TOWinNYC Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 AGW - I didn't see a response from you except that you moved your post here. Rather curious to see what you think of mine. You know what would have been EXTREMELY refreshing in your post and in your subsequent posts? If you had ALSO included (besides the fact that the OW should feel "guilty" and the H is at "fault") that everyone in an A is a responsible adult - and that includes the BW. How about owning up to the BS's role when it comes to "responsibility, blame and outcome"? I don't understand why people think that just because you're "married" somehow that means that your R is "immune" to an A? After all, don't a lot of dating-relationships breakup because one or the other cheated? I don't understand why people put their marriages (which I assume are important to them) on auto-pilot/cruise-control. Humans are not machines. They crash (sometimes) when no one is watching the wheel. I say this because I watched my bestfriend's H get involved in an A. Her husband was (and is) a good man. And the reason I never took her side and said what a horrible person the H was for "doing this to her", was because I saw the flags with my own two eyes (she treated H like a roommate, they barely talked, she was too involved with her son). While I had enough tact to not point out all the reason why the A may have happened, I did tell her that I thought it takes "two to tango". And from what I've read in the infidelity forums - a lot of BS say "I knew the marriage hadn't been great in a while but....". But WHAT? You decided it was going to fix itself? You thought it would get better? I'm not advocating A's nor am I discounting the hurt and pain that BS go through after the discovery. But dang it, A's don't happen in a vacuum, and EVERYONE should admit they had a hand in it. Including the BS.
whichwayisup Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 How about owning up to the BS's role when it comes to "responsibility, blame and outcome"? A BS is responsible for her/his part in the problems during the marriage. If the WS CHOOSES to cheat, that is the WS's choice and fault NOT the BS's. I get so sick and tired of hearing some around here that blame the BS for the WS choice to cheat. IT IS THE WS's responsibility and fault, and HE/SHE has to OWN that, not the BS.
EnigmaXOXO Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 I don't understand why people think that just because you're "married" somehow that means that your R is "immune" to an A? After all, don't a lot of dating-relationships breakup because one or the other cheated? No relationship is immune to the poor choices of others unless both people in it remain responsible to themselves and their partner... equally. However, the fact the other couple happens to be married or engaged in a committed relationship means that their lives (for better or worse) absolutely deserves to be immune from me. No matter how sympathetic or apathetic I might feel towards one or the other... or how desperate and lonely my own life has become. Responsibility starts and ends with ourselves. The buck stops there. No scapegoating or blame shifting if you “choose” to partake in a situation you know darn well is deceitful towards another. Nothing you can do to polish that terd and try to sell it as anything other than what it is. People have a pretty good nose for bullcrap even when they don’t seem to mind the smell of their own.
Mr. Lucky Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 You know what would have been EXTREMELY refreshing in your post and in your subsequent posts? If you had ALSO included (besides the fact that the OW should feel "guilty" and the H is at "fault") that everyone in an A is a responsible adult - and that includes the BW. How about owning up to the BS's role when it comes to "responsibility, blame and outcome"? You know, President Lincoln freed the slaves a long time ago. Any spouse that doesn't feel that his or her partner isn't holding up their end of the marriage is free to leave. Has nothing to do with cheating... Mr. Lucky
Montclair0011 Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 TowinNYC - I think you are being unnecessarily harsh here based on your one example where the wife took the husband for granted. Every couple is unique and, in general, I don't think the BS should be blamed for the A. Sure the marriage had problems, but what marriage does not? It's difficult when you are in a marriage to know what to do about problems since some of them are just part and parcel of modern life. Lots of lousy marriages continue without cheating. Also, there are cases where the person that cheats is just incapable of having a normal marriage. We are all overworked and underpaid and some of the stress should just be chalked up and accepted. Some issues are because one partner has a serious issue like drinking, drugs or mental instability. If the person won't even acknowlage the problem, never mind get help, how is it the BS's fault if that person contiues on their self-destructive path and also cheats? My husband and I worked full time and had issues with our child and never enough money. We had sex frequently, but he felt like it was too perfunctory. I wanted it to be better but I was often angry at him but I held it in and tried to be the best wife I could, often feeling inadequate. He was verbally abusive and had an explosive temper so everyone, inclulding the dog walked on eggshells. My husband refused to discuss the impact his temper had on our marriage. As far as he was concerned, all of the issues were because I was a defective person who did not give him the attention he needed. I helped him become sucessful and gave up two careers to stay in a job that I hated for the better paycheck for our family. I sacrificed everything for the good of my family and he said he left because I was too selfish. The guy is nuts, what can I say. I have been a doormat and allowed my self to be treated like garbage and then thrown away like garbage too. BUT, I will not listen to someone tell me that I am somehow responsible for his cheating. That was HIS own doing, based on his percevied pain and insatiable need for attention and his totally self-centered personality. When I found out about the affair I dragged him to two marriage counselers, both of whom threw us out as a hopeless case because of HIM, not me. One of them described him as "out of control" and worried about my physical safety because they thought that I had zero power in the relationship. I should not have put up with his behavior, but I did not cause the cheating. He is likely to do it again with the woman he left me for. Blaming the BS in every case just add to her misery. After he left, I had people tell me that they were sorry, but "well it's two sides and both sides are at fault for the affair" Nothing like kicking a person in pain. Other people asked me point blank about our sex life, assuming that there was none and that I was the guilty party there. In short, I think this idea that everybody has a part to play in infidelity needs to die. The fault of infitidlity should primialy be on the person that does the cheating, not the victums---unless there are clear examples to the contrary (like the other person cheated first).
Dexter Morgan Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 AGW - I didn't see a response from you except that you moved your post here. Rather curious to see what you think of mine. You know what would have been EXTREMELY refreshing in your post and in your subsequent posts? If you had ALSO included (besides the fact that the OW should feel "guilty" and the H is at "fault") that everyone in an A is a responsible adult - and that includes the BW. How about owning up to the BS's role when it comes to "responsibility, blame and outcome"? I think alot of BS's here accept responsibility for their role in the state of the marriage. That doesn't, however, excuse or justify the despicable actions of the WS.
bentnotbroken Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 I think alot of BS's here accept responsibility for their role in the state of the marriage. That doesn't, however, excuse or justify the despicable actions of the WS. Thank you. I am more than willing to take responsibililty for my actions. I continue with my counseling so that I won't slip back into what is comfortable instead of what is right. I didn't place his winky in her twinky.
AGreatWife Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 AGW - I didn't see a response from you except that you moved your post here. Rather curious to see what you think of mine. You know what would have been EXTREMELY refreshing in your post and in your subsequent posts? If you had ALSO included (besides the fact that the OW should feel "guilty" and the H is at "fault") that everyone in an A is a responsible adult - and that includes the BW. How about owning up to the BS's role when it comes to "responsibility, blame and outcome"? I didn't move the post -- someone else did. First, there is a difference between "being a responsible adult" and one's "level of responsibility" as an adult. I think you are referring to the later. Therefore, in answer to your question -- I didn't include a BW's "level of responsibility" in -or- for a MMs affair, because she is not responsible for his choice to do that -- in any way. And, most likely, she is the most 'responsible adult' among the three. The rest of our post is about things you "don't know why?" about, that don't apply to me or my marriage (then or now) such as, perception of immunity from affairs, marriages on autopilot, and the relating of how you emotionally abandoned your friend and laid blame at her doorstep, when her husband cheated on her -- which any comment I might make on that, would disappoint you, since you are looking for something refreshing.
Author TOWinNYC Posted April 20, 2009 Author Posted April 20, 2009 TowinNYC - I think you are being unnecessarily harsh here based on your one example where the wife took the husband for granted. Every couple is unique and, in general, I don't think the BS should be blamed for the A. Sure the marriage had problems, but what marriage does not? It's difficult when you are in a marriage to know what to do about problems since some of them are just part and parcel of modern life. Lots of lousy marriages continue without cheating. Also, there are cases where the person that cheats is just incapable of having a normal marriage. I didn't say the BS should be blamed - I said that they should own up to the fact that yes, they also did, play a part in the "whys" an A might have started. That includes turning a blind eye when you know something is off or not wanting to deal with the issues upfront. We are all overworked and underpaid and some of the stress should just be chalked up and accepted. Some issues are because one partner has a serious issue like drinking, drugs or mental instability. If the person won't even acknowlage the problem, never mind get help, how is it the BS's fault if that person contiues on their self-destructive path and also cheats? Yes, there are stresses in life and some issues are not within your control. But as an adult YOU are responsible for YOURSELF - and if you choose to remain in a situation that is making you unhappy, at least admit it. I should not have put up with his behavior, but I did not cause the cheating. He is likely to do it again with the woman he left me for. Blaming the BS in every case just add to her misery. After he left, I had people tell me that they were sorry, but "well it's two sides and both sides are at fault for the affair" Nothing like kicking a person in pain. Other people asked me point blank about our sex life, assuming that there was none and that I was the guilty party there. Yes, you should not have put up with his behavior and no, you did not "cause" the cheating - but you STAYED in a situation which ultimately lead to an A.
Author TOWinNYC Posted April 20, 2009 Author Posted April 20, 2009 I didn't move the post -- someone else did. First, there is a difference between "being a responsible adult" and one's "level of responsibility" as an adult. I think you are referring to the later. Therefore, in answer to your question -- I didn't include a BW's "level of responsibility" in -or- for a MMs affair, because she is not responsible for his choice to do that -- in any way. And, most likely, she is the most 'responsible adult' among the three. Thanks for the response AGW - maybe we have a different definitions of responsiblity. To me, being a "responsible adult" encompasses all - including my actions, feelings and thoughts. You are correct - the BS is not "responsible" for the WS's actions. But he/she is responsible for their part in the marriage as well as THEIR OWN feelings and thoughts. If you "feel" like something isn't working right or you "think" something is off in your own marriage - yes, you should own up to the responsibility in confronting that and throwing it on the table. Because if you don't treat your M as preciously as it should be, life is complicated (as proven on LS time and time again), and there's potential for unfortunate things to happen.
Reggie Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 I agree, both parties are responsible for the state of the marriage to varying degrees. And, as others have said, there is a clear distinction between owning a role in some of the problems and taking any responsibility for someone's decision to cheat. One thing that I think bears mentioning is that most of the authors on infidleity I have read seem to have found that in looking at pre-A problems , and their source, almost invariably it is the cheater that was the major contributor. These experets claim that a person with a proclivity for cheating is often a poor communicator and poor problem solver with other issues , liie anger or entitlement, that are the cause of he or she being a less than ideal spouse to begin with. I think almost all BSs look inward upon discovery, trying to figure out what they did that caused this. But, in many cases. this looking inward is a mistake, as the Ws has failed to communicate his or her dissatisfaction and has allowed resentment to build. Simply put, someone that cheats(especially in this day and age with the availability of counseling, divorce or trial seperation) has pretty well demonstrated that he or she lacks the qualities needed to have a healthy relationship. It is much more likely that a BS has,for years, tried to figure out marital problems and to get help, only to be blown off repeatedly by a person expecting clairvoyance and witha huge sense of entitlement and a lack of understanding of reciprocity in meeting needs. BSs have needs, as well, and, most often they are going unmet for a long time.
jnj express Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Both spouses have equal responsibility for the mge., and how and whether it survives, married life is hard, two people living thru problems is hard, all of that relates to the mge., when one of the 2 married partners, strays, and breaks vows, that is completely their choice, and the person who strays may blow problems in the mge., out of proportion to condone their straying, but they and only they made the choice to break their vows. Many times the cheater uses the marriage's problems as a reason to cheat , and puts a lot of hard work into their sneaking around, deceit, hiding, lying, making up stories, and whatever else you want to fit in. WHY didn't they spend that time trying to SERIOUSLY talk to their married partner, and try to work out their problems. Yes there are married situations, that are unsolvable and one of the partners is living a horrible life in a mge. If that is the case then get out of the mge FIRST, then go and date, and sleep around as a single person. BAD MARRIAGES ARE NEVER AN EXCUSE FOR CHEATING, AT ANY TIME.
Montclair0011 Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 TowinNY - I totally disagree. I think you are way off base. What about women married to sociopaths? Are they responsible for their husbands affairs? NO. Sure we all need to take responsbility for choosing to be or stay with an A-hole and not just play innocent victum, but WE did not cause them to cheat!!! That's like an alcaholic that tells his wife that her behavior causes him to cheat. Stop assuming ALL BAs had a part to play in the affair. Some partners are just plain bad. In my case, I DID do something--I dragged my husband to MC. Two therapists threw us out and declared the marriage hopeless because of HIM, not me. They were clear on this! Sure I should not have put up with his crap, but my putting up with his crap did not cause him to have an affair. It kept the relationship going for almost 20 years. I tried to talk to him about my feelings so many times and he just did not get it because it had to be about him. Finally he sucked me dry and left and is now working on someone else. HE HAS problems that NO ONE could have addressed. He's been in therapy for three years now, and he still has little control over his temper. Fortunately, now I just press the END button, or tell him to leave my house. Since the end of my marriage I was for a while involved with a separated man whose wife had cheated on him and whose temper was so bad she made my husband look like Bambi. That woman was responsible for her husband turning elsewhere (she had kicked him out of the house after he behaved badly when her boyfirend came to their home for a visit). But he ended up going back to her and we broke up. He should have left her, but he was not the type to leave a marriage no matter what. Some men just don't cheat and some do, and the partner's behavior does not always have an influence on that outcome. They are back to the same crappy relationship they had before, but by your definition I'm in the same league with people like my ex boyfriend's wife and I don't think it's fair. I did everything I could to try to make my marriage work, although there is no way to know if I always made the right choices. Had I stood up to him, he might have just started cheating earlier. I'm responding to this because your view is quite common and causes much hurt to people who already have enough pain on their plates.
Reggie Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 I had a similar expierience to Montcalir in dealing with a personality disordered spouse(probably a sociopath/NPD/BPD combo platter). It was liie talking to a wall to try to address problems and any mention of counseling by me was met with derision and disdain. There is a high percentage of personality disordered folks among cheaters and I think you would find that stories like mine and Montclair's are not unique. I'd be willing to bet that many BSs tried to address problems in their marriages and implored their spouse to get MC with them only to be met with denial and resistance. So, even if a BS plays a role in the problems, having expressed a willingness to work on them pre-A with no cooperation, how can a BS be held responsible for the state of the marriage? You cannot win with the disordered. Thye avoid counseling and self examination like the plague.
Spark1111 Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 I think the bottom line is deception. I loved and trusted him. He and I were unhappy. I begged to go to counseling. He refused. Okay, I went by myself. I am a grown up. I tried to make it better before I would move on. He crashed into her. Look, at any time we can develop feelings for someone else. The grown up thing to do is communicate that, separate, maybe go to counseling if you remain unsure regarding the salvageability of the marriage, but TELL the truth. It's the lies and deception that ultimately destroy a betrayed spouse, and IMO, the hardest part to recover from.
tami-chan Posted April 24, 2009 Posted April 24, 2009 Yet, many spouses stay in marriages that are plagued with problems-(as evident by the many BSs who admit that their relationships had problems BEFORE the betrayal)then are shocked and hurt and cry "foul" when the other person cheats. If a spouse knows there are existing problems in the marriage do you not think she/he has a responsibility to herself/hmself and the marriage to communicate that to the SO and if the SO does not respond then leave, otherwise you cannot be excused from the fallout of staying in an unfulfilling marriage. Vice-versa to the cheating spouse.
OWoman Posted April 24, 2009 Posted April 24, 2009 I had a similar expierience to Montcalir in dealing with a personality disordered spouse(probably a sociopath/NPD/BPD combo platter). It was liie talking to a wall to try to address problems and any mention of counseling by me was met with derision and disdain. There is a high percentage of personality disordered folks among cheaters and I think you would find that stories like mine and Montclair's are not unique. I'd be willing to bet that many BSs tried to address problems in their marriages and implored their spouse to get MC with them only to be met with denial and resistance. So, even if a BS plays a role in the problems, having expressed a willingness to work on them pre-A with no cooperation, how can a BS be held responsible for the state of the marriage? You cannot win with the disordered. Thye avoid counseling and self examination like the plague. And in several cases it's the BS who's personality disordered, with the WS so mindfreaked that they're "unable" to leave the M for fear of what the BS will do (self harm, hurt the kids, hurt the CS, etc). As a result they develop an underground life, hidden from the CS, where they can preserve some dignity and self-respect by having some "normality" - and, in order to meet their requirement for love, which they're denied by the BS, they accept it from wherever else it's offered. Pathological in its own way perhaps - it's quite a common thing among abused children, battered women and other victims of abuse. That it sometimes leads to an A in adults is unsurprising. But whether a "co-narcissist" or a BNP-enabler is more or less "to blame" than the narcissist or BNP'd person is moot - they're responsible for their (bad) choice of partner, and responsible for staying with them and allowing themselves to be abused and warped into a state where such strategies become necessary, certainly; but just as battered women who kill their abusers are seen as acting in self-defence, so an argument can be made that such actions are similarly self-preservatory.
Reggie Posted April 24, 2009 Posted April 24, 2009 And in several cases it's the BS who's personality disordered, with the WS so mindfreaked that they're "unable" to leave the M for fear of what the BS will do (self harm, hurt the kids, hurt the CS, etc). As a result they develop an underground life, hidden from the CS, where they can preserve some dignity and self-respect by having some "normality" - and, in order to meet their requirement for love, which they're denied by the BS, they accept it from wherever else it's offered. Pathological in its own way perhaps - it's quite a common thing among abused children, battered women and other victims of abuse. That it sometimes leads to an A in adults is unsurprising. But whether a "co-narcissist" or a BNP-enabler is more or less "to blame" than the narcissist or BNP'd person is moot - they're responsible for their (bad) choice of partner, and responsible for staying with them and allowing themselves to be abused and warped into a state where such strategies become necessary, certainly; but just as battered women who kill their abusers are seen as acting in self-defence, so an argument can be made that such actions are similarly self-preservatory. I agree with this. If one is married to an abusive , disordered person , the desire to seek refuge is great.
bentnotbroken Posted April 24, 2009 Posted April 24, 2009 I have been doing research for a class. One of the reports was about why people cheat. More than 40% said it was because of they thought they could do it one time and the spouse never finds out. But the problem is if they get away with it once, human nature is to push the boundaries again and again until caught. As they push the boundaries, they slowly loose respect for the BS because they see them as gullible, inattentive and basically too stupid to pick up on their lies. It also said something like 20% cheat because they think it is their right to do so. The animal argument was what they used, do as many as you can while you can. These same people exhibited the same type traits to a lesser degree in all aspects of their lives. The sense of entitlement. I haven't read anything to support this yet though. I would like to see at least a couple of more studies. Maybe I will do some more digging when I have time.
NoIDidn't Posted April 24, 2009 Posted April 24, 2009 TowinNY - I'm responding to this because your view is quite common and causes much hurt to people who already have enough pain on their plates. Exactly, its common and WRONG. Sometimes, who needs enemies, with friends like this. <smh>
Reggie Posted April 24, 2009 Posted April 24, 2009 There is a huge investment by WSs in placing blame for their cheating on the BS, the marriage, whatever(full moon...). In the depleted state a BS often finds her/himself upon discovery, there is a strong temptation to accept the blame. That is the goal of many WSs. The one thing they cannot get around, even if we accept the often fallacious claims re the BS's deficiencies, is that they had the option to divorce rather than cheat. The Wss arguments also fall short when confronted with the fact that their kids are affected(were the kids deficient?) and that they exposed their BSs to STDs. Even assuming the BS was terrible, how does a WS justify hurting the kids or the STD issue? Cheating is really tough on the kids.
Montclair0011 Posted April 24, 2009 Posted April 24, 2009 EXACTLY! NoIDidn't -- This kind of automatic blaming needs to stop. Every relationship is different and so is the amount of blame. All marriages have probems and most go through trying times. It's not always apparent if a marriage is on the rocks or if a spouse will cheat or leave. The warning signs of failed marriages are frequently seen in non-failed marriages, even where they don't even try to work on the issues.
Reggie Posted April 24, 2009 Posted April 24, 2009 Yet, many spouses stay in marriages that are plagued with problems-(as evident by the many BSs who admit that their relationships had problems BEFORE the betrayal)then are shocked and hurt and cry "foul" when the other person cheats. If a spouse knows there are existing problems in the marriage do you not think she/he has a responsibility to herself/hmself and the marriage to communicate that to the SO and if the SO does not respond then leave, otherwise you cannot be excused from the fallout of staying in an unfulfilling marriage. Vice-versa to the cheating spouse. Well, of course they cry foul. Vows were borken, lies were told, time and resources stolen from the spouse and family. Yeah, I think multiple foul calls are in order.
Reggie Posted April 24, 2009 Posted April 24, 2009 EXACTLY! NoIDidn't -- This kind of automatic blaming needs to stop. Every relationship is different and so is the amount of blame. All marriages have probems and most go through trying times. It's not always apparent if a marriage is on the rocks or if a spouse will cheat or leave. The warning signs of failed marriages are frequently seen in non-failed marriages, even where they don't even try to work on the issues. Are you trying to suggest that if a marriage is not perfect and has problems, cheating is still not okay? What a novel idea.
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