Not really, Step. I think some folks just do not care about sharing with others. It is not a big deal toi them and they could well have good self esteem. Thank you. I am impressed with your ability to imagine someone being quite different than yourself. Some people don't want exclusivity. I want to be important, listened to, respected, treated well and stood by by my lovers in hard times but I am not wired that I want my lovers to have no other sex but with me. To me that parceling off of sex always seemed more necessary when we had the inability to prevent procreation, determine paternity, and no ability to minimize/prevent and treat STDs. Having to be someone's sexual everything seems masochistic and inherently patently unfair to the more sexed partner. *(I do understand that most other people on this board do not see it that way) So I do understand the PP thinks it is gross. However, for some people a good shower and a condom is sufficient.
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