soserious1 Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 What bothered me most about my ex's behaviors wasn't so much the physical act of infidelity. It was the constant gas lighting, good lord, over the course of a couple years my hair was every color under the sun, I followed a punishing diet and exercise routine that he designed and oversaw..only to have him then pronounce that I was "straight up and down, a stick figure, no curves, a total turn off sexually" next he proceeded to play it off as if I was crazy, he wasn't downloading and viewing reams of porn, he wasn't sitting on his arse cruising craig's list while I worked to support us, I was a paranoid psycho, then he played his final card.. I was too old to be wanting sex, my desires were "unnatural" "disgusting" and I was a filthy old pig, an embarrassment to him. Years of being lied to, blamed being made to feel like there was something huge wrong with me and that my perceptions were crazy and wrong when he was in fact cheating is what ultimately destroyed the marriage.Granted, I am not a perfect person but after a careful and fearless review of my moral inventory there's nothing I did/ did not do that merited this sort of treatment. My ex's actions totally gutted me.. and what's even more sad is if he'd simply said that he wanted to be with other people and that he wanted a divorce we could have split our assets, gone on about our lives a lot more pleasantly.
OWoman Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 It is univerally accepted by marriage counselors and therapists that infidelity is the most severe form of emotional abuse. That claim is wildly off-base. It is far from universal - being able to find a handful of supporting evidence on Google doesn't make it "universal", it merely sets one up to have even a single case to the contrary disprove the assertion. Just last year - or was it 2007 - there was some woman therapist who was on talk shows all the time, promoting her new book which claimed that WSs were not bad people, just people in bad situations - I heard her speak a number of times and she certainly didn't share your view. My H's counsellor similarly felt that the abuse (REAL abuse!) he suffered at the hands of his xW was far, far worse than any "abuse" he may have inflicted on her by checking out of the M in self-defence and recovering his self-esteem and mental health through an A. The MC they'd (briefly) gone to previously had been appalled at her levels of abusive behaviour - and she regularly counselled couples where one had had an A. Similarly, the counsellor his kids saw for IC regarded the impact of the A on their lives as positive, since it removed them from a very damaging situation (the abuse they'd been exposed to at home). Socially, I know a great many counsellors and therapists - I used to counsell, myself - and none of them seem at all hung-up about As; in fact, several of them have been down that road themselves. So, not remotely universal - whatever you'd prefer to believe.
soserious1 Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 That claim is wildly off-base. It is far from universal - being able to find a handful of supporting evidence on Google doesn't make it "universal", it merely sets one up to have even a single case to the contrary disprove the assertion. Just last year - or was it 2007 - there was some woman therapist who was on talk shows all the time, promoting her new book which claimed that WSs were not bad people, just people in bad situations - I heard her speak a number of times and she certainly didn't share your view. My H's counsellor similarly felt that the abuse (REAL abuse!) he suffered at the hands of his xW was far, far worse than any "abuse" he may have inflicted on her by checking out of the M in self-defence and recovering his self-esteem and mental health through an A. The MC they'd (briefly) gone to previously had been appalled at her levels of abusive behaviour - and she regularly counselled couples where one had had an A. Similarly, the counsellor his kids saw for IC regarded the impact of the A on their lives as positive, since it removed them from a very damaging situation (the abuse they'd been exposed to at home). Socially, I know a great many counsellors and therapists - I used to counsell, myself - and none of them seem at all hung-up about As; in fact, several of them have been down that road themselves. So, not remotely universal - whatever you'd prefer to believe. Many child protective workers have successfully argued in court that one parent's abusive behavior does not excuse the other from their duty to protect their children, an abused spouse is expected to leave no stone unturned to protect the children, including calling police, filing charges, contacting their state's child protective agency, contacting the children's schools, elisting the support of teacher's and daycare workers.Failure to do so is viewed as neglect and is seen as evidence that the non-abusive partner is not fit to parent either. As to affairs, since it's no big deal, no biggie, here's hoping that he has 1,2 or 3 flings while married to you.
Owl Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 Just last year - or was it 2007 - there was some woman therapist who was on talk shows all the time, promoting her new book which claimed that WSs were not bad people, just people in bad situations - I heard her speak a number of times and she certainly didn't share your view. I wouldn't agree with her view, either. Some WS's may well be good people in bad situations...but they are people who make bad choices on how to deal with that situation. Some WS's are simply bad people who intentially make bad choices. The bottom line factor here is that an affair isn't a result of a bad situation...but it is the result of some bad decision making.
bentnotbroken Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 I wouldn't agree with her view, either. Some WS's may well be good people in bad situations...but they are people who make bad choices on how to deal with that situation. Some WS's are simply bad people who intentially make bad choices. The bottom line factor here is that an affair isn't a result of a bad situation...but it is the result of some bad decision making. I wonder is Owoman is talking about Dr. Laura aka Dr. Whora. She has had her own instances of affairs. If it isn't her, I would hate to think there are two of them out there promoting that mess.
silktricks Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 I'm not in any way promoting affairs, but I certainly cannot agree that an affair is the "worst" emotional abuse ever. It could be that a person who engages in an affair is also emotionally abusive, but I don't (personally) believe the two go hand in hand. And in many societies an affair is considered to be "no big deal" - I can't testify to the attitudes of the all people who live in the marriage that experiences the affair, though I do have some friends who are French. Their society (according to most of what I have read and according to my friends) does not particularly frown upon affairs. However, when my friend's husband had an affair, that didn't stop her personal pain - which was just as deep as any that I've seen in societies where affairs are considered to be a "big deal".
Reggie Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 Harley, who has 35 years working in the field, says he conducted surveys among people that had gone through either sexual assault or loss of a child and infidelity. He says that , overwhelmingly, these folks were hurt more buy their spouses infidelity. He points out that in the assault situations there was no trust broken and in the child loss situation there was no volitional aspect to the infliction of the loss. He also points out that the good memories are untainted. He has a good, free video posted on his site where he talks about this for about 30 minutes. I have been through sexual assault, as a child and I would agree with him. My assailant was someone I had no trust realtionship with. I trusted my wife and her gaslighting and blameshifting was brutal.
Gamine Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Reading the posts made by those advocating their position as the OW borders on the hysterical. OW know that what they are doing is wrong. It is morally wrong and biblically wrong. We as a society have become so full of ourselves that we believe we can individually set standards of what is 'right' or 'wrong' according to our own benchmarks. However, there are definitive, spiritual rights and wrongs as there are also rights and wrongs handed down in God's word. If one believes in good and evil... heaven and hell... then one should, reasonably, consider going to the life guidebook called the bible. Reading it, understanding it and realizing that these are the rules. Not the rules we determine according to our ever fluctuating personal ideologies, but the rules that will apply to us whether we like them or not. I don't think that God will be handing out gold stars to anyone who builds a life on heartbreak and selfishness. OW who say that they are blameless may be missing the point. Do unto other as you would have them do unto you. I wonder how many of the OW (or former OW now turned into wives) would point to themselves with blame if they were blindsided tomorrow morning with the news that their husband was having an affair? I doubt that the first thing you would do would be to shame yourself with open acknowledgement that you weren't taking care of business. It is utterly absurd to say that two people play a role in infidelity. I won't even buy into the fact that a wife has to have any shortcomings in order for her spouse to stray. Maybe the cheating spouse simply sees things selfishly, or perhaps he/she has personal problems... certainly not something attributable to a marriage. Personally speaking, I wouldn't put much stake into a counselor who couldn't manage to make their own relationship work. Furthermore, I wouldn't take advice from someone who had an affair. Clearly these individuals have issues concerning boundaries and decency. Marriage is something we enter into at will. No one is a prisoner. If things aren't terrific and someone finds themselves without those things they need to be happy in a marriage they can choose to work on it or leave the relationship. An affair shouldn't be confused with a marital aid or as a way to bolster someone enough into leaving a relationship. That isn't fair to the OP or the spouse. If marriages aren't prison sentences, spouses can leave at will. There is no way a successful OW can advocate having an affair as a way to leave when the door has and always was OPEN. An unhappy spouse can use it at any time. An affair is an affair... plain and simple. Furthermore, it is not necessary to hurt a spouse when it is time to move on... doing so acts with indifference and cruelty to someone towards whom and with whom you did share something special with once. integrity, it seems, is something lacking in this gross rationalization regarding affairs. People can end marriages with dignity and respect. Lying and cheating are never the way to venture to anything good true and beautiful.
Reggie Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Well said, Gamine, The rationallizations and justifications are, truly absurd.
silktricks Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 It is utterly absurd to say that two people play a role in infidelity. I won't even buy into the fact that a wife has to have any shortcomings in order for her spouse to stray. Maybe the cheating spouse simply sees things selfishly, or perhaps he/she has personal problems... certainly not something attributable to a marriage. {snip} Marriage is something we enter into at will. No one is a prisoner. If things aren't terrific and someone finds themselves without those things they need to be happy in a marriage they can choose to work on it or leave the relationship. An affair shouldn't be confused with a marital aid or as a way to bolster someone enough into leaving a relationship. That isn't fair to the OP or the spouse. {snip} People can end marriages with dignity and respect. Lying and cheating are never the way to venture to anything good true and beautiful. Thank-you, Gamine. That is basically what I was trying to say, as well. It's not the fault of the betrayed spouse that the wayward spouse has chosen to cheat. For anyone to say that the BS caused (or had a part in) the problems that led to cheating is simply a cop-out most generally used by OW and WS. They may have had a part in the problems of the marriage, but the choice to cheat - and therefore not work on those problems - has nothing to do with the BS. What led to cheating was the failure on the part of the WS to be honest with their spouse, (and of course the willingness of the OP to have a relationship with a married person). A spouse who does not know there are problems - or is not aware of the level of pain their partner is in due to problems - cannot be held responsible for not resolving those problems. If the WS is unable or unwilling to communicate adequately, that isn't the fault of the betrayed spouse.
Dexter Morgan Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Oh now a good question. Because occasionally you can meet someone that is worth discussing these types of topics with. But most times they are a waste of time because they just become a back and forth of nasty comments. The same old same old over and over of raw BS's just wanting to vent on a WS (any WS). No, not "any WS"....but the ones that cheat, don't care about the pain they caused...don't have remorse...felt entitled to cheat...and when the cheating causes the BS to change their ways(just like the WS claims they want) the WS does not reciprocate the change, but rather takes a "my way or the highway" attitude. Sounds familiar...doesn't it? silktricks: I have read what you posted and I gave you an example that debunks your broad brush strokes. You made a blanket statement that is wrong(which now you have kind of changed your tune on). Yes the affair is the WS deal, so what. I never made any statements about that, don't defend cheating either. bull, you defending YOUR cheating to the hills and felt entitled. don't even. To you divorce makes sense to me not so much. Why would I pro-actively give up what I have to chase something that may or may not be out there? hmmm...what do you think would happen if I told a woman of mine, "hey, I'm staying with you just because i don't know if there is anything better for me out there?":o I'd get kicked in the cahones and my stuff thrown out on the lawn. You think most people dump on the BS???? no, just people like you I have seen nothing but support for BS's and how NOTHING was their fault. again, you are one of the exceptions with a small few others. I read nothing but vent after vent about how the WS is a POS and the OM/OW is a trespasser etc... etc... ya....and?? But oh low and behold if a WS stands up to the venting and gives their view time to get out the lynch mob. Not so...just those that felt entitled to cheat, have no remorse and are emotionally abusing their BS's. On your responsibility of the future WS to address the problems. You can see thread after thread of where a BS did NOT respond to anything until an affair happened. Then after the affair they (BS) are all about how to fix things. It only took a gentle 2x4 to get their full attention to address the issues. But then so much damage has been done that nothing may ever get fixed. well we all know this is how you view it and your marriage is a facade. I think your wife needs to quit trying since you clearly are not investing any effort into the M. she also needs to possibly find someone that can give her what she needs. Thats what its all about according to you...right? The more of your posts I read silktricks the more I see you are venting your personal experience. Uh......thats what people do here. use their experience to form their responses.....just like you do.
Dexter Morgan Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 That assumes you have hit deal breakers where you want out totally. Tell you what if I personally got to the point of giving divorce papers there would be no chance for my SO to try to make things right. How is that any different from now? She is trying to make it right now and you won't have any of it. There is nothing your wife can do to make it right in your eyes.
Dexter Morgan Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Because come discovery day it's no longer just about you and what you want, the BS gets a choice on D day and a lot of BS like myself come to and realize that what we have is a lying, scheming gas lighter for a partner and we decide that what we've got in that person is worth less than nothing. Well, I think he gaslighted the hell out of her. She is busting her butt to bow to his emotional extortion, and no matter what she does as a BS to compensate for his reasons for messing around, it will never be good enough. She will be making effort for absolutely nothing. So again, she is being gaslighted, no doubt about it. hence my past emotional abuse remarks.
Dexter Morgan Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Just last year - or was it 2007 - there was some woman therapist who was on talk shows all the time, promoting her new book which claimed that WSs were not bad people, just people in bad situations My guess is this therapist was/is a WS.
NoIDidn't Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Reading the posts made by those advocating their position as the OW borders on the hysterical. OW know that what they are doing is wrong. Not just OWs doing it in this thread, there is also a particularly vocal cheating husband trying to blame his betrayed spouse as well. People can end marriages with dignity and respect. Lying and cheating are never the way to venture to anything good true and beautiful. So true. So true.
OWoman Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Many child protective workers have successfully argued in court that one parent's abusive behavior does not excuse the other from their duty to protect their children, an abused spouse is expected to leave no stone unturned to protect the children, including calling police, filing charges, contacting their state's child protective agency, contacting the children's schools, elisting the support of teacher's and daycare workers.Failure to do so is viewed as neglect and is seen as evidence that the non-abusive partner is not fit to parent either. My H was the recipient of the abuse. There was some emotional / verbal abuse directed at the kids on a couple of occasions when they were younger but H largely managed to shield them from that. He did not consider that witnessing her abusing him was abusive to them - until that came out in counselling. As to affairs, since it's no big deal, no biggie, here's hoping that he has 1,2 or 3 flings while married to you. thanks for your kind wishes. Right back at you! I wonder is Owoman is talking about Dr. Laura aka Dr. Whora. She has had her own instances of affairs. If it isn't her, I would hate to think there are two of them out there promoting that mess. No bent - it wasn't her - I can't recall the woman's name but I had heard of Dr Laura, she was the religious nutcase who told people to live literally by the bible, prompting that email about stoning gay neighbours and enslaving mexicans... It wasn't her. Harley, who has 35 years working in the field, says he conducted surveys among people that had gone through either sexual assault or loss of a child and infidelity. He says that , overwhelmingly, these folks were hurt more buy their spouses infidelity. He points out that in the assault situations there was no trust broken and in the child loss situation there was no volitional aspect to the infliction of the loss. He also points out that the good memories are untainted. He has a good, free video posted on his site where he talks about this for about 30 minutes. I have been through sexual assault, as a child and I would agree with him. My assailant was someone I had no trust realtionship with. I trusted my wife and her gaslighting and blameshifting was brutal. Reggie I'm sorry for your assault. It does help me understand your anger a little better now. On that subject though - I've counselled adult survivors of CSA where the sexual assault HAS involved a trusted other - often a parent, sometimes a teacher or preacher. The damage done is often immeasurable and requires a lot more than counselling to address. Reading the posts made by those advocating their position as the OW borders on the hysterical. OW know that what they are doing is wrong. It is morally wrong and biblically wrong. We as a society have become so full of ourselves that we believe we can individually set standards of what is 'right' or 'wrong' according to our own benchmarks. However, there are definitive, spiritual rights and wrongs as there are also rights and wrongs handed down in God's word. If one believes in good and evil... heaven and hell... then one should, reasonably, consider going to the life guidebook called the bible. Reading it, understanding it and realizing that these are the rules. Not the rules we determine according to our ever fluctuating personal ideologies, but the rules that will apply to us whether we like them or not. I don't think that God will be handing out gold stars to anyone who builds a life on heartbreak and selfishness. Some of us have different (but equally valid, and equally robust) value systems that don't involve sky pixies or afterlives. Thumping religious texts of any kind at us aren't going to resonate because we don't accept their basic underlying premise. My guess is this therapist was/is a WS. No idea Dex - I know very little about her, only what she said on the radio. She claimed in the interview not ever to have had an A or to have been betrayed or to have been an OW; she may not have been honest about that, though given her views I'm not sure why she'd have felt the need to hide it. I tried searching on Amazon using keywords to find the book, but there are just so many out there on the subject! It clearly touches people's lives!
OWoman Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 I'm not in any way promoting affairs, but I certainly cannot agree that an affair is the "worst" emotional abuse ever. It could be that a person who engages in an affair is also emotionally abusive, but I don't (personally) believe the two go hand in hand. And in many societies an affair is considered to be "no big deal" - I can't testify to the attitudes of the all people who live in the marriage that experiences the affair, though I do have some friends who are French. Their society (according to most of what I have read and according to my friends) does not particularly frown upon affairs. However, when my friend's husband had an affair, that didn't stop her personal pain - which was just as deep as any that I've seen in societies where affairs are considered to be a "big deal". I agree with this, Silk - I think what constitutes "worst" emotional abuse varies by the recipient. I've counselled survivors of torture. I've counselled survivors of rape and sexual abuse. I've counselled survivors of domestic violence. I've counselled war vets and survivors of conflict. I've counselled people going through relationship trauma of various kinds (including infidelity). I've counselled survivors of criminal shootings, hijackings, family murders and gang rituals. And the perceptions of "worst" weren't always what you expected. Sometimes someone who'd been subject to horrific torture found the strength to survive it but was haunted by nightmares of their grandfather exposing himself to them as a child. Or a veteran of the most gruesome war atrocities who was gutted when his GF dumped him. Rape survivors still traumatised by the betrayal of a childhood friend. It makes little rational sense to me as an outsider, but for the person experiencing it, the emotional sense it makes is unassailable. Because sexual exclusivity is irrelevant to me, I would not personally feel traumatised by infidelity, anymore than I'd feel gutted if Coronation Street was cancelled. But for someone to whom it matters - whether they knew or acknowledged that before it happened or not - it clearly is a huge thing. So social context is important, sure - but ultimately personal priorities and values are going to determine what really matters, and really hurts.
soserious1 Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 My H was the recipient of the abuse. There was some emotional / verbal abuse directed at the kids on a couple of occasions when they were younger but H largely managed to shield them from that. He did not consider that witnessing her abusing him was abusive to them - until that came out in counselling. thanks for your kind wishes. Right back at you! LOL,first off, I will never marry again, secondly I've come to the conclusion that in situations involving affairs of any significant duration that the problem or character defect rests with the cheater. I would never be so grandiose or foolish to sit there and believe a guy when he tells me I'm somehow special or different than the wife who's trust he betrayed. The only difference imho between an OM/OW and a BS is that the OM/OW just hasn't had the cheater betray them yet.The gal my Ex is living with is by all accounts, a nice woman.. guess what ? so am I, the prize she's won here is a person who's shown really clearly that he's capable of acts of immense cruelty and that his word means nothing. I actually feel sorry for her and just hope that when history repeats itself that she's in a better place to cope with it than I was.
silktricks Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 I agree with this, Silk - I think what constitutes "worst" emotional abuse varies by the recipient. {snip} the perceptions of "worst" weren't always what you expected. {snip} ultimately personal priorities and values are going to determine what really matters, and really hurts. Thanks, OW. I also believe the concept of "worst" completely depends upon the person and the situation at the time. BTW, though I didn't mention it previously, I think you know that I believe your husband's first wife was one of those A-wipes I referred to in an earlier post. That doesn't (in my mind) mean that I approve of the way you two got together, but fortunately, that really doesn't matter at all (my opinion, that is). I'm glad the two of you are happy.
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