Another Curious Question

[fooled once]

Excellent post herenow and taylor.

 

For this

My MM has no children, if he did I wouldn't be with him. There are valid reasons why he hasn't left his wife yet. I gave him one year and he said he will have it figured out in the next few months.

 

He loves me, not her. I listen to what he says about his home life, but I don't pry. It's not a competition of me vs her because I would win hands down.

 

There are other factors and if he left her tomorrow we would still have to be discreet.

 

In my marriage, my kids were also young (8 and 10) and that ended over 4 years ago. I settled in my relationships since then, but this time, believe me, I am not settling.

You are competiting

I listen to what he says about his home life, but I don't pry. It's not a competition of me vs her because I would win hands down.

And if he loves you - he would be with you --- no matter what.

 

If he loves you, he would shout it from the rooftops and show the world the woman he loves.

 

I gave him one year and he said he will have it figured out in the next few months.

You had to give him an ultimatum.

[OWoman]

The OM couldn't "beat" my husband statistically, but he was the "winner" for several months as he was the only one meeting my emotional needs.

 

This post really made me think. While it's very true that I met my H's emotional needs where his xW had long since (if ever) ceased to do so, I think I met critical other needs for him too.

 

He's by nature a very passionate person, and she not only has sexual hang-ups (she's morbidly obese and has body issues as a result) but has always eschewed PDAs. I'm a very physical person, and I think that resonated with him instantly (like that Love Language book Owl always cites).

 

Also, as a very social person, he felt cut off from family and friends - she considered herself "better" than his family and looked down her nose at them, and alienated his friends by the way she treated him in front of them - and while he'd still see them on his own, he missed having a partner he could share it with as the friends and family would always be coupled up, and he'd be alone. I took to his family instantly, and was thrilled that they liked me too (I'm of a similar age to his siblings, while his W is much older). And his friends were delighted to see him genuinely happy with someone, and so included us as a couple socially.

 

Intellectually, he felt malnourished with her as her orientation is more clerical than intellectual (she's really good at organising, but low on originality) whereas I have a butterfly mind and a very strong creative drive. He found this engaging and was thrilled to be able to discuss anything from deep conceptual propositions to film or music (she hated anything other than classical or granny music). Because all of us work in the same broad field, discussing work was inevitable, but where with her it was limited to (her) sniping about colleagues (and him defending them), he enjoyed being able to discuss issues and strategies with me.

 

Politically, while she claimed liberal views, both her behaviour and her attitudes showed deep conservatism and reactionary leanings. He and I are politically closer - though he thinks some of my views are lunatic fringe and I think he's been hanging out with too many Tories sometimes!

 

H has a very senior rank with a great deal of prestige where status matters. Of his peers, most have "traded up" from the once-pretty wives who've aged badly to hot, smart young things (often their own protegees) and those that have stayed with their original partners are married to hot, smart older-but-you'd-never-guess things! Frumpy, dumb, or ageing is seen as a marker of lower status - the inability to "win" a mate of equivalent desirability. It might sound superficial - and no doubt is - but it's deeply ingrained as an evolutionary compulsion (there are heaps of studies which confirm that) and for men in that position, it matters deeply - however strongly they deny it. Having someone who "turned heads" ratcheted H's status up from "oh shame" to admiration, which was a huge ego blast for him after decades of sympathy and pity from both colleagues and juniors.

 

And, perversely, one need she didn't meet despite expectations was his need to take care of someone. Despite her manifest damage, her pathology would not allow any intimacy or any kind of acceptance of love or caring. After decades of being rebuffed, he's now with a woman who doesn't need to be taken care of in the slightest - but who does enjoy the intimacy, love and care he lavishes upon her - and who returns it to the best of her ability.

 

I'm not claiming that this dynamic is necessarily true of all As, or of all failing Ms - there's far much more to meeting needs than simple laundry lists might suggest - or even that some needs should be met by someone else rather than oneself... but it does form a useful starting point for a R reality check, whatever the R and whatever its assumed / perceived state of health.

[2sure]

OW, I want to say this in a completely non accusatory way...but without the benefit of face to face conversation - it almost cant be done with the written word.

 

Your last post, going into such detail about your H's ex....it sounds like in your head , you are still justifying , still competing.

 

I mean, I'm sure all of her flaws you listed are true, but at this point to have such criticisms on the tip of your tongue....you sounded venomous to be honest.

 

I would think you would have come to some sort of contentment by now and you do sound thrilled with your marriage...but still spiteful. Still justifying.

 

Is it because you have to defend your position frequently here on LS?

I just don't get it.

 

Anywho- I have wanted to ask you: How long was your A with now H going on before his wife became aware of it? How long after that was he able to Divorce?

[NoIDidn't]

Hey, everyone. Thanks for your answers. I was away for a bit and not by a computer for a few days.

 

But now that I am back.....LOL

 

I see that one particular poster is posting while wearing a tinfoil hat.

 

"Why did you have to marry the good looking guy when you're average?" Priceless. I'm still laughing at this.

 

Taylor, great post. I agree too that the men also think/feel they are in competition with the husbands. My ex did things purposefully to evoke a jealous response from my hubs. And when he didn't get the desired response, he would then tell me my H must be having an A to not care about an ex calling the house or hitting on me.

 

OB, great post too! Short, sweet, and to the point.

 

Can someone please help MWC out of the hat, though? I think its stuck.

[taylor]

My ex did things purposefully to evoke a jealous response from my hubs.

 

Ah, yes, this statement triggered one more thought from my memory banks..

 

Later in the day, after the OM gave me that card and he made the comment about how SOMEBODY should have been saying those kinds of things to me, he approached me at work and said this:

 

Am I going to have a jealous husband knocking at my door now?

 

It was the first time he ever mentioned my husband..and we had known each other for almost a year.

 

When I think back on it now, it makes me wonder what answer he really wanted to hear...yes or no.

 

Of course I assured him, "NO, there would not be a jealous husband knocking on his door because I did not plan on showing my husband the card."

 

But maybe he would have rather heard, "Yes, my husband would be very jealous if he knew what was going on."

 

Maybe what he really wanted was an ego boost...not reassurance.

 

Doesn't matter. Just a thought.

 

But again, makes you wonder about the "competition" aspect of an affair...and how much that competition drives the affair by providing the OP with an ego boost they might be craving.

[NoIDidn't]

Ah, yes, this statement triggered one more thought from my memory banks..

 

Later in the day, after the OM gave me that card and he made the comment about how SOMEBODY should have been saying those kinds of things to me, he approached me at work and said this:

 

Am I going to have a jealous husband knocking at my door now?

 

It was the first time he ever mentioned my husband..and we had known each other for almost a year.

 

When I think back on it now, it makes me wonder what answer he really wanted to hear...yes or no.

 

Of course I assured him, "NO, there would not be a jealous husband knocking on his door because I did not plan on showing my husband the card."

 

But maybe he would have rather heard, "Yes, my husband would be very jealous if he knew what was going on."

 

Maybe what he really wanted was an ego boost...not reassurance.

 

Doesn't matter. Just a thought.

 

But again, makes you wonder about the "competition" aspect of an affair...and how much that competition drives the affair by providing the OP with an ego boost they might be craving.

 

Exactly. Humans are very competitive. Somewhere along the line, its become a taboo to admit to it. Men would risk life and limb to bring back the biggest kills on hunting jaunts to impress potential mates and depress the competition (other men) and yet we act like this dance isn't still going on. LOL.

 

My ex said the same thing that yours did, the jealous husband question. But I think we don't realize that any response is an ago stroke to these neanderthals. If I said yes, he'd tell me I made a poor choice in a spouse. If I said no, he'd tell me I made a poor choice in a spouse. So, what he was really going for was if I was willing to keep my feelings for him a secret from my spouse. Its like he thought he had some sort of strange power over me that my spouse didn't have and would be jealous about when/if he ever found out.

 

They aren't after yes or no, I'm convinced. LOL

[OWoman]

OW, I want to say this in a completely non accusatory way...but without the benefit of face to face conversation - it almost cant be done with the written word.

 

Your last post, going into such detail about your H's ex....it sounds like in your head , you are still justifying , still competing.

 

I mean, I'm sure all of her flaws you listed are true, but at this point to have such criticisms on the tip of your tongue....you sounded venomous to be honest.

 

I would think you would have come to some sort of contentment by now and you do sound thrilled with your marriage...but still spiteful. Still justifying.

 

Is it because you have to defend your position frequently here on LS?

I just don't get it.

 

Anywho- I have wanted to ask you: How long was your A with now H going on before his wife became aware of it? How long after that was he able to Divorce?

 

2sure - it wasn't intended as comparison (or competition) - I think that's a pretty short-sighted perspective to hold in a R as there'll always be someone prettier, smarter, more fun, etc than one is oneself. It was merely a response triggered by Taylor's post about "unmet needs", and how aspects of someone (in this case, me - but by listing it as factors I'm guessing that ANYONE with those factors could have filled the gap!) that tick those empty boxes can then make for a (seemingly) better fit.

 

It does of course raise the possibility that other boxes remain or become unticked - and of course the subsequent possibility of another someone arriving who does tick those boxes.

 

But my point was about needs, unmet or otherwise - in oneself and a (potential or actual) partner - if one is aware of it, and seeks to address it either in the R or in oneself, as opposed to it being a great gulf which leaves one vulnerable to having it met from outside (possibly in some unhealthy way).

 

It was a general point, albeit illustrated with a personal example - simply because that was closests after Taylor's post made me think in that direction.

[OWoman]

Oops - didn't mean to ignore this:

 

Anywho- I have wanted to ask you: How long was your A with now H going on before his wife became aware of it? How long after that was he able to Divorce?

 

TBH I don't honestly recall! That all feels so very very long ago, I'm not sure of the timelines. There may be some old threads here on LS, but I'd have to check. I can't recall off the top of my head... The D took about a year to finalise after he left, IIRC?

[Mimolicious]

 

We could turn it around and judge you! Why did YOU have to pick the good looking guy when you're so average? Why did you have to get the guy with the great career when you barely made it through college? Why do you get to enjoy his family's success when you come from a blue-collar family? Why do you think you get to have all that and "let yourself go"? Why do you get to stop fulfilling his sexual appetite just because you carried his children? Why do you think you deserve to keep him and do you honestly think he would be faithful to you or did you just love him so much you were blind to the fact that he might just want to trade up somewhere down the line?

 

.

 

 

UNFRICKINGREAL! "Why did YOU pick the good looking guy when you're so average?"- ask the "good looking guy" why he picked an "average" chick.

I can't... LS will end up kicking me out these forums. I can't... lol!

[herenow]

We could turn it around and judge you! Why did YOU have to pick the good looking guy when you're so average? Why did you have to get the guy with the great career when you barely made it through college? Why do you get to enjoy his family's success when you come from a blue-collar family? Why do you think you get to have all that and "let yourself go"? Why do you get to stop fulfilling his sexual appetite just because you carried his children? Why do you think you deserve to keep him and do you honestly think he would be faithful to you or did you just love him so much you were blind to the fact that he might just want to trade up somewhere down the line?

 

I'm not trying to be rude, I just think that alot of us got married in our 20's to the person we were with at the time in our lives when we thought we should be married. Society put that on us. 50% of marriages end in divorce so I've heard. Why be so dramatic like it's the end of the world? Life goes on. There's lots of men out there. Go find another one when someone takes yours away.

 

Well, as a BW I told my H he had my full consent to go be with the OW and he wouldn't go. I really tried , but he just insisted on staying. I even made him move out and he still wouldn't go be with the OW. She begged for him to be with her and he still wouldn't do it. What more could I do?

 

I guess my average self was still a better option. Go figure.

[taylor]

So' date=' what he was really going for was if I was willing to keep my feelings for him a secret from my spouse. Its like he thought he had some sort of strange power over me that my spouse didn't have and would be jealous about when/if he ever found out.They aren't after yes or no, I'm convinced. LOL[/quote']

 

This makes so much sense to me, NoIDidn't.

 

You know, my OM was like 20 steps ahead of me in terms of thinking about having an affair...and I didn't even realize it.

 

I was so caught up in the "romance" part of it..the compliments, the loving gestures, the flirtations..I wasn't even thinking about how to "hide" and "cover up" the whole thing. I wasn't thinking deception, lies, covert operation. But I guess he was.

 

When he asked about the jealous husband, I just took it as another compliment..like..your husband would be jealous if he knew I liked you...

 

It never crossed my mind that he was really fishing to find out if I was going to keep things under wraps...BUT IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!

 

You know, my EA ended 9 days after this conversation. I lost my job.

 

We continued to text a few times afterwards. He told me he didn't want to say goodbye..didn't want to lose me...how much he missed me. I told him how much I cared about him. He said again he didn't want to lose me. Wanted us to get together. Wanted to call me and talk on the phone.

 

But the minute I told him my husband had suspicions that I had some kind of a boyfriend...HE WAS GONE!!! Didn't even stop long enough to say goodbye! Was like he dropped off the face of the earth.

 

For a long time I wondered what exactly made him do the abrupt about face. I really didn't put it altogether right away. Like an idiot, I kept beating myself up, wondering what I did to turn him off..what was there about me that made him change his mind. Did I scare him off by admitting feelings or did he lose interest because we no longer worked together...

 

NO, it was because my husband found out..the jealous husband was on to him. THAT made him turn tail and RUN!!!

 

You don't know the agony I went thru wondering what in the world I said or did to turn him off...all the why's...why didn't he want me anymore....I beat myself up over it all...and then it hit me...long after the "fog" lifted...that it had nothing to do with ME and everything to do with my HUSBAND.

 

I was so stupid and naive.

[NoIDidn't]

NO, it was because my husband found out..the jealous husband was on to him. THAT made him turn tail and RUN!!!

 

 

Interesting you say this. I didn't know my husband was having an EA when an old ex started calling me to tell me how much he still loved and missed me and would treat me better than my H.

 

When I told him that I was considering leaving my H, he assumed that it was for him and started trying to backtrack what he was saying. He was floored when I told him that I would love to see him occasionally but if I was leaving it was for me.

 

They only seem interested as long as they think they are hearing how much better they are than the betrayed spouse.

 

I'm convinced of this too.

[MizzBlue72]

OK - here is my take:

 

1. Did I think that the MM I was seeing would be faithful to me if not faithful toi his wife?? HELL no. I knew this from the very beginning.

 

2. Was my marriage over emotionally before becoming involved with a MM? YES. Was his? NO. I left the marriage 4 years prior to ever stepping outside my marriage. He has chosen NOT to divorce ... but will probably cheat again since the needs that he needed filled (emptiness, lonliness, etc. we have all heard this) are still not being addressed.

 

3. Did I EVER believe he would leave his wife for me? NO. THAT is the only thing I knew with certainty and did not have to ask him. He was very into money and financial security. IF he left - she would get half, and he wouldn't do it. Do I beleive that?? NOOO. But - it is what it is.

 

And it is funny -

He did not want to end the affair, EVEN when I was divorced, and he stated that he knows that this is not fair to me. The pathetic part is?? I just stuck around ... picking up the crumbs ... waiting for him to call ....

 

I won't lie - I still miss him, but I can guarantee, like many have said in this forum, that if I asked him to leave his wife for me and tell him I loved him - he would run SOOO fast that all he would leave is a blur~~!

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

I only wear my tin foil hat when I'm pms'ing, having a pity party with a glass of wine in my hand. Sorry my wording was not quite how I intended. I sounded very bitter.

 

As far as my ultimatum as one poster called it, I made a decision within myself, and shared it with my MM, He asked where I wanted to be in one year, in five years. My answer for one year was I wanted him all to myself. He promised he would make a decision by the end of summer though.

 

The factors? No, he is not high profile, but I do report to him at work. We work closely together, and have been close for several years, only physical for a year, and stopped denying our true feelings a few months ago.

 

He is more than ten years younger than me. One decision he must make is whether he wants to be a father some day. I can't have any more kids and he knows this, which is why he needs to make this decision. Really, that's the only deciding factor but there is no rush because of the work thing.

 

Personally I think he needs to work on his marriage if he wants to have kids with his wife, or leave her and find someone he loves the way he loves me. He figures if he decides to have kids, it would be with her, oh well. But, she did make a comment to him that she wants a kid from him using in-vitro and then he can leave. That made him feel real good.

[taylor]

Interesting you say this. I didn't know my husband was having an EA when an old ex started calling me to tell me how much he still loved and missed me and would treat me better than my H.

When I told him that I was considering leaving my H, he assumed that it was for him and started trying to backtrack what he was saying. He was floored when I told him that I would love to see him occasionally but if I was leaving it was for me.

They only seem interested as long as they think they are hearing how much better they are than the betrayed spouse.

I'm convinced of this too.

 

There is so much fantasy to affairs.

 

Sounds like reality hit when you told your ex your thoughts about leaving your husband. It got too "real" for him.

 

I know I over-analyzed the end of my affair for months. It haunted me. I couldn't put it to rest. It was a topic of great discussion in counseling. I couldn't move past it until I could find peace with it.

 

It hurt too much to think he bailed because I expressed feelings for him..feelings he didn't want to hear or deal with.

 

It was easier to accept the notion that he bailed when he learned my husband had suspicions.

 

I never told him directly that I was in love with him. I told him he touched my heart and that I cared for him. But he knew. He could see it in my eyes.

 

The next day he told me he wanted to see me, call me, didn't want to say goodbye. He asked, "Can I call you at home or will there be trouble with your husband."

 

I told him, "Yes, there might be trouble. My husband has suspicions."

 

Then he asked, "Does your husband think you are in love with someone?" (a very loaded question!)

 

I responded, "Something like that." (The truth of the matter was my husband had just questioned me 4 days prior about my relationship with the OM, with suspicions that I had developed some feelings but I did not share all these details with the OM.)

 

THe OM then told me he wanted to send me a letter telling me how he felt, told me to be patient..that he had so much he wanted to say to me, and that he would call me the next day.

 

And that was the last I heard from him...like he dropped off the face of the earth. I waited for a letter that never came. I waited for a phone call that never came.

 

So, it's hard for me to know for sure if he disappeared because my husband had suspicions or because he realized I was in love with him and he didn't want to deal with it. The latter, of course, hurts most.

 

It's also possible he got scared thinking I told my husband I was in love with him. This of course was not true, as I denied any true feelings for the OM to my husband in the name of "friendship." But I could see where he might have gathered that from our brief conversation.

 

But, in the end, it really doesn't matter. I guess the real reason he bailed was it all just got too real for him....just like for your ex.

 

I apologize for carrying on like this and for the T/J. I never really opened up about this very painful part of the affair. (Isn't the end always the most painful part?). Just want to thank you, NoIDidn't, for listening.

[NoIDidn't]

I apologize for carrying on like this and for the T/J. I never really opened up about this very painful part of the affair. (Isn't the end always the most painful part?). Just want to thank you, NoIDidn't, for listening.

 

Oh no, taylor, no need to apologize. Sometimes these things come out at the strangest times. And maybe, this is what you needed at this time. So no need to apologize. I understand.