To AGreatWife re: "Responsibility, blame and outcome"

[Athena]

Who came up with the idea that "issues in the marriage" lead to cheating. It's pretty clear to me that it's the brokeness of the cheater, exclusively, that is the cause of cheating. Otherwise, all the BSs here would have cheated as well.

 

Correct!..

[NoIDidn't]

Who came up with the idea that "issues in the marriage" lead to cheating. It's pretty clear to me that it's the brokeness of the cheater, exclusively, that is the cause of cheating. Otherwise, all the BSs here would have cheated as well.

 

God only knows that this is true!!!!

 

But sometimes BOTH do cheat! And the marriage can still be saved if they want to work on it.

 

I think that we all have a level of brokenness in us. But I think that the waywards choice to cheat is more of a character flaw that they think nothing of throwing away their word in such a serious matter.

 

In the waywards that I have spoken to here, other places, and IRL, they mostly say that just the decision to cheat changed something deep inside of them. When they realized that they could do something that they themselves considered so heinous, they were never the same. But this is also mostly from repentant and remorseful WSs - not the kind that feel entitled to cheat for their "needs".

[tami-chan]

uh read again. Show me where he took ANY responsibility for the state of his marriage. He blames his wife COMPLETELY. If he agrees that the state of a marriage is the responsibility of both parties, then where is his admission of his part in it?

 

So again, show me where he took any responsibility for the state of his marriage.

 

I'll wait........

 

But that wasn't why he posted his response. He posted a response to silktrick's basic assertion: that while there are "some" whose adultery was preceded by issues in the marriage that one of the spouses ignored or did not think important enough, she contends that the vast majority does not and therefore mentioning the "some" or focusing on it, is misleading. Pkn took issue of that and responded. Your assertion that he missed the point while we can finagle it to so that it would make sense is wrong.

 

His response made sense and while you may not agree with what he said or believe it, even, is not point. !

[silktricks]

But that wasn't why he posted his response. He posted a response to silktrick's basic assertion: that while there are "some" whose adultery was preceded by issues in the marriage that one of the spouses ignored or did not think important enough, she contends that the vast majority does not and therefore mentioning the "some" or focusing on it, is misleading.

Actually, that was not my assertion. My assertion was that the BS was not responsible for the problems leading up to the affair. Not because the problems weren't equally caused, but because the WS made a unilateral decision to not work on the issues and instead have an affair.

 

If th WS truly wanted to resolve the issues, they would have - or they would have walked away.

[pkn06002]

Actually, that was not my assertion. My assertion was that the BS was not responsible for the problems leading up to the affair. Not because the problems weren't equally caused, but because the WS made a unilateral decision to not work on the issues and instead have an affair.

 

If th WS truly wanted to resolve the issues, they would have - or they would have walked away.

 

You have already been show examples by me and OWoman that show a WS does TRY to resolve the issues.

 

Oh yes the spend thousands of dollars to walk alway on a vague feeling. Too funny.

 

So your premise is the affair wipes the slate clean for the BS. No matter how neglectful, selfish etc... they are. Sounds just like that other thread where we debated (argued) the weight of sins that effect a marriage.

 

These threads are such a waste of time and accomplish nothing.

[pkn06002]

regardless, he says she is changing her ways now. All the drivel from WS's I have heard said that if they can improve the situation in the marriage, they would welcome it. Oh, but not pkn...he is out for revenge. She will change for him, and he sees this as his opportunity to get back at her....as if cheating wasn't enough. he said this himself.

 

You sure read a lot into my posts.

 

You really need to stop projecting.

[Owl]

You have already been show examples by me and OWoman that show a WS does TRY to resolve the issues.

 

Oh yes the spend thousands of dollars to walk alway on a vague feeling. Too funny.

 

So your premise is the affair wipes the slate clean for the BS. No matter how neglectful, selfish etc... they are. Sounds just like that other thread where we debated (argued) the weight of sins that effect a marriage.

 

These threads are such a waste of time and accomplish nothing.

 

I'd say (from personal experience) that the only way that you can recover a marriage is if both parties take time to identify their own mistakes in the relationship up to the point (and including) of the affair, take responsibilty for and make appropriate changes to fix those issues going forward...and then "wipe the slate clean" for both parties...BS and WS.

 

But if any of those steps are left out on either side...marital recovery is a waste of time.

[pkn06002]

Who came up with the idea that "issues in the marriage" lead to cheating. It's pretty clear to me that it's the brokeness of the cheater, exclusively, that is the cause of cheating. Otherwise, all the BSs here would have cheated as well.

I feel a more accurate way of looking at what leads to cheating is to say that folks with a proclivity for cheating are way less capable of dealing with the expected issues that arise in all marriages and thier incapacity to deal with normal stuff is what leads them to cheat.

Look at Pkn's case. Guy gets frustrated because his wife won't conform to his view. So, for him , the way to solve this is to cheat. He lies, breaks his vows, depletes family resources, hurts his kid, all because he cannot figure out what else to do. That is just so messed up.

 

See I look at it differently, than your simple black/white decision process.

 

Way to solve my frustration was to cheat??? No you have that wrong, why because that would imply I was looking for a replacement. I was looking for an escape, totally different concepts that I really don't expect most BS's to understand. Because most of you seem to celebrate the idea of misery and sucking it up for the vows and the promises. Some of you BS's seem to relish the idea of suffering through a marriage just to say you did it.

 

What is insulting for a WS the BS changes BECAUSE of the infidelity. It seems some of you (BS's) will not get moving (too lazy it seems) to do anything until hit with a board on the side of the head. Regardless if the WS has tried for years to get across to you there ARE problems.

 

Again waste of time writing all of this, since most of you will not care.

[silktricks]

You have already been show examples by me and OWoman that show a WS does TRY to resolve the issues.

 

Oh yes the spend thousands of dollars to walk alway on a vague feeling. Too funny.

 

So your premise is the affair wipes the slate clean for the BS. No matter how neglectful, selfish etc... they are. Sounds just like that other thread where we debated (argued) the weight of sins that effect a marriage.

 

These threads are such a waste of time and accomplish nothing.

I'm assuming that you read nothing else in this thread that I wrote. But as I said earlier, I think many, possibly most, WS make some attempts. But I personally believe that, for example, if I would have sat my husband down and said " I am so unhappy that other men are holding an attraction for me" that it would have reached him better than "I'm unhappy, can we please go to MC."

 

I believe that most people here end up dumping on the BS. In fact most of society does. If your mate cheats on you, well then, there's something wrongwith you.

 

PKN, you chose to have n affair, apparently because of a "vague feeling", why not get a divorce for the same reason? It makes just as much sense.

[herenow]

You have already been show examples by me and OWoman that show a WS does TRY to resolve the issues.

 

Oh yes the spend thousands of dollars to walk alway on a vague feeling. Too funny.

 

So your premise is the affair wipes the slate clean for the BS. No matter how neglectful, selfish etc... they are. Sounds just like that other thread where we debated (argued) the weight of sins that effect a marriage.

 

These threads are such a waste of time and accomplish nothing.

 

So, if these threads are a waste of time for you, why are you reading them? Oh, I know, it's our fault. We are acting in a way that is making you read this thread. You are not in control of your actions and if we would only agree with you and do what you want, you wouldn't have to waste you time on this thread.

 

I know, I know you have tried to make us all see that we are to blame for you reading this thread, but we just won't do anything about it, so how can we blame you for wasting your time? Sigh, I guess we will all have to continue to waste our time since we won't do as you say.

 

BTW, there are many BS's including myself that take our share of the blame for problems in our marriage, but take no blame for our spouses making the decision to have an affair. How can you blame someone for something they have no choice about or are even aware is happening? And, most of us have made changes along with our spouses to save our marriages and make them even stronger.

 

The BS's and WS's that felt their marriages were beyond repair moved on. As much as the BS's were part of the failure of the marriage, they still weren't blame if their spouse had an affair.

[silktricks]

If we each want to have a happy marriage, we have to take responsibility both for that marriage and for the state of our own happiness. It doesn't do any good (for example) for me to get all hurt and mopey if my husband doesn't bring me flower if he has no earthly idea that I would like them. Nor does it do good if instead of telling him that my feelings are hurt, or that I feel 2nd best in some way, that instead I give him the cold shoulder. He would have no idea what was going on in my mind.

 

Many of us, however, seem to think that because we are married both we and our spouses are supposed to all of a sudden become mind readers. It doesn't work that way. Why would your spouse think you were unhappy about something if you never let them know it? It's not a matter of taking on blame, it's a matter of taking on responsibility for our lives and our marriage.

 

But if one of the spouses choose to default on that responsibility and assign all "blame" to the other, if one chooses to view the responsibility of marriage as one sided instead of joint, and have an affair, then the betrayed spouse can't be "blamed" for not fixing something they didn't know was broken. One person can't fix something all by themselves.

[Dexter Morgan]

You sure read a lot into my posts.

 

You really need to stop projecting.

 

Projecting? You said in your own words that its time to give her what she gave you all this time. You are getting your revenge on a wife that is changing to work on the marriage.

 

no projecting at all.

[tami-chan]

Actually, that was not my assertion. My assertion was that the BS was not responsible for the problems leading up to the affair. Not because the problems weren't equally caused, but because the WS made a unilateral decision to not work on the issues and instead have an affair.

 

If th WS truly wanted to resolve the issues, they would have - or they would have walked away.

 

silktricks, with due respect, you are going back and forth with your argument. NOBODY said that the BS IS responsible for the problems leading up to the affair. I did say however, that SOME BS are responsible for issues in the marriage the might have/could have lead to the WS deciding to cheat BUT that ultimately, the BS does not bear responsibility in that decision. So I am really quite confused what you are disagreeing about.

 

I do know that this is what you have said:

 

I am really disagreeing with your concept that some BS contribute to the problems leading up to the cheating. In my opinion, that is a cop-out for both the WS and the OP. Of course there are some BS who are complete A-wipes, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't discussing the unusual cases, but were rather talking about the ordinary run of the mill affairs that are "caused" by "problems in the marriage".

Which lead me to believe that just because there are SOME BSs who might have or have contributed to the cause that lead to the decision of the WS to cheat, you do not think that it is worth mentioning because those are unusual cases. Which in turn prompted pkn to respond.

 

I think what you want to say( despite your statement above that some 'BS.. are complete asswipes" )is that there is nothing that the BS might/could have done in the marriage that would lead any potential WS to cheat. I do not agree with that, because there are spouses who are just not willing/or do not have the fortitude to take the necessary steps to address the issues in the marriage, which would/could leave one( or both) an emotional vacuum, yet despite that vaccuum are also unwilling to divorce. If there is an emotional vacuum, people will seek out something or someone to fill it. It is a basic need in humans to be emotionally fulfilled. Some submerged themselves in their children, work, others in their Art and still others find someone else.

 

While you and others might say, well, if the issues are so deep, why not JUST divorce---well, no, because many while they want their needs fulfilled still find there is value in keeping their marriage ( whatever that value is). So yes, it comes down to personal conviction, morality or what not. But we cannot , must not deny the fact that the decision to cheat or stay in an issues laden marriage is a complex and sometimes difficult one.

 

Let me give you a classic example: A BS stays in the marriage, remains faithful to a spouse who is a serial cheater (this, despite pleadings,threats and tears from the BS). She lives a comfortable life, she loves being his wife, the kids are well-bahaved and above-all she loves her husband. Still there is that emotional vacuum inside her--comes an OM who gave her the attention and faithfulness she craves, she decides to cheat on her cheating H. Now the WS is also a BS. Do you not think that the H has contributed to the wife's issues that lead to her decision to cheat? Of course, as what have been said before-the decision to cheat in itself is ultimately the cheater's call.

[silktricks]

silktricks, with due respect, you are going back and forth with your argument. NOBODY said that the BS IS responsible for the problems leading up to the affair. I did say however, that SOME BS are responsible for issues in the marriage the might have/could have lead to the WS deciding to cheat BUT that ultimately, the BS does not bear responsibility in that decision. So I am really quite confused what you are disagreeing about.

 

I have changed your bolding....

 

you have spoken both ways... first that the BS is not responsible, and then that the BS is responsible.

 

What I am saying is that both partners are responsible for the health of the marriage. Most WS say they cheated because "there were issues in the marriage and though I told my spouse there were problems, they wouldn't fix those problems".... or words to that effect.

 

I say that this is a cop-out, and is placing all of the responsibility for the health of the marriage (and therefore their own happiness) on the other person. If there are problems big enough to "cause" an affair, then there are problems big enough to actually work at resolving. If both people do not put in the energy required to fix the problems, then tell the other partner that they can no longer live like this. But don't hide in the shadows - and don't affix "blame" for the affair on the other person.

 

I think what you want to say( despite your statement above that some 'BS.. are complete asswipes" )is that there is nothing that the BS might/could have done in the marriage that would lead any potential WS to cheat.

:lmao: I am saying that the WS has equal responsiblity (in most cases ---- hence the reference to some A-wipes ---- ) to make the marriage work - equal responsiblity to resolve problems. If there are problems that are severe enough to make a person want to cheat, then those problems need to be brought up and resolved. If they cannot be resolved than the person who wants to cheat because of the problems should say something to the effect of, "If you will not work with me on resolving this, then I take it that you are giving me permission to be with someone else, because that is what I will do."

 

I do not agree with that, because there are spouses who are just not willing/or do not have the fortitude to take the necessary steps to address the issues in the marriage, which would/could leave one( or both) an emotional vacuum, yet despite that vaccuum are also unwilling to divorce. If there is an emotional vacuum, people will seek out something or someone to fill it. It is a basic need in humans to be emotionally fulfilled. Some submerged themselves in their children, work, others in their Art and still others find someone else.

Because the potential cheater is not willing to address the issues in the marriage they then have the "right" to cheat? I disagree. They have the responsiblity to address the issues. If they choose not to address those issues, then so be it, but they certainly do not, at that point have the right both to cheat AND to then blame the now BS for the issues.

 

While you and others might say, well, if the issues are so deep, why not JUST divorce---well, no, because many while they want their needs fulfilled still find there is value in keeping their marriage ( whatever that value is). So yes, it comes down to personal conviction, morality or what not. But we cannot , must not deny the fact that the decision to cheat or stay in an issues laden marriage is a complex and sometimes difficult one.

Of course it is complex and difficult - life is both very complex and very difficult. But... again, I say, that if a person chooses to have an affair because of their unwillingness or inability to deal with issues, then they no longer have the right to lay the responsiblity for the issues at the door of the person who has no idea they even exist.

 

Let me give you a classic example: A BS stays in the marriage, remains faithful to a spouse who is a serial cheater (this, despite pleadings,threats and tears from the BS). She lives a comfortable life, she loves being his wife, the kids are well-bahaved and above-all she loves her husband. Still there is that emotional vacuum inside her--comes an OM who gave her the attention and faithfulness she craves, she decides to cheat on her cheating H. Now the WS is also a BS. Do you not think that the H has contributed to the wife's issues that lead to her decision to cheat? Of course, as what have been said before-the decision to cheat in itself is ultimately the cheater's call.

 

No, I do not. The BS who chose to also cheat has made a choice. She had the choice to leave the cheater. Once she has made the choice to instead become a cheater, she no longer has the right to say "well, if you hadn't done this, then I wouldn't have done that." Her choice took that right away. She did, however, have the choice to say, "listen, let's just have an open marriage. You want to sleep with other women, I want to sleep with at least one other man, but we both want to stay married because it's better for us financially" or whatever.

[pkn06002]

So, if these threads are a waste of time for you, why are you reading them?

 

Oh now a good question.

 

Because occasionally you can meet someone that is worth discussing these types of topics with. But most times they are a waste of time because they just become a back and forth of nasty comments. The same old same old over and over of raw BS's just wanting to vent on a WS (any WS).

 

So generally I do not engage in these threads anymore. But in this case had to, because of the great and wide brush strokes that are incorrect about all WS's.

 

 

silktricks:

I have read what you posted and I gave you an example that debunks your broad brush strokes. You made a blanket statement that is wrong(which now you have kind of changed your tune on). Yes the affair is the WS deal, so what. I never made any statements about that, don't defend cheating either.

 

To you divorce makes sense to me not so much. Why would I pro-actively give up what I have to chase something that may or may not be out there? Go back and read my post to Owl on that very subject I wrote down my reasons. They are my PERSONAL reasons, that may or may not apply to another WS.

 

You think most people dump on the BS???? That is far from what I have EVER seen on forums like this. I have seen nothing but support for BS's and how NOTHING was their fault. Sometimes you see a BS that will admit to what they did not respond to pre-affair. I read nothing but vent after vent about how the WS is a POS and the OM/OW is a trespasser etc... etc... But oh low and behold if a WS stands up to the venting and gives their view time to get out the lynch mob.

 

On your responsibility of the future WS to address the problems. You can see thread after thread of where a BS did NOT respond to anything until an affair happened. Then after the affair they (BS) are all about how to fix things. It only took a gentle 2x4 to get their full attention to address the issues. But then so much damage has been done that nothing may ever get fixed.

 

The more of your posts I read silktricks the more I see you are venting your personal experience. Which is fine just leave out the broad brush strokes about how ALL WS's are. Because each of our stories WS/BS are different.

[tami-chan]

I have changed your bolding....

 

you have spoken both ways... first that the BS is not responsible, and then that the BS is responsible.

 

No, i "have not spoken both ways". Can you not tell the difference between the statements? Saying "THE BS"=does not have a qualifier. Saying "SOME BS", has the qualifier "some". GET it?

 

Because the potential cheater is not willing to address the issues in the marriage they then have the "right" to cheat?

 

To cheat is not a right. Who said it was? Are you saying then no BS was ever unwilling to address issues in marriage?

 

This is not about blaming anybody in the marriage as much as stating facts about the problems in the marriage or the problems within the individuals. Your approach is I think, simplistic. I can understand because as a BS I used to think why does H not just file for divorce if I was not enough for him sexually? It is simple, just do it. Or if H does not quit cheating, why wont we just have an open marriage? well, because H will not agree and BS still hopes that the marriage will get back on track somehow, someday.

 

I do not remember if you said you were a BS or are. Did you change anything in your life or the way you are in the marriage after D-day? I would think that every BS who do not think they have contributed to the issues in the marriage should not have to change a thing,right? After all , why change when obviously all the problems that lead to his cheating was all his?

[Reggie]

Again, to me there seems to be a misconception that the problems in a marriage in some way contributed to the decison to cheat. Yet, we see many stories of folks that cheat where they acknowledge the problems were few and far between, and not terribly severe.

And, in those marriages where there are problems, typically, only one person is doing the cheating. So, the variable seems to be something that is within the cheater that allows them to lie etc.

I think the overriding reasons people cheat iare that they are selfish, feel entitled, lack integrity and empathy.

I just do not see how problems in a marriage contributed, as there are so many other alternatives available to change the situation. It's like saying "I did not like the color of our house(problem), so I burned it to the ground."

[tami-chan]

Again, to me there seems to be a misconception that the problems in a marriage in some way contributed to the decison to cheat. Yet, we see many stories of folks that cheat where they acknowledge the problems were few and far between, and not terribly severe.

And, in those marriages where there are problems, typically, only one person is doing the cheating. So, the variable seems to be something that is within the cheater that allows them to lie etc.

I think the overriding reasons people cheat iare that they are selfish, feel entitled, lack integrity and empathy.

I just do not see how problems in a marriage contributed, as there are so many other alternatives available to change the situation. It's like saying "I did not like the color of our house(problem), so I burned it to the ground."

 

You are determined to look at it your way ignoring the qualifiers in the statements.

[Owl]

You are determined to look at it your way ignoring the qualifiers in the statements.

 

And you are doing exactly the same.

 

Fight over...let's take an easier one next time, and solve world peace?

[pkn06002]

And you are doing exactly the same.

 

Fight over...let's take an easier one next time, and solve world peace?

 

LOL

 

Oh you made me snort!!!!!!

[silktricks]

Pkn - it seems so funny to me that you think i-m "venting my personal experience"... Or even venting at all, cuz I'm not. I simply stated an opinion that apparently you took exception to. The fact that you think I've "changed my tune" simply means to me that both I didn't express it completely - which I know I didn't, but also that you didn't clearly understand what I was saying in the beginning.

 

I didn't say the BS had no part in the problems pre-affair, I said that post affair they did not bear responsibility for the problems. My point is that you cannot fix something that you either don't know is wrong or that the other person won't work on with you. It's my opinion that we all bear ultimate responsibility for our own happiness.

 

You have mentioned the affair being a 2x4 to the head. My point is that the 2x4 can be applied pre-affair if the WS really wants to. Usually, though, they aren't into working on the problems in a way that is constructive as opposed to destructive. I've said elsewhere that I believe that many affairs are "caused" more by anger at the spouse than by the attractiveness of the OP.

 

I gave to you my own example, that I left. In answer to TC's question, though I've aligned mostly with BS, I cannot claim that I was a BS because I did leave - and I left prior to any entanglements. Though we were still married and it still hurt horribly. (However, 've also been a WS and at that time thought it was OK since I was unhappy and had "tried to solve the problems". Age and life experience has taught me differently.)

 

But pkn and tc, I don't care if you agree with my opinion at all, as my opinion is perfectly valid without anyone elses concurrence.

[soserious1]

Oh now a good question.

 

To you divorce makes sense to me not so much. Why would I pro-actively give up what I have to chase something that may or may not be out there? Go back and read my post to Owl on that very subject I wrote down my reasons. They are my PERSONAL reasons, that may or may not apply to another WS.

.

 

There it is again.. the self absorbed thinking of a cheater.. why would "I" give up what I have ?

 

Because come discovery day it's no longer just about you and what you want, the BS gets a choice on D day and a lot of BS like myself come to and realize that what we have is a lying, scheming gas lighter for a partner and we decide that what we've got in that person is worth less than nothing.

 

As far as the chasing something that may or not be out there, I'd respectfully submit that you did your chasing while having the affair.

 

As to all the rest, while there may very well be issues/problems in a marriage I have yet to see a spouse that can ignore the words "We either fix this or I want a divorce" when they are clearly and loudly spoken and followed up on with divorce papers, no cheating sledge hammer needed then.

[soserious1]

 

These threads are such a waste of time and accomplish nothing.

 

just like the years one spends married to a lying, scheming, gas lighting unfaithful spouse.. just a waste of years of time and worth less than nothing.

 

I also cannot neglect to mention the tendency of WS to rewrite the marital history, sometimes editing the script so heavily that the history of events is unrecognizable to the BS or to anyone who is closely aquainted with the couple. I believe there have been stidies dome showing that when relationships are closely looked at in MC, the WS usually perceives they've done a lot more of the giving in the marriage than they actually have.

[tami-chan]

And you are doing exactly the same.

 

How so? What am I ignoring? or did you just read my statement half way and IGNORED the rest of it, thus the response?

[soserious1]

I am holding her hostage??? What I have her tied up in the basement?

 

She is free to leave at any time, we have discussed this. I already know the financial impacts and have discussed those with her also. I have hidden none of those things.

 

My consequences???? I have had to deal with all of the fall out from the affair. Both her pain and mine, working through both to get to a place that is workable. I know that is not payment enough in your eyes, but that is the way it is. We both hurt each other with being selfish, the only way to fix that is to work on ourselves and address those issues.

 

Oh I guess I would be better off with out her changing? Better off without her becoming an active part of the marriage instead of relying on her vows to "protect" her. Sorry the changes seem to be a better thing, which could've happened before the affair. But she was not interested in making those changes because she was happy, screw if I was right.

 

Your the BS is a victim mentality does not work with me Dexter. Because I just don't see it that way. Marriage is an even partnership and rarely are the issues one sided, regardless of the claims by either the BS or WS. So plenty of blame to go around for EVERYONE to play the victim.

 

I pay alimony, I pay a pretty hefty amount of alimony and reading your posts I've decided that those payments are probably the best money I've ever spent. I dumped a guy who sounds a lot like you.

 

Thanks for really and truly putting a bright light on the fact that my divorce lawyer and the judge were like skilled surgeons, they excised a fatal cancer from my life, expensive but sooo worth it. You've totally made my day here