NoIDidn't Posted April 22, 2009 Posted April 22, 2009 I don't know where to put this, so I decided its related to Infidelity and put it here. If it needs to be moved to a more appropriate forum, that's fine too. Here goes. With the exception of HAL, and even he didn't put out a thread saying it only: Why don't the WS/MP that marry their OPs ever post that they've done it like the OPs do over in the other forum? Is it because they believe it inappropriate given how that marriage came about? Or, is it just not important to them to announce it to others? Or, is it because they know on some level that no one is really going to congratulate them if they knew about the infidelity that led to that marriage? Just curious. Anyone other than HAL marry their OP?
Lizzie60 Posted April 22, 2009 Posted April 22, 2009 I didn't marry but when he moved in with me.. we had been in the A for 11 years.. then we lived for 18 years.. so IMO..it's just as good as a marriage.. Yes, most people knew (or eventually found out) that we had an A prior to our common-law relationship... We rarely spoke about it.. not because it made us uncomfortable.. but we thought it was no one's business... I was very well 'integrated' in his family eventhough they all kept contact with his ex.. She was a very good person.. and an amazing mother to his daughters... we even hung out together after maybe 10 years or so.. she was remarried.. she often invited me/us to various gatherings..
Author NoIDidn't Posted April 22, 2009 Author Posted April 22, 2009 ... We rarely spoke about it.. not because it made us uncomfortable.. but we thought it was no one's business... .. Thanks for this. I am looking for the reasons that the WS has for not announcing to the world their new marriage like the OPs usually do. This is added to the list.
TOWinNYC Posted April 22, 2009 Posted April 22, 2009 Is it because they believe it inappropriate given how that marriage came about? Or' date=' is it just not important to them to announce it to others? Or, is it because they know on some level that no one is really going to congratulate them if they knew about the infidelity that led to that marriage?[/quote'] I don't know if it's because it's "inappropriate" per se, but societal rules dictate (and are ingrained in most people's minds) that A's are "bad" - and NO ONE likes to be judged at a time when they are happy. People prefer not to be judged on such a personal matter especially when the other people don't know all the circumstances of the situation. It's unfortunate but sometimes two people really ARE meant to be together, no matter how the R may have come about. When someone gets divorced and remarried within a short period of time - say within a year - it's always suspect. And most likely you'll hear a version of the truth (ie. we had dated in college and reconnected) but not the REAL truth (ie. we dated in college, never lost touch, saw each other occasionally, one or the other got married but we still never lost touch, it turned into an A and ultimately we decided WE were meant to be together).
OWoman Posted April 22, 2009 Posted April 22, 2009 Why don't the WS/MP that marry their OPs ever post that they've done it like the OPs do over in the other forum? I'd guess for a number of reasons: * The number of WS compared to BS and OPs here is quite small. So we're talking a small sample size to start off with. If x% of WS land up with their OPs in a LTR or M (and that % varies from the mythical 3% we see quoted out of context all the time here to all kids of other thumb sucks - but basically, there's been no research so we just don't know. And, given how few Rs land up as LTRFs / Ms anyway in the general pool of life, chances are it's not the majority of them) then we have only x% of a very small sample here who'd be in a position to do that. * How many posters stick around on LS once their immediate issues have been resolved? I've been on LS for about 18 months, and while there's been a core of longtimers, there have been far many more noobs coming and going. So, of the x% of a very small sample, only a y% of those are likely to have hung around beyond resolving the issue they had on arrival at LS. * Then you have the attack-dog thing. A WS posting on LS typically gets blasted from all sides - BS, OP, other x-but-now-reformed-WSs.... So of course their motivation for sticking around is very low, unless theyr'e truly masochistic, unless their choice is to reform and denounce the evil OP and swear troth and allegiance to their One True Love, the BS, for ever and ever, and ever amen. So of that very very small potential no (y% who stick around of x% of a very small sample to start off with) how many are actually going to open their mouths to say, I did it! I booted the BS and I married the OP and I'm so happy I could sh*t rainbows! Not many, I reckon - most of those survivors would simply bit their tongues and focus on providing the best "objective" advice they could on other people's threads and saying as little about their own situations as they can get away with. So perhaps, after accounting for n-[attack-dog victims] of y% of longer termers of x% who enter LTRs / Ms with their OPs of an originally very small sample.... we're left with HAL as the only survivor? (I wouldn't underestimate the "attack-dog" phenomenon - as someone who's A has crossed the raimbow bridge into M, I can attest to the total downer effect of the hostility here aimed at "success stories". When one is just starting out on a M and it's all new and there are many challenges, and one is suffused with the honeymoon vibe between yourself and your beloved, and the good wishes of all the family and friends and neighbours, the gritty venom and bile that gest spewed at one here can be a real disincentive to return. And while, as an OW, one has a supportive community of friends and well-wishers here, as a WS one would typically not have that, so what on earth would keep such a person here???)
Owl Posted April 22, 2009 Posted April 22, 2009 Owoman, have you noticed that your comments about BS's are about the same level of "bitterness" that your pointing out that many BS's show towards OW/WS? Sorry, but while I get your point about how some posters tend to vent their spleen on WS/OW who are still in an affair, it seems a little hypocritical when your own response shows the same kind of behavior.
OWoman Posted April 22, 2009 Posted April 22, 2009 Owoman, have you noticed that your comments about BS's are about the same level of "bitterness" that your pointing out that many BS's show towards OW/WS? Sorry, but while I get your point about how some posters tend to vent their spleen on WS/OW who are still in an affair, it seems a little hypocritical when your own response shows the same kind of behavior. Hypocritical would be if I was complaining about someone doing something, while doing the same thing myself. If you're referring to my earlier post on this thread, I was responding to NID's OP about why more xWSs don't post, as HAL did, stating that they married their fAP. I was giving my take on the "why", that's all. And since there clearly are MANY BSs still on LS, I'm clearly NOT doing what I referred to others doing, ie chasing [WSs] away with hostile posts. How many BSs have I chased away that you know of, Owl? I'm honestly not aware of any, but if you have information to the contrary I'd be interested to hear it. (I'm not disputing that some of my posts are sometimes bitter toward some BSs. Some of my posts are also harsh to some OWs, and no doubt I've had some rough things to say to some CSs too somewhere along the line. I don't pretend to be Ms Nice - that wouldn't work in my professional or my political life, and it certainly wouldn't work in my personal and social life, so why would I fake it in my online life?)
Author NoIDidn't Posted April 26, 2009 Author Posted April 26, 2009 I'd guess for a number of reasons: * The number of WS compared to BS and OPs here is quite small. So we're talking a small sample size to start off with. If x% of WS land up with their OPs in a LTR or M (and that % varies from the mythical 3% we see quoted out of context all the time here to all kids of other thumb sucks - but basically, there's been no research so we just don't know. And, given how few Rs land up as LTRFs / Ms anyway in the general pool of life, chances are it's not the majority of them) then we have only x% of a very small sample here who'd be in a position to do that. * How many posters stick around on LS once their immediate issues have been resolved? I've been on LS for about 18 months, and while there's been a core of longtimers, there have been far many more noobs coming and going. So, of the x% of a very small sample, only a y% of those are likely to have hung around beyond resolving the issue they had on arrival at LS. * Then you have the attack-dog thing. A WS posting on LS typically gets blasted from all sides - BS, OP, other x-but-now-reformed-WSs.... So of course their motivation for sticking around is very low, unless theyr'e truly masochistic, unless their choice is to reform and denounce the evil OP and swear troth and allegiance to their One True Love, the BS, for ever and ever, and ever amen. So of that very very small potential no (y% who stick around of x% of a very small sample to start off with) how many are actually going to open their mouths to say, I did it! I booted the BS and I married the OP and I'm so happy I could sh*t rainbows! Not many, I reckon - most of those survivors would simply bit their tongues and focus on providing the best "objective" advice they could on other people's threads and saying as little about their own situations as they can get away with. So perhaps, after accounting for n-[attack-dog victims] of y% of longer termers of x% who enter LTRs / Ms with their OPs of an originally very small sample.... we're left with HAL as the only survivor? (I wouldn't underestimate the "attack-dog" phenomenon - as someone who's A has crossed the raimbow bridge into M, I can attest to the total downer effect of the hostility here aimed at "success stories". When one is just starting out on a M and it's all new and there are many challenges, and one is suffused with the honeymoon vibe between yourself and your beloved, and the good wishes of all the family and friends and neighbours, the gritty venom and bile that gest spewed at one here can be a real disincentive to return. And while, as an OW, one has a supportive community of friends and well-wishers here, as a WS one would typically not have that, so what on earth would keep such a person here???) I dunno. I don't see this as a good enough reason to not make the happy announcement. If I was the OP and my new H was afraid that some anonymous poster was going to be disapproving and say so, I'd wonder where his backbone went. But I do get your point. Thanks. I'll certainly add THIS to the list. I just didn't think that the negatives would outweigh wanting to share the announcement as the OPs get enough people that aren't happy for them in their threads as well. KWIM? Oh well, I guess.
Author NoIDidn't Posted April 26, 2009 Author Posted April 26, 2009 Owoman, have you noticed that your comments about BS's are about the same level of "bitterness" that your pointing out that many BS's show towards OW/WS? Sorry, but while I get your point about how some posters tend to vent their spleen on WS/OW who are still in an affair, it seems a little hypocritical when your own response shows the same kind of behavior. I didn't detect any bitterness, Owl. I think she just answered the question. This time.
HappyAtLast Posted April 29, 2009 Posted April 29, 2009 For starters, I am embarrassed to admit that, when I married my affair partner, the internet did not exist, hence there were not such message boards on which to announce my news. I suppose that if we "pretend" that my affair happened in modern day, I still would not START a post that I had married my woman, but I would probably mention it it if were relevant on another's post. Does that mean I am ashamed of my marriage? No. Being an adult, I understand that because my marriage was born of an affair, there would be folks that wished me ill will. However, if you are man enough to enter into an affair, you need to be able to deal with the consequences, I believe.
Author NoIDidn't Posted April 29, 2009 Author Posted April 29, 2009 LOL, I wouldn't say anything bad about you HAL. And I certainly appreciate your stance on being man enough to face the consequences (negative opinions of others) of ones actions. So many marriages nowadays are birthed from affairs. Its rare to have a man admit to it, though. Women will with their friends, but not usually men. Interesting differences to note.
HappyAtLast Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 I have been contemplating this (whilst cleaning the wall of the mashed potatoes that my wife's small parrots slung.... I believe they had a food fight while I was here in my office. Or, maybe they just don't like my cooking). I think that the reason for the differences in the way that MM vs OW vocalize about their affairs is, for one, I don't think there are very many MM on these boards. But, I think more importantly is the fact that the married man is often perceived by the OW as the one with all of the power. He can stay in his marriage or leave, but he ultimately is the one that makes the decision. And, most often, as I am sure we will all admit, the man makes the decision to stay in his marriage. That being said, on the rare occasion that the man does leave, the OW now gets "elevated" (for lack of a better word) in status to that of girl friend or wife which puts her in a very "special" category, hence the desire to announce it. Just some random thoughts, obviously I don't really know how women think.
Author NoIDidn't Posted April 30, 2009 Author Posted April 30, 2009 That being said, on the rare occasion that the man does leave, the OW now gets "elevated" (for lack of a better word) in status to that of girl friend or wife which puts her in a very "special" category, hence the desire to announce it. Just some random thoughts, obviously I don't really know how women think. This made me LOL for real. It made me think men don't announce it because they don't feel anything *special* about being elevated to legal committed status. LOL A new one for the list!
HappyAtLast Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 Now that is not what I meant at all!! I hope you know that . I meant the elevated status of being one of the rare few for whom a man left his marriage. When the man does not leave, it had nothing to do with the OW. When he does, it had EVERYTHING to do with her. Get what I am saying. Or did you get it all along and are just being funny and I am not quick enough to catch on?? I AM old, you know. Go easy. edited: just so I am clear, I believe those are the thoughts of the woman, they are not my thoughts.
OWoman Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 When the man does not leave, it had nothing to do with the OW. When he does, it had EVERYTHING to do with her. As one of the OWs in the category under discussion, I feel obliged to speak up here. I certainly don't feel that my H leaving his M had "everything to do with" me. It would be disengenuous to claim that it had NOTHING to do with me - had the A not happened, a harsh light would not have been shone on his M to the same extent, and things may well have panned out differently. But his decision to leave was the result of a great deal of reflection, counselling, advice from family and friends and sober observation. It was what he deemed would be best for himself and his kids. It was what he needed to do to prevent a future that had become too horrifying to contemplate. He left to make the angels happy, to further world peace, to let the sun shine and to bring joy and love to the children. Having left, his decision to marry me did probably have a lot to do with me but I think it had a lot to do with him, too - with his needs and desires and those he understood or perceived to be his kids', and the extent to which our R met those. If he'd stayed, how much would it have had to do with me? About the same as his leaving, I guess. Hard to say, hypothetically.
Author NoIDidn't Posted April 30, 2009 Author Posted April 30, 2009 Now that is not what I meant at all!! I hope you know that . I meant the elevated status of being one of the rare few for whom a man left his marriage. When the man does not leave, it had nothing to do with the OW. When he does, it had EVERYTHING to do with her. Get what I am saying. Or did you get it all along and are just being funny and I am not quick enough to catch on?? I AM old, you know. Go easy. edited: just so I am clear, I believe those are the thoughts of the woman, they are not my thoughts. Yeah, I know you didn't mean that. Its just the first thing that came to mind. LOL, your thoughts about the thoughts of women! Thanks, HAL!
HappyAtLast Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 OWoman - Your posts are just so... long. You can protest all that you wish, but I believe, by many of your posts, that your feel somewhat "above" the other OW posters on this board because you now have the title of wife.
Author NoIDidn't Posted April 30, 2009 Author Posted April 30, 2009 OWoman - Your posts are just so... long. You can protest all that you wish, but I believe, by many of your posts, that your feel somewhat "above" the other OW posters on this board because you now have the title of wife. Leave OWoman alone. LOL. She isn't the only OW-turned-W that now has words of wisdom for the lowly betrayed or just plain OW. She just posts more.
OWoman Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 OWoman - Your posts are just so... long. You can protest all that you wish, but I believe, by many of your posts, that your feel somewhat "above" the other OW posters on this board because you now have the title of wife. It wasn't a title I wanted, so it's no victory to me. It's a bureaucratic necessity. I don't feel "above" other OWs - and certainly not because I married my H. the tone of my posts has been consistent since I started posting here. I DO feel that some OWs choose to cede their power - the OW position is potentially a VERY powerful position - and then complain about their pain and misery while denying the power that they have to change things. So if you detect frustration in those posts, you'd be correct
SidLyon Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 I DO feel that some OWs choose to cede their power - the OW position is potentially a VERY powerful position - and then complain about their pain and misery while denying the power that they have to change things. So if you detect frustration in those posts, you'd be correct I don't even know what this means - what is this power of which you speak? Are you speaking of the power to seduce a man away from his wife? If not, what exactly do you mean? S
OWoman Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 I don't even know what this means - what is this power of which you speak? Are you speaking of the power to seduce a man away from his wife? If not, what exactly do you mean? S Sid I was speaking structurally, in terms of the relationship dynamic. Many OWs feel powerless in the A - that the MM chooses when and if to see them, and for how long, and under what conditions. That they just have to wait around on him and be grateful for what "crumbs" of time and attention he tosses their way. That they have no control over anything - whether he will stay with his W or leave, whether he will end the A tomorrow or continue it just as it is forever or whether he will arrive with signed D papers tomorrow and a ring. And, if you view it like that, it does sound pretty disempowering, and you can't help but wonder why someone signs up for that and puts up with that. But my experience as an OW was very different. I had far more control than in any other kind of R I'd had - my time was my own, and I could summon a MM when I felt like it (and because I had a number "on call", they knew that if they didn't come when summoned, someone else would - so they made damn sure to be there!) and dismiss them when I wanted to be alone. I didn't have someone in my face making demands on me - when we were together, it was all sunshine and light, because they had Ws at home to take care of the emotional laundry. I could call the shots in every way, and I was in total control not only of my life but of the R too. I found it enormously powerful. But that was because I'd negotiated those terms upfront - stated what my expectations in the R were, and the conditions under which I was prepared to engage, so I had that power. Many - if not most - OWs seem to go into an A and just accept whatever they are offered as "the way it's going to be" - and then they feel unhappy later with their lot and complain that it isn't different. It isn't different because that is what they chose to accept - and choose to continue accepting. They could stand up to the MM and say, "this isn't working for me and I want it this .... way, else I'll have to get my needs met elsewhere" - and take back that power - but too many are scared the MM will simply walk away from that and they feel that anything is better than nothing. To me it's not. If your needs are not being met, then any investment you're making is a waste - rather invest where you'll get some (or sufficient) return. It's the same in any R - you get what you settle for. But the A has the potential to place so much power in the OWs hands, and so many OWs choose to place themselves in such powerless positions, and then complain that they have no power. And that is what I find frustrating - if it's not working for you (whatever "it" is) then walk away! Or, if you choose to stay, then admit that it's a choice you're making freely of your own volition and don't grumble about it. You've chosen it - deal with the consequences of your actions. Sorry - I'll put my hobby-horse away again now...
jj33 Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 lets face it, its a social taboo. Its one thing to mention it on LS but another to tell the world unless like OWoman you are a public part of the person's life before the MP separates. Not saying anyone else should be embarrassed, every circumstance is different but it would be highly frowned upon by people I know. If xMM and I had married I am quite sure we would not have publicized the fact that the relationship started before he was separated. We would have claimed to have been good friends.
SidLyon Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 Sid I was speaking structurally, in terms of the relationship dynamic. Many OWs feel powerless in the A - that the MM chooses when and if to see them, and for how long, and under what conditions. That they just have to wait around on him and be grateful for what "crumbs" of time and attention he tosses their way. That they have no control over anything - whether he will stay with his W or leave, whether he will end the A tomorrow or continue it just as it is forever or whether he will arrive with signed D papers tomorrow and a ring. And, if you view it like that, it does sound pretty disempowering, and you can't help but wonder why someone signs up for that and puts up with that. But my experience as an OW was very different. I had far more control than in any other kind of R I'd had - my time was my own, and I could summon a MM when I felt like it (and because I had a number "on call", they knew that if they didn't come when summoned, someone else would - so they made damn sure to be there!) and dismiss them when I wanted to be alone. I didn't have someone in my face making demands on me - when we were together, it was all sunshine and light, because they had Ws at home to take care of the emotional laundry. I could call the shots in every way, and I was in total control not only of my life but of the R too. I found it enormously powerful. But that was because I'd negotiated those terms upfront - stated what my expectations in the R were, and the conditions under which I was prepared to engage, so I had that power. Many - if not most - OWs seem to go into an A and just accept whatever they are offered as "the way it's going to be" - and then they feel unhappy later with their lot and complain that it isn't different. It isn't different because that is what they chose to accept - and choose to continue accepting. They could stand up to the MM and say, "this isn't working for me and I want it this .... way, else I'll have to get my needs met elsewhere" - and take back that power - but too many are scared the MM will simply walk away from that and they feel that anything is better than nothing. To me it's not. If your needs are not being met, then any investment you're making is a waste - rather invest where you'll get some (or sufficient) return. It's the same in any R - you get what you settle for. But the A has the potential to place so much power in the OWs hands, and so many OWs choose to place themselves in such powerless positions, and then complain that they have no power. And that is what I find frustrating - if it's not working for you (whatever "it" is) then walk away! Or, if you choose to stay, then admit that it's a choice you're making freely of your own volition and don't grumble about it. You've chosen it - deal with the consequences of your actions. Sorry - I'll put my hobby-horse away again now... Well thanks for answering. It all sounds very predatory and manipulative to me - nothing resembling the "true love" that so many OW like to believe in. However if both the MM and the OW are in it just for the sex then whatever floats your boat I guess. S
Author NoIDidn't Posted May 1, 2009 Author Posted May 1, 2009 I am not going to quote that extra long post of OWoman's, but I do agree that the OW doesn't know the power that she has. Zero over the MM. None of us can make a person do a thing based on some power we think we have. But 100% over herself and her actions. Most OPs cry into their beers when their married lover is not around. They don't see themselves as worthy enough for the married partner to sneak out to see them more often or once again. They wonder why they keep going "home" to a marriage that makes them unhappy. And most OPs make themselves miserable doing this. And they stop living. And start to believe that they are powerless. That they have no value to the MP. What I think OWoman is really talking about, and yes, I'm putting words into her mouth (so to speak, LOL), is self-value. OWoman has not minced words about her predatory nature, but I'm not talking about predators. Just normal people who get involved with MPs and then realize that they deserve more and either demand it or walk away knowing they can't get it as long as the MP is still, well, married.
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