To AGreatWife re: "Responsibility, blame and outcome"

[Montclair0011]

Sorry, Montclair0011. I am not sure what it is that I didn't get. I get that fact that some people cheat regardless if their SO is perfect. So you are one of those who is totally blameless, but what about the rest who ACTUALLY accept that they had a hand in the problems in their marriage?

 

ahmm...Jesus, you needed help! I do not mean to be rude, but people who are doormats are not exciting. How would anyone see your worth if you did not think you were worthy?

 

It lasted long because you were willing to take his er...crap. And he saw that you were a willing victim.

 

I don't know you and if you say you're not, then you are not. Most BSs are NOT the cause of the cheating. It can be a number of things-dissatisfaction, selfishness, entitlement, etc. I don't know if this makes sense....it's kinda like the "loving the sin but not sinner"scenario . The BS is not the cause of the cheating, it is the actions or inactions of either party that LEAD to the cheating....again, there those who do not fit this scenario.

 

and you took it? despite of yourself? or you left...<hope you left>.

 

I have a question for you...so if your husband said one day...."I am not happy with you and I want to be with this OW"...you would have let him go without fuss?

 

 

tami-chan - I still don't think you are understanding me. I take responsibility for the problems in my marriage that I contributed to (and for my poor choice in men based on low self-esteem). There were issues, as in EVERY MARRIAGE, and both people needed to come together and work thme out. My husband was incapable of allowing me to be anything other than a doormat. Had I stood up to him, he no doubt would have become physically abusive (as he started to in the end) and probably cheated earlier. I was willing to work on the marriage. He was not. It takes two to keep a marriage (but only one to end it).

 

I take ZERO responsibility for his cheating. Cheating is not an acceptable response to marital problems. It's a cowardly way of sticking a knife into the heart of a marriage and killing it. My husband should have pushed for MC (which I would have gone to willingly) or left me. Instead he notched up the abuse and tried to provoke me into leaving him first so he could be the "innocent" one and keep the house too (he's a cheapskate who always exptected me to pay more than my share). There is a whole set of manipulative and abusive tactics that go along with cheating spouses designed to make the BS look like she/he deserved to be cheated on and THIS NEEDS TO STOP.

 

The idea that a BS DESERVES to be cheated on is BS. Some of them deserve to be left and divorced, but marital purgatory should not be an option.

 

Maybe a different kind of person could have been sucessfully married to my husband and made it work, but I doubt it. His sister said I was a saint for marrying him. His anger problems were present long before we met. I am his second wife, BTW (he was divorced when we met--he said she cheated on him--but he lies so who knows).

[PhoenixRise]

Another Stupid BS checking in.

 

 

I usually just lurk here but I need to say:

 

When you marry someone you think you are marrying a good person. I know that is what I thought. I thought my H had a great deal of integrity and character. I thought I could trust him, otherwise I wouldn't have married him.

 

ALL marriages have problems. Any time you have two adults living together, managing joint finances, working toward common and individual goals, dealing with in-laws- all the stuff that goes with marriage you WILL have problems from time to time. AND if you add in children you add in a whole new dynamic of problems that can arise.

 

As a married person, you can KNOW that there will be problems, that there are problems, but you also KNOW that you married a person with integrity and character. You chose each other for better or worse and you believe in that. If you know for a fact that you would never deal with the problems in the marriage by cheating then why should you expect that your spouse would cheat?

 

Bottom line: knowing that there are problems does not equal knowing your spouse will cheat. Knowing that you contributed to those marital problems does not make you responsible for the cheating.

[Reggie]

Another Stupid BS checking in.

 

 

I usually just lurk here but I need to say:

 

When you marry someone you think you are marrying a good person. I know that is what I thought. I thought my H had a great deal of integrity and character. I thought I could trust him, otherwise I wouldn't have married him.

 

ALL marriages have problems. Any time you have two adults living together, managing joint finances, working toward common and individual goals, dealing with in-laws- all the stuff that goes with marriage you WILL have problems from time to time. AND if you add in children you add in a whole new dynamic of problems that can arise.

 

As a married person, you can KNOW that there will be problems, that there are problems, but you also KNOW that you married a person with integrity and character. You chose each other for better or worse and you believe in that. If you know for a fact that you would never deal with the problems in the marriage by cheating then why should you expect that your spouse would cheat?

 

Bottom line: knowing that there are problems does not equal knowing your spouse will cheat. Knowing that you contributed to those marital problems does not make you responsible for the cheating.

 

Phoenix, I think we all know that unless a BS is perfect, the marriage without problems, and the BS is clairvoyant, a WS is perfectly entitled to cheat and the BS caused this . What other choices do they have? It's not like one could expect a WS to abide by his/her vows under the circumstances.

[tami-chan]

My interpretation of your post

I said ALL?

 

If you are saying the BS must recognize distance as unhappiness...I disagree. Especially when the WS 1) says nothing and 2) has no discernible behavior change.

 

I didn't say that. But this is what I mean-when the other person checks out of the marriage and does the forbidden act of adultery or files for divorce because of "issues" in the marriage, whether expressed eloquently or unexpressed or barely expressed (before the forbidden acts), the BS (after D-day) has to recognized it as such -or maybe the word should be-acknowledge it as such, because it is the WS's truth. It is what he/she believes-it doesn't matter if the BS knew or not, it doesn't matter if it is real or just perceived as real--it is the Ws's truth. Now if for whatever reason the parties want to clear the air and talk about the "issues" ( real or not), I said counseling might help to separate the truth from the false perceptions and what not. Really it boils down to being able to communicate better. So if they want to save their marriage,or go their separate ways they would have learned that good communication is the key to a better marriage. Which is of course, a no brainer!

 

Like you say, the WS must communicate. And I would add "unambiguously the breadth and depth of his/her unhappiness" INSTEAD of saying "the BS should have seen/felt/sensed it coming".

 

I didnt say that. You remind me of someone here who always manage to "read" more than what is posted. What you posted above is not my stance-do not confuse us.

 

Otherwise, to me, WS shirk the blame of the A. Ultimately, they cheated instead of communicating and trying to "fix" the issue.

 

Well, it is certainly the choice that many people take. It does not make it right, it just is. Now, if BSs are not interested in knowing where the breakdown is or why it broke then there is no need for counseling or LS. Just head to the divorce court (because after all ,the Ws cheated and it is wrong)-no questions asked, right?

[tami-chan]

tami-chan - I still don't think you are understanding me. I take responsibility for the problems in my marriage that I contributed to (and for my poor choice in men based on low self-esteem). There were issues, as in EVERY MARRIAGE, and both people needed to come together and work thme out.

 

You are right, I do not understand you. First you paint this very disturbing picture of your husband and said there was nothing you didnt do for him ( or something to that effect) and yet your H still was abusive to you. So I said, Ok so your are one of those blameless BS.

 

Now, you are saying this: (check the bolded part above). You are saying two different things!

 

My husband was incapable of allowing me to be anything other than a doormat. Had I stood up to him, he no doubt would have become physically abusive (as he started to in the end) and probably cheated earlier. I was willing to work on the marriage. He was not. It takes two to keep a marriage (but only one to end it).

 

My dear, you were incapable of allowing yourself NOT to be a doormat in that marriage. So since you did not stand up to him, whose fault is that? You accepted that being a doormat was your fault, right? Let's get that clear.

 

I take ZERO responsibility for his cheating. Cheating is not an acceptable response to marital problems. It's a cowardly way of sticking a knife into the heart of a marriage and killing it.

 

Did I disagree with you on this? I said it is a passive-aggressive way of dealing with the issues in the marriage, did I not?

 

My husband should have pushed for MC (which I would have gone to willingly) or left me. Instead he notched up the abuse and tried to provoke me into leaving him first so he could be the "innocent" one and keep the house too (he's a cheapskate who always exptected me to pay more than my share).

 

Why didn't YOU push for MC? I get it, because you were a doormat and did not have a voice. Your husband did not push for MC because he got you where he wanted you and because he is an evil man.

 

There is a whole set of manipulative and abusive tactics that go along with cheating spouses designed to make the BS look like she/he deserved to be cheated on and THIS NEEDS TO STOP.

 

I am sure there are, but like everything else-marriage and adultery is highly personal. I think we can all agree though that ADULTERY is never the answer, right?

 

The idea that a BS DESERVES to be cheated on is BS. Some of them deserve to be left and divorced, but marital purgatory should not be an option

 

I do not know whose idea that is, it is not mine.

[tami-chan]

As a married person, you can KNOW that there will be problems, that there are problems, but you also KNOW that you married a person with integrity and character. You chose each other for better or worse and you believe in that. If you know for a fact that you would never deal with the problems in the marriage by cheating then why should you expect that your spouse would cheat?

 

I think many vows also contain "to love and to cherish", "to support", "to nurture" and other things. So if a spouse feels "uncherished" ( as in, taken for granted), has a vow been broken then?

 

Bottom line: knowing that there are problems does not equal knowing your spouse will cheat. Knowing that you contributed to those marital problems does not make you responsible for the cheating.

 

You are right. But recognizing and acknowledging and working to fix the problems might avert adultery.

[PhoenixRise]

Phoenix, I think we all know that unless a BS is perfect, the marriage without problems, and the BS is clairvoyant, a WS is perfectly entitled to cheat and the BS caused this . What other choices do they have? It's not like one could expect a WS to abide by his/her vows under the circumstances.

 

 

Yep. Heaven forbid any married person expect fidelity when they are unable to deliver perfection in return.

[PhoenixRise]

I think many vows also contain "to love and to cherish", "to support", "to nurture" and other things. So if a spouse feels "uncherished" ( as in, taken for granted), has a vow been broken then?

 

 

 

You are right. But recognizing and acknowledging and working to fix the problems might avert adultery.

 

 

My vows said "Love, Honor, and Cherish, forsaking all others"

 

My vow was to love him. I did that. Cherish him. I did that. My vow was to honor him. I did that. I also vowed to forsake all others. I did that.

 

If there was something within him (and there was) that caused him to feel uncherished in spite of my best efforts then what SHOULD have sustained him is his vow to "Love, Honor, and Cherish ME, forsaking all others.

 

There are things I could have done to improve the marriage. Nobody is perfect.

However, there is nothing I could have done to prevent him from cheating if his freely given vow before God to be faithful didn't prevent him from cheating.

 

I am in no way responsible for his affair. He is completely responsible for his failure to live up to his promises and his expectations of himself.

[tami-chan]

If there was something within him (and there was) that caused him to feel uncherished in spite of my best efforts then what SHOULD have sustained him is his vow to "Love, Honor, and Cherish ME, forsaking all others.

But it didn't. Did you divorce him?

 

There are things I could have done to improve the marriage. Nobody is perfect.

However, there is nothing I could have done to prevent him from cheating if his freely given vow before God to be faithful didn't prevent him from cheating.

Some people are just cheats, what can I say?

 

I am in no way responsible for his affair. He is completely responsible for his failure to live up to his promises and his expectations of himself.

I hope you threw his behind out at D-day?

[jwi71]

I said ALL?

 

Why so fixated on this?

No, you didn't say "all" - feel better?

 

I didn't say that. But this is what I mean-when the other person checks out of the marriage and does the forbidden act of adultery or files for divorce because of "issues" in the marriage, whether expressed eloquently or unexpressed or barely expressed (before the forbidden acts), the BS (after D-day) has to recognized it as such -or maybe the word should be-acknowledge it as such, because it is the WS's truth. It is what he/she believes-it doesn't matter if the BS knew or not, it doesn't matter if it is real or just perceived as real--it is the Ws's truth. Now if for whatever reason the parties want to clear the air and talk about the "issues" ( real or not), I said counseling might help to separate the truth from the false perceptions and what not. Really it boils down to being able to communicate better. So if they want to save their marriage,or go their separate ways they would have learned that good communication is the key to a better marriage. Which is of course, a no brainer!

I see your point.

 

I didnt say that. You remind me of someone here who always manage to "read" more than what is posted. What you posted above is not my stance-do not confuse us.

This makes no sense since I was agreeing with you.

So...to be clear...communication IS key even if the spouse decides to D w/o an A.

 

Well, it is certainly the choice that many people take. It does not make it right, it just is. Now, if BSs are not interested in knowing where the breakdown is or why it broke then there is no need for counseling or LS. Just head to the divorce court (because after all ,the Ws cheated and it is wrong)-no questions asked, right?

And that happens I'm sure. I have little doubt that some BS simply file for D and NEVER communicate again.

 

However I believe that most go through that questioning phase. I know that I was always asked why when I was the "dumper" and always asked when I was the "dumpee". I chalk it up to human nature.

[tami-chan]

Jwi71: I was referring to this statement:

 

....instead of the BS should have seen/felt/sensed it coming"

 

I thought you were attributing that to me.

[PhoenixRise]

But it didn't. Did you divorce him?

 

Some people are just cheats, what can I say?

 

I hope you threw his behind out at D-day?

 

No It didn't, and it is in no way a reflection on me as a BS that it didn't.

My point is that a BS bears no responsibility (none) for an affair conducted by a WS.

 

AND

 

I didn't divorce him but after trying to reconcile the marriage and taking on a lot of blame that was not mine to bear I left. Moved across two states and started working on building a good life for me and my child and began the divorce process. My WS after asking me repeatedly to come back ended up following me without any promise on my part that I would take him back, embracing IC and later initiating MC to prove his comittment to healing himself and our marriage.

 

I do agree with you that there must be consequences. I am convinced that leaving him and moving away was key to us rebuilding our marriage.

[tami-chan]

No It didn't, and it is in no way a reflection on me as a BS that it didn't.

My point is that a BS bears no responsibility (none) for an affair conducted by a WS.

 

You are right BSs bear no responsibility in the WS's decision to cheat. But some BSs bear the responsibility of issues in the marriage that lead to the cheating.

 

I didn't divorce him but after trying to reconcile the marriage and taking on a lot of blame that was not mine to bear I left. Moved across two states and started working on building a good life for me and my child and began the divorce process. My WS after asking me repeatedly to come back ended up following me without any promise on my part that I would take him back, embracing IC and later initiating MC to prove his comittment to healing himself and our marriage.

 

I do agree with you that there must be consequences. I am convinced that leaving him and moving away was key to us rebuilding our marriage.

 

Good for you and your family! Congratulations!

[Reggie]

Research shows that in most cases, the WS bears the bulk of the responsibility for pre-A issues. Makes sense, they are liars and poor communicators and poor problem solvers to begin with. Not exactly marriage material.

[silktricks]

You are right BSs bear no responsibility in the WS's decision to cheat. But some BSs bear the responsibility of issues in the marriage that lead to the cheating

I used to agree with you on this point, basically that "it takes two" to either make or break a marriage. And that I was equally at fault with my husband. After staying away from LS for quite sometime, though, I've found my position has changed somewhat.

 

It certainly takes 2 to make a marriage, but it can be broken by one all on their own.

 

I've read this thread with interest, as communication has been cited as a key - a point that I firmly agree with, but you cannot communicate with someone who does not wish to communicate, nor can you resolve problems when one person refuses to consider the possibility that they have any part in the problem - and therefore no part in the resolution.

 

A person who is willing to cheat is usually not going to "own" any part of the problems leading to the cheating - at least not at that time. If a marriage is truly to recover, however, they will need to eventually face the facts.

 

The OP will rarely want to believe that the WS is anything other than the injured party, possibly because they know their actions are injuring a 3rd party, and it's possibly easier if they can view the BS as being guilty of ruining the marriage in the 1st place...

[tami-chan]

I used to agree with you on this point, basically that "it takes two" to either make or break a marriage. And that I was equally at fault with more is husband. After staying away from LS for quite sometime, though, I've found my position has changed somewhat.

 

It certainly takes 2 to make a marriage, but it can be broken by one all on their own.

 

Not sure what you are disagreeing about. Certainly, there are cases where one spouse is blameless. I have said it sooooo many times. Ad nauseum. You and some others here insist on saying I am saying ALL CHEATING is caused by BOTH parties. You fail to see that I used SOME and bolded it so people like you will not misunderstand it, apparently to no avail.

[Reggie]

Actually, no BS causes cheating. It is totally the WS's responsibility. So, no, "some" BSs do not cause the WS to cheat.

[tami-chan]

Let me go back to my statements:

 

You are right BSs bear no responsibility in the WS's decision to cheat. But some BSs bear the responsibility of issues in the marriage that lead to the cheating.

 

The use of "some" was for the above statement. Sorry for the error.

 

I think you know what I mean,though, but it's fun to parse the statements to push our agendas, whatever it is.

[silktricks]

Not sure what you are disagreeing about.

 

I am really disagreeing with your concept that some BS contribute to the problems leading up to the cheating. In my opinion, that is a cop-out for both the WS and the OP. Of course there are some BS who are complete A-wipes, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't discussing the unusual cases, but were rather talking about the ordinary run of the mill affairs that are "caused" by "problems in the marriage".

 

As I said, I used to agree with what you were saying, that some BS contribute to the problems. My point, when I said I was disagreeing, is that it takes two people to resolve problems. Any relationship anywhere, anytime will experience problems. Those problems will, almost without doubt be caused by both people. (Again there are probably "some" exceptions, but not enough to use in reference.)

 

The point I was attempting to make is that a person who will choose to have an affair "because of problems" is usually not the same person who will attempt to work on those problems. The WS will usually either be of the mindset that they are entitled to an affair because of the problems or feel they have zero input into the problems, that all are caused by their spouse.... either way, it doesn't matter what the problems are, the BS is not responsible, because the BS wasn't given the choice to work on the problems. Yes, I'm sure that you will say that "some" are given the choice, but the "some" are very very few in number. So few, in fact, that use of the word "some" IMO becomes only a clever use of words to put the problem back where most WS and OPs want it.... on the BS.

[tami-chan]

I am really disagreeing with your concept that some BS contribute to the problems leading up to the cheating. In my opinion, that is a cop-out for both the WS and the OP. Of course there are some BS who are complete A-wipes, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't discussing the unusual cases, but were rather talking about the ordinary run of the mill affairs that are "caused" by "problems in the marriage".

 

ohhhh, I get it. You only want me to talk about MAJORITY and the USUAL cases. I do not know the majority and usual cases, have not found any independent studies worth quoting. But from what I have read , of those who want to save their marriages-the BSs do not usually exempt themselves from the issues the could have/might have, or must have lead to the WSs commiting adultery. Nor do WSs excuse themselves from the errors of their ways--again, if they want to save their marriage or do not want to go through the same storm again.

 

As I said, I used to agree with what you were saying, that some BS contribute to the problems. My point, when I said I was disagreeing, is that it takes two people to resolve problems. Any relationship anywhere, anytime will experience problems. Those problems will, almost without doubt be caused by both people. (Again there are probably "some" exceptions, but not enough to use in reference.)

 

Ok, let me get this straight: you disagree because "it takes two people to resolve problems-problems...almost without doubt be caused by both people".....ahmm....I am confused...sorry. By BOTH, do you mean the WS AND the BS?

 

The WS will usually either be of the mindset that they are entitled to an affair because of the problems or feel they have zero input into the problems, that all are caused by their spouse....

 

I agree.

 

Yes, I'm sure that you will say that "some" are given the choice, but the "some" are very very few in number. So few, in fact, that use of the word "some" IMO becomes only a clever use of words to put the problem back where most WS and OPs want it.... on the BS.

 

So few? how do you know that? anyway, I do not really care if you find it a 'clever' way of shifting blame back to the WS. It is the truth. I am not "shifting" blame, I am just presenting the other side of the coin. If you want to believe that BSs are blameless, that is certainly your choice.

 

I am a BS and I WAS blameless

[OWoman]

The point I was attempting to make is that a person who will choose to have an affair "because of problems" is usually not the same person who will attempt to work on those problems. The WS will usually either be of the mindset that they are entitled to an affair because of the problems or feel they have zero input into the problems, that all are caused by their spouse.... either way, it doesn't matter what the problems are, the BS is not responsible, because the BS wasn't given the choice to work on the problems. Yes, I'm sure that you will say that "some" are given the choice, but the "some" are very very few in number. So few, in fact, that use of the word "some" IMO becomes only a clever use of words to put the problem back where most WS and OPs want it.... on the BS.

 

I wouldn't know what the numbers are, but I'm living with one such example. My H's xW walked out of MC when the MC argued that xW's abusive behaviour was a problem in the M and that xW needed to accept her own responsibility for that instead of blaming it all on her H. She refused to go back to any form of MC or IC after that, refused to discuss any problems in the M (since she was so convinced there were no problems in the M, the only problem was H) and refused to reevaluate her own behaviour in any way. H continued counselling, learned to acknowledge his own needs, as a result of which he got involved in an A and discovered what non-abusive Rs were like, and left his xW. Ideally he should have left her before embarking on another R, yes, but at that point he was still too damaged to be able to do so.

 

I think everybody should accept responsibility for their own behaviour, and their own choices, but I don't think "blame" is a very helpful concept as it just provokes defensiveness and hostility.

[silktricks]

Owoman, I agree that "blame" is not useful, but since it was the title of the thread, it seemed necessary to address.

 

So often you hear the BS saying they kept asking what was wrong or begged their spouse to go to MC. Then they come here and are often told by others that the affair was their fault. Or are told that the "problems" that led to the affair were their fault... The thing is, when those BS have done everything in their power to avert the tragedy, and the WS has gone merrily along "blaming" them for everything, taking no responsibility for resolving problems, at some point it becomes moot.

 

Of course there is responsibility at all levels, but Americans, at least, have this weird dichotomy of blaming some people (BS) for their own pain, while at the same time relieving others (WS and OP) of responsibility for theirs.

 

Sometimes I need to be as utterly unreasonable as some of the other posters I read... (I'd put a smiley face here but I'm on a blackberry and can't make it work)

[pkn06002]

Interest that OWoman gives a specific example and that example is just brushed aside.

 

Well I will give you another one.

 

For about two years I tried to engage my wife in the problems that were in our marriage. Talked, tried to get her out always meet her needs, leaving mine to the side. She figured she was happy so I must be also.

 

Then someone walked into my life that meet all my needs and I entered into an affair.

 

So I do I qualify for this small minority that is stated as irrelevant?

 

I let my BS know there were problems and I was ignored and brushed aside.

[Dexter Morgan]

Interest that OWoman gives a specific example and that example is just brushed aside.

 

Well I will give you another one.

 

For about two years I tried to engage my wife in the problems that were in our marriage. Talked, tried to get her out always meet her needs, leaving mine to the side. She figured she was happy so I must be also.

 

Then someone walked into my life that meet all my needs and I entered into an affair.

 

So I do I qualify for this small minority that is stated as irrelevant?

 

I let my BS know there were problems and I was ignored and brushed aside.

 

You must have missed this just above your post: "Of course there is responsibility at all levels, but Americans, at least, have this weird dichotomy of blaming some people (BS) for their own pain, while at the same time relieving others (WS and OP) of responsibility for theirs."

 

You blame your wife, you always blame your wife.

[NoIDidn't]

Research shows that in most cases, the WS bears the bulk of the responsibility for pre-A issues. Makes sense, they are liars and poor communicators and poor problem solvers to begin with. Not exactly marriage material.

 

No one wants to talk about research because then they get into the stats and other things that they like to say aren't reliable.

 

But I agree with you. And its not some Dr. Phil research either. Its research as done by actual marriage counsellors and the conclusions they've drawn from couples in sessions with them over years.

 

It was noticed that whether the marriage was saved or not, the WS was the ONE with the problems and contributing MOSTLY to the problems pre-A. What was specifically stated was that the WS was famous for under-delivering and over-demanding. They were less invested in the marital relationship. They expected marriage to be about them and their needs and didn't consider that the other had the right to have their needs met or conflict would ensue.

 

So how ANY of this leads anyone to the conclusion that the BS bears any responsibility is baffling.

 

Anyone remember seeing books and magazine articles on how to "affair-proof" your marriage? Anyone notice that you don't see those kinds of articles anymore?

 

The BS is usually the one initiating communication that is usually shut down by the WS (both pre-A and during the A). The BS does initiate conversations that often end in conflict, disagreement, or outright arguments. But that doesn't make them the problem.

 

It is being said here by those who have been the WS mostly, that the marriage can't be saved if both won't work on it. Can anyone tell me of a WS that was actually trying to save their marriage by cheating and lying about it? It certainly takes two to save a marriage. But a cheater has abdicated responsibility and it seems apparent that the OPs are more than happy to help them continue with this line of faulty reasoning.