To AGreatWife re: "Responsibility, blame and outcome"

[Reggie]

Oh now a good question.

 

Because occasionally you can meet someone that is worth discussing these types of topics with. But most times they are a waste of time because they just become a back and forth of nasty comments. The same old same old over and over of raw BS's just wanting to vent on a WS (any WS).

 

So generally I do not engage in these threads anymore. But in this case had to, because of the great and wide brush strokes that are incorrect about all WS's.

 

 

silktricks:

I have read what you posted and I gave you an example that debunks your broad brush strokes. You made a blanket statement that is wrong(which now you have kind of changed your tune on). Yes the affair is the WS deal, so what. I never made any statements about that, don't defend cheating either.

 

To you divorce makes sense to me not so much. Why would I pro-actively give up what I have to chase something that may or may not be out there? Go back and read my post to Owl on that very subject I wrote down my reasons. They are my PERSONAL reasons, that may or may not apply to another WS.

 

You think most people dump on the BS???? That is far from what I have EVER seen on forums like this. I have seen nothing but support for BS's and how NOTHING was their fault. Sometimes you see a BS that will admit to what they did not respond to pre-affair. I read nothing but vent after vent about how the WS is a POS and the OM/OW is a trespasser etc... etc... But oh low and behold if a WS stands up to the venting and gives their view time to get out the lynch mob.

 

On your responsibility of the future WS to address the problems. You can see thread after thread of where a BS did NOT respond to anything until an affair happened. Then after the affair they (BS) are all about how to fix things. It only took a gentle 2x4 to get their full attention to address the issues. But then so much damage has been done that nothing may ever get fixed.

 

The more of your posts I read silktricks the more I see you are venting your personal experience. Which is fine just leave out the broad brush strokes about how ALL WS's are. Because each of our stories WS/BS are different.

 

I don't think a BS responding to pre A problems is relevant. It has nothing to do with the choice to cheat, IMO. Afairs a gentle 2x4? Why not stick a knife in the Bs thigh. It's less traumatic.

[Reggie]

soserious, it is exactly like excising a cancerous tumor to get a lying, unremorseful WS out. It hurts during recovery. But, these folks are disordered and will send you to an early grave.

[Reggie]

See I look at it differently, than your simple black/white decision process.

 

Way to solve my frustration was to cheat??? No you have that wrong, why because that would imply I was looking for a replacement. I was looking for an escape, totally different concepts that I really don't expect most BS's to understand. Because most of you seem to celebrate the idea of misery and sucking it up for the vows and the promises. Some of you BS's seem to relish the idea of suffering through a marriage just to say you did it.

 

What is insulting for a WS the BS changes BECAUSE of the infidelity. It seems some of you (BS's) will not get moving (too lazy it seems) to do anything until hit with a board on the side of the head. Regardless if the WS has tried for years to get across to you there ARE problems.

 

Again waste of time writing all of this, since most of you will not care.

So, why did you cheat instead of going to counseling (even if only for yourself) or getting a divorce. Divorce is way less traumatizing to the kids and spouse, IMO.

What difference does it make if you were seeking a replacement or an escape? Weren't you devoting enrgy to the affair that could have been devoted to your marriage and family?

[pkn06002]

There it is again.. the self absorbed thinking of a cheater.. why would "I" give up what I have ?

 

Because come discovery day it's no longer just about you and what you want, the BS gets a choice on D day and a lot of BS like myself come to and realize that what we have is a lying, scheming gas lighter for a partner and we decide that what we've got in that person is worth less than nothing.

 

As far as the chasing something that may or not be out there, I'd respectfully submit that you did your chasing while having the affair.

 

As to all the rest, while there may very well be issues/problems in a marriage I have yet to see a spouse that can ignore the words "We either fix this or I want a divorce" when they are clearly and loudly spoken and followed up on with divorce papers, no cheating sledge hammer needed then.

 

Oh yes the final solution of how does Dexter put it, blackmail.

 

That assumes you have hit deal breakers where you want out totally. Tell you what if I personally got to the point of giving divorce papers there would be no chance for my SO to try to make things right.

 

Again most BS's are never willing to see the WS side of the coin, perfectly understandable.

[pkn06002]

just like the years one spends married to a lying, scheming, gas lighting unfaithful spouse.. just a waste of years of time and worth less than nothing.

 

I also cannot neglect to mention the tendency of WS to rewrite the marital history, sometimes editing the script so heavily that the history of events is unrecognizable to the BS or to anyone who is closely aquainted with the couple. I believe there have been stidies dome showing that when relationships are closely looked at in MC, the WS usually perceives they've done a lot more of the giving in the marriage than they actually have.

 

Ah again the broad broad brush.

 

When the MC and even my wifes family have told her she needs to change or we were going to end up divorced. All comments by my wifes family all pre-affair. So hate to disagree with your studies but then again in studies there are always outliers.

[pkn06002]

I don't think a BS responding to pre A problems is relevant. It has nothing to do with the choice to cheat, IMO. Afairs a gentle 2x4? Why not stick a knife in the Bs thigh. It's less traumatic.

 

Of course you want to ignore the pre-affair issues of the BS not responding. Because if you do not acknowledge that fact it ruins your black/white way of looking at the world. Plus it removes some of the claim to be an innocent victim. Then the world becomes shades of gray.

[pkn06002]

So, why did you cheat instead of going to counseling (even if only for yourself) or getting a divorce. Divorce is way less traumatizing to the kids and spouse, IMO.

What difference does it make if you were seeking a replacement or an escape? Weren't you devoting enrgy to the affair that could have been devoted to your marriage and family?

 

Now some good questions here.

 

I never really respected counslers, plus I will add I was very bitter about what was going on.

 

I will differ on the fact that divorce is way less traumatic. Studies do not backup you statement, when it is a low conflict marriage.

 

Energy?? No I never took time away from my family or my marriage to engauge in the affair. Now did I spend emotional resources sure but what is an e-mail here and there and IM during the day, followed by phone calls after work. What spending all of a total of 2 hrs of time that I needed to unwind from the stress of work anyway. Like I said an escape like a hobby.

[Reggie]

I don't mind shades of gray. But, clearly, your decision to cheat on your wife and family is not at all gray. It was wrong and cowardly.

You say BS calim victimhood, but you cling to the notion that you were such a victim you could do nothing other than cheat to address your marital issues. And, now you try to pawn off the idea that your noble cheating was an effort to motivate your wife to make the changes you wanted. That is ludicrous, IMO.

[Reggie]

Now some good questions here.

 

I never really respected counslers, plus I will add I was very bitter about what was going on.

 

I will differ on the fact that divorce is way less traumatic. Studies do not backup you statement, when it is a low conflict marriage.

 

Energy?? No I never took time away from my family or my marriage to engauge in the affair. Now did I spend emotional resources sure but what is an e-mail here and there and IM during the day, followed by phone calls after work. What spending all of a total of 2 hrs of time that I needed to unwind from the stress of work anyway. Like I said an escape like a hobby.

Oh, so you respect the idea of cheating? WTF, cheating was like a hobby? You have this rationalization thing down to a science. Were you cheating with this woman or not?

[pkn06002]

I don't mind shades of gray. But, clearly, your decision to cheat on your wife and family is not at all gray. It was wrong and cowardly.

You say BS calim victimhood, but you cling to the notion that you were such a victim you could do nothing other than cheat to address your marital issues. And, now you try to pawn off the idea that your noble cheating was an effort to motivate your wife to make the changes you wanted. That is ludicrous, IMO.

 

You are reading a lot into my posts Reggie.

 

BS's do claim victim hood matter of fact that is told to them by other BS's. That is a simple thing to see in post after post to new BS's.

 

I do not claim to be a victim at all. My marriage problems are what they are. If you feel I am playing the victim that is not my intention. I am giving my side of the coint.

 

Cowardly???? What so much braver to nuke my family and ruin my child's life because of issues between my wife and I? Tell me how that works in you mind because that does seem to be a BS thought pattern. To me my child's life is priority one, reguardless if I get along with her mother or not.

 

My cheating was NEVER intended as motivation towards my wife. It has had that effect (sometimes) but that was not the motivation.

[pkn06002]

Oh, so you respect the idea of cheating? WTF, cheating was like a hobby? You have this rationalization thing down to a science. Were you cheating with this woman or not?

 

Wow you are reading a lot into my posts. Try asking question instead of making statements.

 

To me the affair was an escape from a lot of stresses that were going on at work and home at the time. Just like a hobby is an escape.

 

You don't like my answers since you doing agree or understand them, not a problem. But I don't condone cheat, I understand the motivations but I don't condone it.

 

See I work more in the gray than you do. Comes with the territory when doing problem solving in the real world where things are NOT black/white. Marriage is not so special that is bends the world into only black/white. Which if you go by the stats is the way the MAJORITY of the world seems to view marriage.

[Reggie]

If you were so terribly concerned about your child's life, you would never have exposed him/her to your cheating.

And, clearly, BSs are victims. It is univerally accepted by marriage counselors and therapists that infidelity is the most severe form of emotional abuse. It damages self esteem, ability to trust, causes depression, PTSD, job losses, all types of damage to the BS. Is there any real debate that infidelity victimizes the BS?

You make it sound like you had no other choices,pkn. WTF, you could have done all types of things to try to fix your marriage.

[Reggie]

Wow you are reading a lot into my posts. Try asking question instead of making statements.

 

To me the affair was an escape from a lot of stresses that were going on at work and home at the time. Just like a hobby is an escape.

 

You don't like my answers since you doing agree or understand them, not a problem. But I don't condone cheat, I understand the motivations but I don't condone it.

 

See I work more in the gray than you do. Comes with the territory when doing problem solving in the real world where things are NOT black/white. Marriage is not so special that is bends the world into only black/white. Which if you go by the stats is the way the MAJORITY of the world seems to view marriage.

 

Okay, here's a question. If you do not condone cheating, why did you cheat instead of using your gray area problem solving skill from the real world to find another solution?

And, why did you hurt your child's mom in this way? Do you think the damage you did to her may filter down to your child? Will the damage affect her ability to parent? Will your child view cheating as a way to address problems based on what you modeled. Will your child think it is okay to lie and break vows?

[pkn06002]

If you were so terribly concerned about your child's life, you would never have exposed him/her to your cheating.

And, clearly, BSs are victims. It is univerally accepted by marriage counselors and therapists that infidelity is the most severe form of emotional abuse. It damages self esteem, ability to trust, causes depression, PTSD, job losses, all types of damage to the BS. Is there any real debate that infidelity victimizes the BS?

You make it sound like you had no other choices,pkn. WTF, you could have done all types of things to try to fix your marriage.

 

My child has never been exposed to my cheating. So that is a non-issue.

 

I did do all types of things short of divorce. Counseling was not an option because as I stated I did not respect the profession, that view has changed. I went through all of what I considered my options.

 

I disagree with the victim hood of the BS, my opinion/situation only. You know why because all of the things you listed above I HAD before I started my affair. Nothing like KNOWING from other woman what you have to offer and to have the one you chose to marry reject those things every other woman like/cherished. Playing the victim gets you no where, but then again maybe that is my up bringing where I was not allowed to be the victim in anything. I had to suck it up and deal with it.

 

I know (now) that cheating was not a good option, we all learn from our mistakes. It is one I will not repeat in the future. If I get to where I was before I will take that end solution you BS's seem so fond of and get a divorce.

 

Reggie you and I will never find common ground so why continue. You really are not interested in my views. You will never get me to see things the way you think a WS should see them.

 

So why continue this conversation?

Like Owl said this is pretty much dead, no use kicking the dead horse more.

[Reggie]

So, you, the non-victim, had PTSD, job loss, etc. due to your wife's rejection? Sounds like victimhood to me.

There is nothing shameful about acknowledging you were victimized. Wallowing in it and not getting help is another matter,pkn.

It boggles my puny, non-problem solving mind, that you chose cheating vs counseling because you had no respect for the profession. That is unbelievable and if true, really sad. Are you saying that you never even broached the possibility of getting marriage counseling to address the marital problems before you decided to cheat? That is just un f'ing believable. A big time gray area thinker like yourself and counseling is anathema to you?

[pkn06002]

So, you, the non-victim, had PTSD, job loss, etc. due to your wife's rejection? Sounds like victimhood to me.

There is nothing shameful about acknowledging you were victimized. Wallowing in it and not getting help is another matter,pkn.

It boggles my puny, non-problem solving mind, that you chose cheating vs counseling because you had no respect for the profession. That is unbelievable and if true, really sad. Are you saying that you never even broached the possibility of getting marriage counseling to address the marital problems before you decided to cheat? That is just un f'ing believable. A big time gray area thinker like yourself and counseling is anathema to you?

 

Ah when you see your parents go through counseling and it does no good what do you think the impression is of the profession?

 

Hearing for years how your mom's friend is a MC and she has had 3 divorces, oh yeah great impression there also.

 

Tell me Reggie did you and your ex's ever do counseling before they cheated? Or where they just not clear enough that there were problems.

 

Victim hood servers no purpose, again my opinion only. In the case of infidelity it freezes people in place. Yes you see people wallowing in it all the time, lashing out right and left using the reasoning of victim hood to justify there actions. Better (to me) to make a list of the + and - and see if the marriage is worth working on.

 

Let me add one thing to my posts now. When I first came here I was all emotional after the fall out from the affair. That emotional pkn is gone replaced by a very unemotional person. So yes I sound very cold and calculating that is just my backlash response to emotional issues.

[tami-chan]

If you were so terribly concerned about your child's life, you would never have exposed him/her to your cheating.

And, clearly, BSs are victims. It is univerally accepted by marriage counselors and therapists that infidelity is the most severe form of emotional abuse. It damages self esteem, ability to trust, causes depression, PTSD, job losses, all types of damage to the BS. Is there any real debate that infidelity victimizes the BS?

You make it sound like you had no other choices,pkn. WTF, you could have done all types of things to try to fix your marriage.

 

I do not know about UNIVERSAL, I can't seem to find a study that supports that. I read one though that said, "silent treatment" is the worst kind of emotional abuse, so unless the cheating came with "silent treatment" and WS is indifferent to the BS...a blanket statement like this is misleading. Many WS try very hard not to be cruel to their BSs. I have read many stories here where the Ws is more attentive and more generous, etc, perhaps out of guilt, or perhaps to assure the BS in a convoluted way that she/he is still loved.

 

In the book "Managing Infidelity: A Cross Cultural Perspective" it mentions that women in many societies are relatively indifferent to their husband's infidelity (I find that hard to believe but whatever) but it is an entirely different story for a man if his wife cheats on him. I guess it is more difficult and probably more emotionally damaging for a man to be cheated on because it is a reflection of his inability to and/or losing "control" over his life/family/marriage.

[Reggie]

My first wife was very big on counseling and we tried it. Unfortunately, she also had an IC and she had an affair with him, among others. At thepoint she began the affair with her therapist, she refused marital counseling.

In my second marriage, my wife , much like how you felt, thought counseling was totally bogus and would not consider it. I was expieriencing all the things you describe, rejection, hoplessness etc. It may have even been worse, I do not know, as it was incrdeible abuse.

So, I sought therapy , myself and soon figured out I was deling with a personality disordered wife.

I will accept that your folks history and what you saw may have made you skeptical of the profession.

But, you must know that in any profession there will be bad apples. And, the MC that was thrice married may have been an excellent therapist. Who knows why her marriages failed. Best Oncolgist i know smoked Phillip Morris Commandos.

It just seems unbelievable to me that you would not have figured out that what your folks went through was not representative of the field as a whole. Thinking like that is contrary to the claim that you are not a black and white thinker. If you can problem solve and see shades of gray, surely you have the candlepower to know this. It just does noot ring true that you had such an aversion to counseling thatyou were unwilling to try it. What was the downside to at least trying it?

[Reggie]

I do not know about UNIVERSAL, I can't seem to find a study that supports that. I read one though that said, "silent treatment" is the worst kind of emotional abuse, so unless the cheating came with "silent treatment" and WS is indifferent to the BS...a blanket statement like this is misleading. Many WS try very hard not to be cruel to their BSs. I have read many stories here where the Ws is more attentive and more generous, etc, perhaps out of guilt, or perhaps to assure the BS in a convoluted way that she/he is still loved.

 

In the book "Managing Infidelity: A Cross Cultural Perspective" it mentions that women in many societies are relatively indifferent to their husband's infidelity (I find that hard to believe but whatever) but it is an entirely different story for a man if his wife cheats on him. I guess it is more difficult and probably more emotionally damaging for a man to be cheated on because it is a reflection of his inability to and/or losing "control" over his life/family/marriage.

Well, I've read it many times, the infidelity= abuse thing. Google "infidelity abuse" and you can find the stuff pretty readily.

[tami-chan]

Well, I've read it many times, the infidelity= abuse thing. Google "infidelity abuse" and you can find the stuff pretty readily.

 

I didnt have to, as I know first hand that it can be emotionally abusive. But as it were, I did google it and I just came up with "emotional abuse" none of the stuff that you said "universally accepted as the worst from of emotional abuse". However, as you are most likely better read than I am, I will concede if you can direct me to a source?

[Reggie]

Well, one good one is marriagebuilders. Check out Harley's video describing the effects of infidelity. I'll google some and see if i can find more.

[Reggie]

Googled "infidelity emotional abuse " and found a lot of stuff. Also, Glass, Springs, Pittman, Lusterman talk about the severity of the abuse. Most agree that in addition to the actual cheating, the attendant gaslighting and blameshifting is terribly destructive.

[tami-chan]

Googled "infidelity emotional abuse " and found a lot of stuff. Also, Glass, Springs, Pittman, Lusterman talk about the severity of the abuse. Most agree that in addition to the actual cheating, the attendant gaslighting and blameshifting is terribly destructive.

 

I am looking forward to it....i want to know how the study was done that is it universally accepted as the worst form to emotional abuse. Thanks!

[soserious1]

Oh yes the final solution of how does Dexter put it, blackmail.

 

That assumes you have hit deal breakers where you want out totally. Tell you what if I personally got to the point of giving divorce papers there would be no chance for my SO to try to make things right.

 

Again most BS's are never willing to see the WS side of the coin, perfectly understandable.

 

I would say that if you're seriously contemplating an affair you have indeed hit a "deal breaker" in your marriage.. a person with honor at that point point blank tells their spouse "I am tempted to have an affair, I am so unhappy with you, we either agree to work on this or I want a divorce?"

 

Sitting there rationalizing having an affair by patting yourself on the back saying that you've at least given your wife a chance to make things right screams cake eater to me.

[soserious1]

Of course you want to ignore the pre-affair issues of the BS not responding. Because if you do not acknowledge that fact it ruins your black/white way of looking at the world. Plus it removes some of the claim to be an innocent victim. Then the world becomes shades of gray.

 

I'm not ignoring pre-affair BS faults and defects, what I'm saying is that the way to deal with those problems is NOT by having an affair.

 

"I am tempted to have an affair, I am so unhappy with you, do we work on this or do we divorce?"

 

Very simple, clear cut sentence