39388 Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 You'd have to conduct a poll of most women, and you'd have to believe that they were giving truthful answers. Or you could debate the topic with other men, and form a view based on their opinions and experiences....bearing in mind that the guys who contribute most to those debates won't necessarily be the ones who are successful with women in real life. Why answer the question with a non answer? I'm just asking for people's opinions. I don't have to agree. I have had almost no dates in 35 years, mostly because being I was a doormat until recently. Maybe you resent me for this. Even at 25, there's a good bit of resentment toward inexperienced people, based on several threads over the past few months. I really want to change this lack of dating, and am trying to figure out have much of an a** I need to be to get into a relationship. Several women, about half, that I have communicated with from a dating site have blatantly deceived me and while I want to be nice, I may just have to play these dating games (no matter how much I despise them) to get into a relationship.
39388 Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 There's absolutely nothing worse than a guy who shows up on time for dates and calls when he says he will. Epitome of a nice guy and epitaph of any possibility for an intimate relationship. It would be great to hear from women if this is true. I clearly do the above, though now I'm starting to care less and risk getting somewhere a few minutes late. There is a lot of resentment from *some* on these boards toward people who have struggled to get dates. Some of it is well deserved, but in other cases it really angers me. The patterns I see are the resentment is stronger from younger people. The resentment may be strongest from those who keep talking about dating married men.
carhill Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 It would be great to hear from women if this is true. Hearing them is one thing. Watching their actions is the truth
39388 Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Hearing them is one thing. Watching their actions is the truth I'd like to think words will match actions. Clearly, this is not the case with some. Others are honest with me. The type of people I befriend, of both genders, do not jerk me around constantly. Some have tried to and the friendship ends.
Trialbyfire Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Isn't a doormat somebody who is not equipped to handle conflict and is in victim mode all the time? A doormat can be extremely passive agressive and thinks they are a "nice guy". Many posts on here confirm most people avoid doormats, as was my experience when I was a quite the doormat for many years.Yes, this would be a doormat. From what I read on here a "nice guy" is not necessarily a doormat and some of them can stand up to others when necessary, rather than get taken advantage of. However they don't usually fight or argue when there is no reason. I really hate that term "nice guy" since it's been misused by doormats for eons. Set your boundaries for behaviour and if someone doesn't meet up to those boundaries, don't lash out, just gently chide them for their behaviour and if things don't change, turn your back and walk away. What still confuses me is whether most women find non doormat nice guys undesirable.You've got to be kidding, right? My fiance is a balanced kind of guy. He has strong and reasonable ethical boundaries. He treats people with respect until they prove otherwise. Even in conflict, he doesn't go ballistic but retains calm. This doesn't mean he doesn't get his shots in and won't call you to task, but without lashing out. Most often, he de-escalates and negotiates.
39388 Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 You've got to be kidding, right? My fiance is a balanced kind of guy. He has strong and reasonable ethical boundaries. He treats people with respect until they prove otherwise. Even in conflict, he doesn't go ballistic but retains calm. This doesn't mean he doesn't get his shots in and won't call you to task, but without lashing out. Most often, he de-escalates and negotiates. Not sure what you meant about me kidding??? I still am kind of confused by much of this. I see what men post and what women post and I don't know what to believe sometimes. It is often so different. Yes, this whole dating process is often frustrating. I'm someone who will do somthing when I say I'm going to do it nearly 100% of the time. Clearly, not everyone likes that and it frustrates, no angers, me. Maybe the *right* woman will like it.
Trialbyfire Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Not sure what you meant about me kidding??? I still am kind of confused by much of this. I see what men post and what women post and I don't know what to believe sometimes. It is often so different. Yes, this whole dating process is often frustrating.Just look around at the LS threads. Both genders post about issues but you'll find that many threads are skewed, since many don't want to look like the "bad guy" or are in denial, as to why the relationship or dating experience ceased. Pride without balance is a relationship killer, of which I've noticed it's worse in men. Denial is more rampant in women. An inability to self-examine, is a relationship killer. With this in mind, I would take a lot of advice with a grain of salt. I'm someone who will do somthing when I say I'm going to do it nearly 100% of the time. Clearly, not everyone likes that and it frustrates, no angers, me. Maybe the *right* woman will like it.This is a highly valued trait unless you've hooked a gamer. If you've hooked one, drop her like a hot rock and don't look back. In many meat markets like bars and online dating, where people are primarily selecting from shallow attributes, you're going to meet a lot more gamers.
Taramere Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Why answer the question with a non answer? I'm just asking for people's opinions. I don't have to agree. I have had almost no dates in 35 years, mostly because being I was a doormat until recently. Maybe you resent me for this. Even at 25, there's a good bit of resentment toward inexperienced people, based on several threads over the past few months. I don't resent you for having been a doormat. I don't resent you for now trying to not be a doormat. I've got no personal opinion of you, because I don't know you. Maybe there's a build up of resentment, on this forum, of inexperienced people. I haven't seen it. You're asking what most women want in a man. Surely that would be a man who is sexually, mentally, philosophically and emotionally compatible with them. Someone who they feel positive, happy and energised around. My own view of the kind of man I'd want: I suppose that would be all the above wrapped up in a stronger and smarter version of myself....but I'd imagine that most men I meet regard themselves as those things (stronger and smarter), so again that doesn't really answer anything. How does a woman even begin to describe the kind of man she's compatible with, without writing a novel about herself? Sorry, I'm not trying to be awkward...but I don't think it's possible for women to convey successfully what it is they're attracted to unless the person asking them has a very good knowledge and understanding of the women they're questioning.
39388 Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 I don't resent you for having been a doormat. I don't resent you for now trying to not be a doormat. I've got no personal opinion of you, because I don't know you. Maybe there's a build up of resentment, on this forum, of inexperienced people. I haven't seen it. You're asking what most women want in a man. Surely that would be a man who is sexually, mentally, philosophically and emotionally compatible with them. Someone who they feel positive, happy and energised around. My own view of the kind of man I'd want: I suppose that would be all the above wrapped up in a stronger and smarter version of myself....but I'd imagine that most men I meet regard themselves as those things (stronger and smarter), so again that doesn't really answer anything. How does a woman even begin to describe the kind of man she's compatible with, without writing a novel about herself? Sorry, I'm not trying to be awkward...but I don't think it's possible for women to convey successfully what it is they're attracted to unless the person asking them has a very good knowledge and understanding of the women they're questioning. I was too sensitive when I wrote the earlier post and I clearly jumped to the wrong conclusion. I think I let a few posts in a couple of other threads from awhile back get to me. Dating is a difficult subject for me and I'm still trying to come to terms with being a doormat for so many years. Your last message definitely helps. I'm someone who always wants concrete solutions to problems, but there is none when it comes to dating. Every person is different and I need to remember that. I recently had one women refusing to tell me personal details, but she wanted to hook up. I have to know most women are not like that. Men can be so different too, so I know it's got to be hard the other way. Many men insist on sleeping with a woman on the first few dates. I have no desire to share myself that way until I know the woman fairly well, which might be measured in months. I just need to keep trying and keep learning and get some experience. Some of it might not be fun, but I need to get up and try again if I have a bad experience.
Chicago_Guy Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 There's absolutely nothing worse than a guy who shows up on time for dates and calls when he says he will. Epitome of a nice guy and epitaph of any possibility for an intimate relationship. As an older man, I'm finding the more I piss women off, the more they hang around. Since I'm crabbier now anyway, perhaps in part due to resentment for all those years of being a stable, honorable and perhaps predictable guy, it's interesting how life works out Maybe the type of women who date multiple guys at once or always have to be dating someone prefer a man who rarely does what he says he is going to do. However, I don't think I could tolerate the type of woman who would want me to piss her off constantly - that is just way too immature for me.
carhill Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Maybe the type of women who date multiple guys at once or always have to be dating someone prefer a man who rarely does what he says he is going to doYes, this is reflective of my experiences. However, I don't think I could tolerate the type of woman who would want me to piss her off constantly - that is just way too immature for me. I don't know if "want" is anything cognitive or conscious. It is an observation of my experiences since MC where I maintain and enforce my boundaries more assertively. I'm not specifically talking about dating dynamics but rather relationships with women in general. Like women, men have differing emotional setpoints and sensitivities. I might feel overwhelmed and you might be going "that's interesting". We're all different. I think the key, for men who see themselves as good men but lament their lack of success with women, is to look inward both at their own psychology as well as their choices in the type and kind of women they interact with and pursue romantically. TBF once mentioned that I might attract and/or be attracted to EU women. Good point. If correct, that's unhealthy for me because I need (not want) that emotional intimacy for a satisfying relationship. It's up to me to change those signals and my choices.
Yamaha Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 I have no desire to share myself that way until I know the woman fairly well, which might be measured in months. I understand your position but many times if you become friends before moving things to a physical level, women will like you for your mind and not want to ruin the friendship. Women look at friendship different than men so in her mind she is happy with your relationship while you are wanting more than conversation. You can become friends later but you need to move things along if you want to have a romantic relationship. It has to do with attraction. If you don't establish that attraction with her ( and friends will not do it ) then you will always be just a friend. You have to build the sexual tension within her and being her friend does not build attraction in women. They respond to confidence. If you see a women you are interested in don't be afraid to let her know you're interested. Nice guys will sit back and think friendship will win them over but if you don't establish the attraction in them you will never be in a relationship with them. Friends yes, but nothing more.
39388 Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 With this in mind, I would take a lot of advice with a grain of salt. This is a highly valued trait unless you've hooked a gamer. If you've hooked one, drop her like a hot rock and don't look back. In many meat markets like bars and online dating, where people are primarily selecting from shallow attributes, you're going to meet a lot more gamers. Yeah, I have to take much of what I read with a grain of salt. I hope you're right about it being a highly valued trait.
Yamaha Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Yeah, I have to take much of what I read with a grain of salt. I hope you're right about it being a highly valued trait. How has your past experience helped you in getting more than friendship with women? If things are not working for you then maybe you need to find out what does work for yourself rather than accepting other peoples opinions!
39388 Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 I understand your position but many times if you become friends before moving things to a physical level, women will like you for your mind and not want to ruin the friendship. Women look at friendship different than men so in her mind she is happy with your relationship while you are wanting more than conversation. You can become friends later but you need to move things along if you want to have a romantic relationship. It has to do with attraction. If you don't establish that attraction with her ( and friends will not do it ) then you will always be just a friend. You have to build the sexual tension within her and being her friend does not build attraction in women. They respond to confidence. If you see a women you are interested in don't be afraid to let her know you're interested. Nice guys will sit back and think friendship will win them over but if you don't establish the attraction in them you will never be in a relationship with them. Friends yes, but nothing more. I just can't do certain things. However, I do want the physical part to move along with the friendship aspects. Kissing on the 2nd or 3rd date would be ideal to me. If someone expects me to sleep with them when I hardly know them, they are not a match for me. Quite a few people demand that you wait to marriage so I don't see what is wrong with waiting a little while.
Trialbyfire Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 TBF once mentioned that I might attract and/or be attracted to EU women. Good point. If correct, that's unhealthy for me because I need (not want) that emotional intimacy for a satisfying relationship. It's up to me to change those signals and my choices. To clarify that, I think it's tied up with a desire to save, help and/or fix. I hope you don't find that insulting.
carhill Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Not at all. I think a mirror is a healthy thing. Thanks for that. Had the calm D talk today. Didn't try to save; didn't try to fix. We'll calmly go over details tonight at dinner, I trust. For me, the work will be to process this in a way which doesn't harden my heart to my natural tendencies, but rather to sharpen my skills at discerning the right woman to share them with
burning 4 revenge Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 My own view of the kind of man I'd want: I suppose that would be all the above wrapped up in a stronger and smarter version of myself....but I'd imagine that most men I meet regard themselves as those things (stronger and smarter), so again that doesn't really answer anything. How does a woman even begin to describe the kind of man she's compatible with, without writing a novel about herself? You want to meet someone smarter than you? Goodluck with that I think you should settle for someone dumber than you.
wierdmunky Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Maybe the guys you were with were just really nice, decent guys Either way, if you think the guy was being too nice - he was either a doormat or just didn't have that level of raw, roughness that you need. He wasn't a doormat, and I sure didn't treat him like one. I think you can be a "nice guy", and still have some roughness at the same time. I think nice has to do with effort, and being "well-trained". The last guy I had a relationship with was really decent, yes, but he didn't bother to call me the last month we went out either. Nice guys can be mean too.
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