Star Gazer Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Paper - Judaism is much, much more than just a religion. I'm sorry but I have to at this. This was your experience, but it's not necessarily going to be everyone's. I assure you, it was not mine. Why won't you answer the question? These Jewish men did/do want to marry you, a gentile?
serial muse Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 I'm not assuming anything. I'm very, very familiar with Jewish law and custom, both formal and casual. So please, explain. These Jewish men want(ed) to marry you, a gentile? Okay, if you really want to know the details of these relationships, feel free to PM me. I honestly don't feel like discussing them in detail in public. There are lots of things I don't talk about publicly on these forums, "anonymous" or not.
Isolde Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Just wanted to add that if you convert, you're as Jewish as anyone can be and your kids will also be (at least, in the Reform branch). Not that you'd necessary want to (and we are jumping to the conclusion that this will develop into an R!) but Jews don't care nearly as much about ethnicity per se as about the customs and rituals that go along with being a convert or born Jew.
Author xpaperxcutx Posted April 28, 2009 Author Posted April 28, 2009 I've dated several Jewish men. None of them were overly religious; in fact, only one ever even went to temple. All were more than happy to date me, and be in a relationship with me. But at the end of the day, their Jewish bloodline was of the most importance to them. So if you're looking for a 'relationship' that will ultimately go nowhere, then go for it. Star, despite your advice being realistically blunt, I also know it's true.
serial muse Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Paper - Judaism is much, much more than just a religion. Why won't you answer the question? These Jewish men did/do want to marry you, a gentile? Star: PM me, if you really care and don't just want to win a case.
Jake Barnes Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Star, despite your advice being realistically blunt, I also know it's true. Besides your relationship is in violation of the Nuremberg Laws
Star Gazer Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Okay, if you really want to know the details of these relationships, feel free to PM me. I honestly don't feel like discussing them in detail in public. There are lots of things I don't talk about publicly on these forums, "anonymous" or not. My question called for a yes or no, not a novel. I'm not trying to win a case. For that, you get this: So anyway, I'll take your response as a no. I don't need to know the details. Star, despite your advice being realistically blunt, I also know it's true. Paper - you're young, so perhaps dating and relationships DO have a shelf-life to you for now... ya know? I mean, do you really date right now thinking "potential future husband"? Probably not. Perhaps you want your relationships at this point to have an expiration date... right now. So perhaps this arrangement would be okay for you... right now. But what happens 5 years from now, when you're still dating him, and ready to marry, he confirms that he wants to marry a Jewish (born, not converted) woman, because of the laws related to Jewish bloodlines? Been there, pretty much. Sucks.
Author xpaperxcutx Posted April 28, 2009 Author Posted April 28, 2009 Besides your relationship is in violation of the Nuremberg Laws OMG are you calling me a Nazi?
kizik Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Even if certain Jews aren't religious, you can count on the fact that parental pressure will cause them to end up with another Jew, nine times out of ten. Many Jewish families insist on their sons and daughters marrying a Jew above all other factors.
serial muse Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 My question called for a yes or no, not a novel. I'm not trying to win a case. For that, you get this: So anyway, I'll take your response as a no. I don't need to know the details. Yeah, well, check your PMs. :rolleyes: I'm sorry you personally had a bad experience, but is it really necessary to extrapolate to everyone? Jesus. Haha.
Jake Barnes Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 OMG are you calling me a Nazi? No it was just a little unfunny joke
Isolde Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 I think attitudes towards born vs. converted vary a lot depending on sect and the individual families' attitudes. SG, I'm surprised that you generalize to this extent.
Star Gazer Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Just wanted to add that if you convert, you're as Jewish as anyone can be and your kids will also be (at least, in the Reform branch). Not necessarily true. It depends on what movement you speak of. Many do not recognize conversion. And even among those that do, there are people within the moment (e.g., a BF's mother) who may not recognize conversion. Again, Judaism is more than a religion. To many, it's a blood line - a race even. You can't "convert" your race. For example, by your theory, if you live in California, you're "Californian." Period. This may be "technically" true, but for many, they wouldn't recognize that designation. Those born and raised in California, who have lived it and breathed it their entire life, won't necessarily consider Californian someone who moved here last week and received a signed certificate from the governator proclaiming them as such. But on the other hand, there are many who believe anyone can become a Jew through conversion.
Author xpaperxcutx Posted April 28, 2009 Author Posted April 28, 2009 I just had to search your history if only to understand what's going on... ... and to tell you the truth, I don't understand what's going on. Any chance you might be overanalyzing this just a little bit? Any chance you're freaking out because you're feeling vulnerable? I'm in a situation somewhat similar to yours: been dating a man who is sending me mixed signals for a month now (in actions he's 100% there, in words, he was a bit distant). I freaked out about two weeks into it and it made me realize one thing: I was only trying to exhert control on the situation by freaking out. I was also trying to force the relationship along too fast. Right now I'm just focusing on getting to know the guy, and the whole thing is much more enjoyable. hmmm, a lot more enjoyable. Oh hi Kamille! Have you been on LS lately? I haven't seen you lurking around as much. In response to your post, yes sometimes I do notice I can overanalyze things until I start getting a headache. It's unfortunately a quality of mine that I find annoying and bordering on detestable. I sincerely do want to just enjoy the ride of being courted, but sometimes there's always that feeling like I'm just rushing things along just to get a high.
Star Gazer Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Yeah, well, check your PMs. :rolleyes: I'm sorry you personally had a bad experience, but is it really necessary to extrapolate to everyone? Jesus. Haha. My experiences were pleasant, and painful. You're extrapolating just as much, aren't you? I think attitudes towards born vs. converted vary a lot depending on sect and the individual families' attitudes. SG, I'm surprised that you generalize to this extent. Didn't I just say that? You're the one rubber stamping conversion as being "just as good" as being born Jewish. Sheesh.
Isolde Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Not necessarily true. It depends on what movement you speak of. Many do not recognize conversion. And even among those that do, there are people within the moment (e.g., a BF's mother) who may not recognize conversion. The latter is definitely true. The former, I believe Orthodox Jews have a special Orthodox conversion ceremony and won't recognize others... Orthoox Jews are much much more wary about marrying converts. The others are much more open.
serial muse Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 My experiences were pleasant, and painful. You're extrapolating just as much, aren't you? No, Star. I'm not. Here's what I said. 'm sorry but I have to at this. This was your experience, but it's not necessarily going to be everyone's. I assure you, it was not mine. To the OP: that doesn't mean, however, that this isn't a dead end. I would just argue that you cannot know based on the fact that he's Jewish. He may well feel like he needs to be with someone who's Jewish, he may feel conflicted about it, or he may not care one way or the other. All of these things, I assure you, are possible. But we can't tell you which it is.
Author xpaperxcutx Posted April 28, 2009 Author Posted April 28, 2009 Paper - you're young, so perhaps dating and relationships DO have a shelf-life to you for now... ya know? I mean, do you really date right now thinking "potential future husband"? Probably not. Perhaps you want your relationships at this point to have an expiration date... right now. So perhaps this arrangement would be okay for you... right now. But what happens 5 years from now, when you're still dating him, and ready to marry, he confirms that he wants to marry a Jewish (born, not converted) woman, because of the laws related to Jewish bloodlines? Been there, pretty much. Sucks. I don't know what I want right. But I do know I won't be getting married anytime soon. I do see myself in a relationship with me, but I'm afraid of suffering long lengthy ones where in the end I'll end up wasting 5 years on a guy who decides to change his mind about me one day. So yes, I am apprehensive about actually dating him to the point where he might change my mind on marriage in the future. But now I'm more confused than ever. Star, I respect you on on most of the advice you given in general, and the ones that you've given me are eye openers. But now I'm stuck in between two opposing opinions between you and Serial_ Muse. Muse you're right that I can't generalize about evey jewish guy because they're all different in their views. And that I shouldn't be quick to jump to conclusions about ending anything without giving it a chance. However, now I feel like I should just avoid the guy so he wouldn't ask me out again just to avoid the inevitable- ness of breaking up in the future.
serial muse Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 I don't know what I want right. But I do know I won't be getting married anytime soon. I do see myself in a relationship with me, but I'm afraid of suffering long lengthy ones where in the end I'll end up wasting 5 years on a guy who decides to change his mind about me one day. So yes, I am apprehensive about actually dating him to the point where he might change my mind on marriage in the future. But now I'm more confused than ever. Star, I respect you on on most of the advice you given in general, and the ones that you've given me are eye openers. But now I'm stuck in between two opposing opinions between you and Serial_ Muse. Muse you're right that I can't generalize about evey jewish guy because they're all different in their views. And that I shouldn't be quick to jump to conclusions about ending anything without giving it a chance. However, now I feel like I should just avoid the guy so he wouldn't ask me out again just to avoid the inevitable- ness of breaking up in the future. Well, that is what I wanted to avoid. Please, try not to overthink, and don't take my OR Star's experience as indicative of your own. You can only find out from him how he feels about this. I wish I had a magic ball, but I don't - on the other hand, neither does she.
Star Gazer Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Star, I respect you on on most of the advice you given in general, and the ones that you've given me are eye openers. But now I'm stuck in between two opposing opinions between you and Serial_ Muse. Muse you're right that I can't generalize about evey jewish guy because they're all different in their views. And that I shouldn't be quick to jump to conclusions about ending anything without giving it a chance. However, now I feel like I should just avoid the guy so he wouldn't ask me out again just to avoid the inevitable- ness of breaking up in the future. I truly believe MY experience is by far the more common experience of gentile women who date Jewish men. I'm waiting for SM to admit that her experience in having three Jewish boyfriends want to marry her - while inspiring - is certainly out of the ordinary.
Kamille Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 I sincerely do want to just enjoy the ride of being courted, but sometimes there's always that feeling like I'm just rushing things along just to get a high. Yes - exactly - that's definitely a part of it! In my case, it's also been a response to staying too long with my first boyfriend who just wasn't sure whether or not he was into me (back in, oh, 2000). In my last two relationships, I required a fast and prompt commitment - and that also proved to not be so healthy. The issue weren't the guys, the issue is that I tend to lose my balance when I meet someone I like. I need a lot of reassurance really quick, and I count on the guys to give it to me. Right now I'm focusing on keeping my balance and on taking responsibility for myself in this new semi-relationship. No matter what happens with this man, working on this bit about myself will have been worth it. I'm really busy at work so I have been spending less time on the boards.
Star Gazer Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Well, that is what I wanted to avoid. Please, try not to overthink, and don't take my OR Star's experience as indicative of your own. You can only find out from him how he feels about this. I wish I had a magic ball, but I don't - on the other hand, neither does she. I agree it's best to not over-think. But that does not mean you should not think. It's about inherent in/compatibilities. Often times we don't learn what's in one another's "must haves" list until we really get to know them at their core. For some, it's right there on their sleeve. For others, it takes some risrobing to see what's underneath. His "must have" list may include a Jewish bloodline. It may not. Your list may require someone who is not devoit, to any faith. Only time will tell what his list contains, and whether it's compatible with what/who you are, and vice versa. However, that doesn't mean you should close your eyes to the signs of what each other's "must haves" are. Once they become apparent, it's time to evaluate. Feel free to PM me if you'd like.
Star Gazer Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 I sincerely do want to just enjoy the ride of being courted, but sometimes there's always that feeling like I'm just rushing things along just to get a high. I can really, really relate to having felt that way.
serial muse Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 I truly believe MY experience is by far the more common experience of gentile women who date Jewish men. I'm waiting for SM to admit that her experience in having three Jewish boyfriends want to marry her - while inspiring - is certainly out of the ordinary. please do not discuss things that i told you privately in public. thanks.
Star Gazer Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 please do not discuss things that i told you privately in public. thanks. Umm... I didn't. You posted it in this thread. You've had long term prior relationships (plural, at least two) with Jewish men, and your current BF is also a Jew. One, two, three. Jeez.
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