To AGreatWife re: "Responsibility, blame and outcome"

[NoIDidn't]

You know what would have been EXTREMELY refreshing in your post and in your subsequent posts? If you had ALSO included (besides the fact that the OW should feel "guilty" and the H is at "fault") that everyone in an A is a responsible adult - and that includes the BW. How about owning up to the BS's role when it comes to "responsibility, blame and outcome"?

 

Why should AGW refresh you with a lie? In most cases there are only two people in a marriage - the Husband and the Wife. And there are only two people in an Affair - the Married Person and the Affair Partner.

 

Forgive me, but I fail to see where the Betrayed took part in the Affair. So how about you owning up to the OWs role when it comes to "responsibility, blame, and outcome"? Seeing as you were the OW.

 

I don't understand why people think that just because you're "married" somehow that means that your R is "immune" to an A? After all, don't a lot of dating-relationships breakup because one or the other cheated?

 

Forgive my ignorance again, but I have to say this. In most dating relationships when a person cheats, we walk because we don't have to legally break up. There is generally no legally shared property. And we figure if they will cheat when we are semi-committed, why bother marrying them.

 

It is a little naive to think that a marriage is totally immune to cheating, but the vows did include fidelity. I don't think I've ever had a boyfriend vow to never cheat on me...

 

I don't understand why people put their marriages (which I assume are important to them) on auto-pilot/cruise-control. Humans are not machines. They crash (sometimes) when no one is watching the wheel.

 

Remember your oft used, while misplaced, quote "It takes two to tango"? When are you gonna stop blaming the Betrayed for the choices of the Cheater? If it takes two to tango, then isn't the cheater responsible for putting the relationship on cruise control too? You're double-standard (and obvious bias) is showing again.

 

I say this because I watched my bestfriend's H get involved in an A. Her husband was (and is) a good man. And the reason I never took her side and said what a horrible person the H was for "doing this to her", was because I saw the flags with my own two eyes (she treated H like a roommate, they barely talked, she was too involved with her son). While I had enough tact to not point out all the reason why the A may have happened, I did tell her that I thought it takes "two to tango".

 

What a Friend, you are? Were you his OW? One doesn't need to take sides to feel empathy for another person's pain. You might as well have just told her "You deserve it". Geesh.

 

And from what I've read in the infidelity forums - a lot of BS say "I knew the marriage hadn't been great in a while but....". But WHAT? You decided it was going to fix itself? You thought it would get better?

 

I'll give you one better, something you obviously haven't considered: they knew they couldn't save the marriage by themselves. If the other spouse is out cheating, just how much do you think THEY are trying to save the marriage?

 

I'm not advocating A's nor am I discounting the hurt and pain that BS go through after the discovery. But dang it, A's don't happen in a vacuum, and EVERYONE should admit they had a hand in it. Including the BS.

 

Affairs do happen in vacuums when the OP thinks that the BS must know or just ignoring problems at home. I don't know about you, but I bet you'd never admit to having a hand in her marriage, so why do you expect anyone to admit that they had a hand in someone else's affair?

[TOWinNYC]

Why should AGW refresh you with a lie? In most cases there are only two people in a marriage - the Husband and the Wife. And there are only two people in an Affair - the Married Person and the Affair Partner.

 

If the marriage is "part" of an affair, and both spouses are "part" of the marriage, wouldn't you say the BS is "part" of the equation?

 

Forgive me, but I fail to see where the Betrayed took part in the Affair. So how about you owning up to the OWs role when it comes to "responsibility, blame, and outcome"? Seeing as you were the OW.

 

Well, seeing that you're a BS, I guess you fail to see how we are all responsible for our own actions, thoughts, feeling AND choices.

 

The CS is responsible for his/her actions to cheat and should own up to the fact that it was their choice to cheat. The OP is responsible for his/her actions and should own up to the choice to take part in an affair.

 

And the BS is responsible for his/her actions WITHIN THE MARRIAGE and should own up to that!

 

Forgive my ignorance again, but I have to say this. In most dating relationships when a person cheats, we walk because we don't have to legally break up. There is generally no legally shared property. And we figure if they will cheat when we are semi-committed, why bother marrying them.

 

I beg to differ. There are plenty of people who are in relationships and continue to stay when their SO cheats - for all the reasons why BS will stay with a CS. Just because two people are NOT married, does not mean they do not own property together or have other legal obligations.

 

It is a little naive to think that a marriage is totally immune to cheating, but the vows did include fidelity. I don't think I've ever had a boyfriend vow to never cheat on me...

 

I agree. I think one SHOULD expect fidelity in a marriage. I'm just saying that no one is immune to an Affair. And perhaps if people kept that in mind, they would take care of something as precious as a marriage the way they should instead of taking it for granted.

 

Remember your oft used, while misplaced, quote "It takes two to tango"? When are you gonna stop blaming the Betrayed for the choices of the Cheater? If it takes two to tango, then isn't the cheater responsible for putting the relationship on cruise control too? You're double-standard (and obvious bias) is showing again.

 

Okay - I never said that the BS "made" their spouse cheat. That was a decision the CS made all on their own. And yes, I do think the cheater is also responsible for putting the relationship on cruise control.

 

But since the cheater is obviously in selfish-mode (and I think the act to cheat is only one aspect of it), why isn't this confronted and dealt with within the marriage? And if it is and nothing is solved (ie. decisions made and actions taken) I don't think one can cry foul when they have made the CHOICE to stay.

 

What a Friend, you are? Were you his OW? One doesn't need to take sides to feel empathy for another person's pain. You might as well have just told her "You deserve it". Geesh.

 

We're great friends. Have been and continue to be. And no, I was not "his OW" *eye roll*.

 

I'll give you one better, something you obviously haven't considered: they knew they couldn't save the marriage by themselves. If the other spouse is out cheating, just how much do you think THEY are trying to save the marriage?

 

It takes two people to make a marriage work so it can be said that the inverse is true as well. No marriage can be saved when 100% of the effort is being made by just one person (50%).

 

Affairs do happen in vacuums when the OP thinks that the BS must know or just ignoring problems at home. I don't know about you, but I bet you'd never admit to having a hand in her marriage, so why do you expect anyone to admit that they had a hand in someone else's affair?

 

NO it does not. Affairs DO NOT happen in vacuums.

 

Maybe one-night-stands might "happen in a vacuum" but Affairs that span years and encompass emotional and physical aspects do not. Once again, if the cheating spouse is a serial ONS type - that's different.

[Montclair0011]

ToWinNY - Right NOTHING happens in a vacuum, but that proves my point, not yours. Every affair is different, although patterns may be seen. It is not fair to just generalize that the BS has a part to play equal to the cheating spouse and OW/OM. I keep harping on this point because it's a common assumption and, frankly I'm sick of it.

 

With the economy in a turmoil, we are bound to see an increase in miserable marriages staying together for the sake of the kids and keeping a roof over everyone's heads. For some couples this situation will lead to an appreciation of what they have and a pulling together to get through. But I'm guessing there will also be lots of miserable people looking for a part-time escapes to fantasy love connections (sans paying bills, dealing with kids, and the hard work of cohabitation). The validity of these A's is questionable without the courage of the married spouse taking a stand and leaving the marriage for a chance of a real relationship with the O. Seems more like a convenient, if stressful, outlet for the married spouse and misery for the BS and OW/OM and all children and pets included.

 

But that is just one scenario. There are plenty of others with different distributions of power and emotion. Maybe you really had a relationship with a man truly trapped in a situation with a woman who was so asleep at the wheel or abusive that she deserved to be emotionally abandoned but I doubt that's the norm. And so what if the spouse is a louse--the miserable partner should leave, not cheat. Most are too cowardly to take that path so they choose cheating as the path of least pain and disruption. But THEY choose that and THEY are responsible for the choice, not the BS who had no part to play in the choice.

[tami-chan]

The BS crying foul is understandable and expected. The CS can cry foul in some cases, too. Many marriage vows include "to cherish", "to support", "to care" "to encourage", "to nurture"---so if somebody in a marriage feels neglected ( say if the other is emotionally distant or a workaholic or takes the other for granted, etc), doesn't that count as "breaking the vows"? Many BS admit to having "taken the other for granted", "to having been emotionally distant", 'not supportive of the other's interests....etc..I guess that is why many experts say, cheating is just a symptom of what really ails the marriage.

[Reggie]

The BS crying foul is understandable and expected. The CS can cry foul in some cases, too. Many marriage vows include "to cherish", "to support", "to care" "to encourage", "to nurture"---so if somebody in a marriage feels neglected ( say if the other is emotionally distant or a workaholic or takes the other for granted, etc), doesn't that count as "breaking the vows"? Many BS admit to having "taken the other for granted", "to having been emotionally distant", 'not supportive of the other's interests....etc..I guess that is why many experts say, cheating is just a symptom of what really ails the marriage.

 

Reaearch shows it is more often the WS that is bringing less to the pre=A marriage. Nevertheless, neglect is not the same as actrively breaking one's vows. I think at vaious points in a marriage, with all the preesuers like bills, kids, etc. each spouse will neglect the neeeds of the other for some period of time. But, just like the neglect does not justify domestic abuse, it does not justify cheating(the most severe form of emotional abuse). The dissatisfied spouse just has too many other honorable options to address dissatisfaction to play the cheating card as a solution.

Most marriage experts will also say that cheating is a symptom of a big deficiency in the WS's character.

[Montclair0011]

The BS crying foul is understandable and expected. The CS can cry foul in some cases, too. Many marriage vows include "to cherish", "to support", "to care" "to encourage", "to nurture"---so if somebody in a marriage feels neglected ( say if the other is emotionally distant or a workaholic or takes the other for granted, etc), doesn't that count as "breaking the vows"? Many BS admit to having "taken the other for granted", "to having been emotionally distant", 'not supportive of the other's interests....etc..I guess that is why many experts say, cheating is just a symptom of what really ails the marriage.

 

Tami-chan - This is exactly the mindset I have been arguing against. NO, cheating is NOT automatically A SYMPTOM of what ails the marriage. That's just the convenient bucket for some "experts" (especially those on TV) and especially for the CS.

 

This perception allows the CS unfair justification to cheat without talking responsiblity for their actions. Not sure this is typical (I think it is) but that's how my husband tried to handle it. He tried to keep the affair a secret and just went on and on about how our marriage was over and how I had never met his needs etc. When I asked him about his relationship with the OW he said they were just friends, but admitted that maybe there was a chance that something conincidental might happen after his worthless marriage was over. He just kept saying over and over again that the marriage was over because of ME and that there was no one else involved. His big plan was to end the marriage because of ME and my not meeting his needs and then suddenly a short time later emerge publically with the girlfriend and say, "Oh, we were both alone after this unfufilling marriage and found each other--how nice." Meanwhile if the BS beleives this BS (and I've seen lots of cases where they do) they unfairly blame themselves for the end of what was perhaps a savable marriage had the CS not had an A.

 

So, once agian---lots of spouses feel ignored, but that does not mean that their spouses DESERVE to be cheated on. Also sometimes a spouse FEELS ignored, and that may be more related to the psychology of the spouse than in reality. Clearly better communication, MC, or even separation/divorce are acceptable choices. Choosing an A is wrong, wrong, wrong and often a cowadly way of dealing with a situation without having to make real change.

[tami-chan]

Tami-chan - This is exactly the mindset I have been arguing against. NO, cheating is NOT automatically A SYMPTOM of what ails the marriage. That's just the convenient bucket for some "experts" (especially those on TV) and especially for the CS.

 

Nothing is AUTOMATIC. Not one reason or explanation works for everything. It is silly to think that. If there is a "one size fits all" then we won't be here.

 

But you are right, CHEATING is NOT the ANSWER. I think that has been established many times over. It IS the moving forward that is being mostly discussed here-whether one decides to stay or leave or forgive or not.

 

This perception allows the CS unfair justification to cheat without talking responsiblity for their actions.

 

To many this admission of problems in the marriage is not JUST a perception. It is their truth. It is not a justification to cheat, I agree but yes, many WS will use that as a justification. That is why if a couple wants to save the marriage, it calls for honest introspection, honest communication. Otherwise there is no point in staying or "fighting" for the marriage.

 

Not sure this is typical (I think it is) but that's how my husband tried to handle it. He tried to keep the affair a secret and just went on and on about how our marriage was over and how I had never met his needs etc. When I asked him about his relationship with the OW he said they were just friends, but admitted that maybe there was a chance that something conincidental might happen after his worthless marriage was over. He just kept saying over and over again that the marriage was over because of ME and that there was no one else involved. His big plan was to end the marriage because of ME and my not meeting his needs and then suddenly a short time later emerge publically with the girlfriend and say, "Oh, we were both alone after this unfufilling marriage and found each other--how nice."

So I take it you are not in that marriage anymore? It is obvious that he was unwilling to work on the marriage or valued you in the marriage.

 

Meanwhile if the BS beleives this BS (and I've seen lots of cases where they do) they unfairly blame themselves for the end of what was perhaps a savable marriage had the CS not had an A.

Yes, and I guess that is why many here advocate IC, so a BS can separate the truth from the lies and move on-separate from the WS life (or "his/her" truth). And hopefully, will not have to require "closure" via the WS. I find it annoying when a BS cannot move on until she/he has closure--meaning, until the WS admits to the error of his ways, or ask forgiveness, etc.

 

... a cowadly way of dealing with a situation without having to make real change.

I somewhat agree with this. It is a passive-aggressive way of dealing with the problems. Many WSs feel having a secret life is a doable alternative than having to deal with the drama that usually comes with confronting the issues in the marriage. Again, it does not make it right.

[Reggie]

IC is very helpful in getting over this. It gave me some perspective on why I was willing to tolerate the abuse in my marriage for such a long time. And, it helped me clarify my contributions vs the amazing justifications from my XWW.

It opened my eyes to personality disorders, something I knew nothing about and made me realize there was nothing I could have done differently except to have ended the marriage sooner.

If you have a remorseless, blameshifting WS, you need ot get out.

[NoIDidn't]

TOWinNYC

 

The fact that I was once betrayed has nothing to do with my opinion. People who have never been betrayed share it. Its called personal responsibility. But you keep attempting to make another person's actions the responsibility of the betrayed. It doesn't work that way.

 

You are wrong. Plain and simple. How can a person be a part of something that they don't know existed? Regardless of the amount of years, you think, were invested by the cheater. The years of the affair just mean that there was another person deluded enough to ignore that the marriage still existed while they didn't get the MP all to themselves.

 

You said it yourself, in the part I did read, that the BS is responsible for their part of the Marriage. No need to capitalize it. Its what I've been saying all along. But a marriage is not an affair. This is not a matter of semantics. Marriage doesn't equal affair, so the BS has no part in the AFFAIR.

 

I can't make heads or tails of your "inverse is true" statement, as I was talking about the BS being aware that the Cheater is NOT trying to work on the marriage (whether or not they know about the cheating, something is distracting the Cheater making them not focus on the marriage).

 

Maybe you and your friend that was betrayed are the best of friends, but when a person is hurting like that is not the time to tell them to own something that isn't theirs. She may well have done the things that you claim forced her husband into an affair, but it doesn't make his choice to cheat her fault. His choice, his fault. My husband doesn't smoke, but if he did and I used to by his cigars and one day he dies of lung cancer - I don't expect anyone to tell me in my mourning that I contributed to his death by buying cigars for him. He smoked them BUT most importantly, I'm already grieving. Not the time to start floating crazy theories that blame the hurting.

 

I still feel that you are beyond wrong, and I am sure that you will insist that you are not. So, we just have to (grudgingly) agree to disagree.

 

...Shake....(extends hand)

[NoIDidn't]

I find it annoying when a BS cannot move on until she/he has closure--meaning, until the WS admits to the error of his ways, or ask forgiveness, etc.

 

This is a little off-topic, but I agree and especially when it comes to the OPs.

 

Its annoying when BSs do it, but at least they actually had a binding marriage/family in the event that they want closure. But most OPs don't have anything to tie them to the MPs real life and family (they are usually hidden from it). So its really annoying when the OPs do it.

 

I do accept that while I find it annoying, its certainly their (BSs and OPs) right. Just my thoughts.

[tami-chan]

This is a little off-topic, but I agree and or especially when it comes to the OPs.

 

Its annoying when BSs do it, but at least they actually had a binding marriage/family in the event that they want closure. But most OPs don't have anything to tie them to the MPs real life and family (they are usually hidden from it). So its really annoying when the OPs do it.

 

I do accept that while I find it annoying, its certainly their (BSs and OPs) right. Just my thoughts.

 

 

You are right. It is annoying to all parties. If you to want move on...move on! This need for "closure" is hampering your progress, the closure is this: The CS or MP has not met your criteria or standards or has not met your needs, that's it.

[tami-chan]

You are wrong. Plain and simple. How can a person be a part of something that they don't know existed? Regardless of the amount of years, you think, were invested by the cheater. The years of the affair just mean that there was another person deluded enough to ignore that the marriage still existed while they didn't get the MP all to themselves.

 

You said it yourself, in the part I did read, that the BS is responsible for their part of the Marriage. No need to capitalize it. Its what I've been saying all along. But a marriage is not an affair. This is not a matter of semantics. Marriage doesn't equal affair, so the BS has no part in the AFFAIR.

 

Do BSs then even though they know there are problems in the marriage do not ever think that a dissatisfied, unfulfilled, unhappy spouse might cheat or leave the marriage? That's just naivete.

 

You are right, the BS has no part in the AFFAIR-but it is a big possibility that the BS has a part on what LEAD to the affair.

[Montclair0011]

Do BSs then even though they know there are problems in the marriage do not ever think that a dissatisfied, unfulfilled, unhappy spouse might cheat or leave the marriage? That's just naivete.

 

You are right, the BS has no part in the AFFAIR-but it is a big possibility that the BS has a part on what LEAD to the affair.

 

tami-chan - you are just not getting it. Throughout my marriage I was terrified my husband would leave me. I would lay awake and just try to promise myself that I would do better tomorrow and try to become the person he wanted me to be (a stepford wife devoted to him). I stayed at a job I hated because he wanted us to have the good income. If there were two pieces of meat on a plate, I always made sure he got the better one. He critisized everything I did and I totally thought it was all my fault, as though if I could just do a better job of cleaning the house, or attending to him he would appreciate me. This is what it is like living as an abused woman.

 

And then one day my nightmare came true, almost exactly as I pictured it.

 

The only difference was that instead of ending up a homeless lunatic, I reached out to friends and got a therapist and took one baby step after another to healing. I came to see that it was not my fault and that my husband's temper and need for control was the major issue in the marriage, not the way I hung clothing on incorrect hangers.

 

I had worked hard at making my marriage work (and I think that was why it lasted so long -- 20 years) so it was painful to hear people say to me point blank--"well both sides are responsible" It was like a kick in the stomach.

 

I admit I had a part to play in that I allowed myself to be abused and used as a doormat. BUT I did not cause him to cheat. He felt entittled to do everything and anything he wanted to me because he's mean and selfish. From what I've heard, he and his girlfiriend have big blowup fights and she's insanely jelous (as she should be considering how he hooked up with her). But that's the way he does relationships--take it or leave it.

[bentnotbroken]

Montclair, I understand your particular situation better than I am comfortable admitting. I did almost the same things. I always took responsibility for our issues because Mr. Messy said they were my fault. I on the other hand, had some mental issues that I wasn't aware that I couldn't control without medication and help. I just assumed my anger and acting out came from my resentment of never having my needs met and being told it was my fault that they weren't. I should have run screaming when he told me if I did what he thought I should be doing, then he would take me to the promised land:eek:

 

At that time I had no relationship with God, so I believed only Mr. Messy could do all I needed if I only did what he wanted. For years I made him my God and tried to please him. Big mistake on my part. It almost cost me my life. My angry would explode into violence against others and myself until I was just too tired to go on. I wanted to end it all.

 

I never thought he would cheat, because it was something we discussed before marriage(and signed an agreement) and revisited every anniversary. I had no idea that he violated that agreement a couple of years after we married. Had he not been busted with the last A, I wouldn't know about the previous ones. I had suspicions on occasion, but he always gave me a good reason and I had no reason not to trust him.

 

I did play a part in the problems, some unknowingly others knowingly, but I didn't expect an A to be the end result, divorce maybe, but never cheating. I thought he had more integrity, was more honest, more faithful to his God(if not to me) than to cheat. I was so wrong. He isn't the man I thought he was or do I think he will ever be the man I thought he was. Pity, he gave me great kids. That possibly was the best he had to offer.

[tami-chan]

tami-chan - you are just not getting it

Sorry, Montclair0011. I am not sure what it is that I didn't get. I get that fact that some people cheat regardless if their SO is perfect. So you are one of those who is totally blameless, but what about the rest who ACTUALLY accept that they had a hand in the problems in their marriage?

 

Throughout my marriage I was terrified my husband would leave me. I would lay awake and just try to promise myself that I would do better tomorrow and try to become the person he wanted me to be (a stepford wife devoted to him). I stayed at a job I hated because he wanted us to have the good income. If there were two pieces of meat on a plate, I always made sure he got the better one. He critisized everything I did and I totally thought it was all my fault, as though if I could just do a better job of cleaning the house, or attending to him he would appreciate me. This is what it is like living as an abused woman.

ahmm...Jesus, you needed help! I do not mean to be rude, but people who are doormats are not exciting. How would anyone see your worth if you did not think you were worthy?

 

I had worked hard at making my marriage work (and I think that was why it lasted so long -- 20 years) so it was painful to hear people say to me point blank--"well both sides are responsible" It was like a kick in the stomach.

It lasted long because you were willing to take his er...crap. And he saw that you were a willing victim.

 

I admit I had a part to play in that I allowed myself to be abused and used as a doormat. BUT I did not cause him to cheat.

I don't know you and if you say you're not, then you are not. Most BSs are NOT the cause of the cheating. It can be a number of things-dissatisfaction, selfishness, entitlement, etc. I don't know if this makes sense....it's kinda like the "loving the sin but not sinner"scenario . The BS is not the cause of the cheating, it is the actions or inactions of either party that LEAD to the cheating....again, there those who do not fit this scenario.

 

But that's the way he does relationships--take it or leave it.

and you took it? despite of yourself? or you left...<hope you left>.

 

I have a question for you...so if your husband said one day...."I am not happy with you and I want to be with this OW"...you would have let him go without fuss?

[TOWinNYC]

TOWinNYC

 

The fact that I was once betrayed has nothing to do with my opinion. People who have never been betrayed share it. Its called personal responsibility. But you keep attempting to make another person's actions the responsibility of the betrayed. It doesn't work that way.

 

NID - are we talking about the same thing? Because you keep insisting that I'm saying something that I'm not. I never said the CS's actions are the BS's fault. What I did say was that the BS is responsible for their own actions within the marriage.

 

You are wrong. Plain and simple. How can a person be a part of something that they don't know existed? Regardless of the amount of years' date=' you think, were invested by the cheater. The years of the affair just mean that there was another person deluded enough to ignore that the marriage still existed while they didn't get the MP all to themselves.[/quote']

 

I'm not wrong. Every BS "knows" when something is wrong whether they think the cause is an Affair or not. And they can choose to confront it or bury their head in the sand....it's their choice. I've known and spoken to more than one BS - and every single one told me there was a moment when they "knew". They may claim to people that they had no idea (much more socially acceptable to play the bewildered victim) but the truth is NO ONE is stupid enough to "not know".

 

You said it yourself, in the part I did read, that the BS is responsible for their part of the Marriage. No need to capitalize it. Its what I've been saying all along. But a marriage is not an affair. This is not a matter of semantics. Marriage doesn't equal affair, so the BS has no part in the AFFAIR.

 

I can't make heads or tails of your "inverse is true" statement, as I was talking about the BS being aware that the Cheater is NOT trying to work on the marriage (whether or not they know about the cheating, something is distracting the Cheater making them not focus on the marriage).

 

Really? What's so hard to understand that "it takes two people to make a marriage work and it takes two people to make it fail"? It's pretty simple.

 

Maybe you and your friend that was betrayed are the best of friends, but when a person is hurting like that is not the time to tell them to own something that isn't theirs. She may well have done the things that you claim forced her husband into an affair, but it doesn't make his choice to cheat her fault. His choice, his fault. My husband doesn't smoke, but if he did and I used to by his cigars and one day he dies of lung cancer - I don't expect anyone to tell me in my mourning that I contributed to his death by buying cigars for him. He smoked them BUT most importantly, I'm already grieving. Not the time to start floating crazy theories that blame the hurting.

 

I still feel that you are beyond wrong, and I am sure that you will insist that you are not. So, we just have to (grudgingly) agree to disagree.

 

...Shake....(extends hand)

 

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. As long as there are people here on the board insisting that Cheating Spouses are evil and Affair Partners are immoral, I will have to insist that Betrayed Spouses are also responsible for their own actions (NOT for the Affair!).

 

Shake (takes hand and shakes).

[SidLyon]

I'm not wrong. Every BS "knows" when something is wrong whether they think the cause is an Affair or not. And they can choose to confront it or bury their head in the sand....it's their choice. I've known and spoken to more than one BS - and every single one told me there was a moment when they "knew". They may claim to people that they had no idea (much more socially acceptable to play the bewildered victim) but the truth is NO ONE is stupid enough to "not know".

 

 

 

Well I guess you are calling me and others like me "stupid" then - I genuinely had no idea.

 

S

[HeidiB125]

I guess I'm stupid too then. I had NO idea that my husband was having an affair. I knew our marriage wasn't going well and I did have it in the back of my mind that he may one day come to me with the fact that he met someone who he had grown to care for but NEVER did I think he would have an affair and there was NO sign of it. He said himself that they kept it limited to work hours and lunch time and there wasn't really anyway that I could have found out. People at their job didn't seem to realize what was going on...so they were very diligent in hiding it.

[Dexter Morgan]

You are right, the BS has no part in the AFFAIR-but it is a big possibility that the BS has a part on what LEAD to the affair.

 

then I guess the BS can then go out and have a little fun of their own....make the WS stay at home with the kids for a change.

[jwi71]

Do BSs then even though they know there are problems in the marriage do not ever think that a dissatisfied, unfulfilled, unhappy spouse might cheat or leave the marriage? That's just naivete.

 

You are right, the BS has no part in the AFFAIR-but it is a big possibility that the BS has a part on what LEAD to the affair.

 

Not all BS are aware that the M is in "trouble".

OR maybe they do NOT perceive the depth of it as the WS - or potential WS does.

 

And in that the WS must speak up and communicate. And in a clear manner that is unambiguous nor hidden in innuendo that he/she is unhappy and why.

 

Here's a REAL example (mine):

 

W (now stbxw) unhappy the H (me) is working 60+ hours per week. Says nothing but enjoys her 60K BMW, shopping trips, maids and everything afforded to her by H's long hours. How can a future BS decipher that?

 

And that's how a BS can be blind sided...

[bentnotbroken]

I guess I am in good company, I was stupid too. Proud of it actually. It means I trusted him enough and thought he had enough integrity to let him have a life without being constantly with me. Silly me.

[Dexter Morgan]

I guess I am in good company, I was stupid too. Proud of it actually. It means I trusted him enough and thought he had enough integrity to let him have a life without being constantly with me. Silly me.

 

Yup, me too. You are in good company;)

[Reggie]

It is a complete fallacy that the BS should know that problems in a marriage would lead to cheating. First, the vows we all take did not include the caveat "uless there are problems" or "unless I feel my needs etc..."

 

If you cannot rely on another's pledge, that is F'ed up. Do folks really believe that there will be no problems, no dissatisfactions in their marriages such that when they encounter them they feel justified in cheating? This is absurd and a complete rationalization my OP's and WSs.

I chalnege any OW/OM to have a relationship with a WS , long term , and see if problems do not arise.

Normal , healthy people resolve problems honorably, not by cheating. If you have spouse that will not address problems, you can get out, honestly. But, why do all this lying and hurting others. It is utter cowardice.

[tami-chan]

Not all BS are aware that the M is in "trouble".

OR maybe they do NOT perceive the depth of it as the WS - or potential WS does.

 

And in that the WS must speak up and communicate. And in a clear manner that is unambiguous nor hidden in innuendo that he/she is unhappy and why.

 

Here's a REAL example (mine):

 

W (now stbxw) unhappy the H (me) is working 60+ hours per week. Says nothing but enjoys her 60K BMW, shopping trips, maids and everything afforded to her by H's long hours. How can a future BS decipher that?

 

And that's how a BS can be blind sided...

 

Jwi71, where did you find "ALL"? goodness, I guess it doesn't matter when there are disclaimers of "some" and the like. Goodness....!

 

You see, even if the BS was not really aware or did not realized the depth or severity of the issues in the marriage, when the other checks out emotionally-or partly checks-out because of it, one has to recognize it-because it is his/her truth. Counseling could/would help in separating false perceptions and all of that if you want to work on the marriage or "fight" for the marriage (I hate this term). It boils down to, TADA!!!! ---> good communicaton!

[jwi71]

Jwi71, where did you find "ALL"? goodness, I guess it doesn't matter when there are disclaimers of "some" and the like. Goodness....!

 

My interpretation of your post.

Which is oddly appropriate since, as you later say, good communication is paramount to success.

 

You see, even if the BS was not really aware or did not realized the depth or severity of the issues in the marriage, when the other checks out emotionally-or partly checks-out because of it, one has to recognize it-because it is his/her truth. Counseling could/would help in separating false perceptions and all of that if you want to work on the marriage or "fight" for the marriage (I hate this term). It boils down to, TADA!!!! ---> good communicaton!

 

If you are saying the BS must recognize distance as unhappiness...I disagree. Especially when the WS 1) says nothing and 2) has no discernible behavior change.

 

Like you say, the WS must communicate. And I would add "unambiguously the breadth and depth of his/her unhappiness" INSTEAD of saying "the BS should have seen/felt/sensed it coming".

 

Otherwise, to me, WS shirk the blame of the A. Ultimately, they cheated instead of communicating and trying to "fix" the issue.