Response to AGreatWife

[TOWinNYC]

AGW -

You know what would have been EXTREMELY refreshing in your post and in your subsequent posts? If you had ALSO included (besides the fact that the OW should feel "guilty" and the H is at "fault") that everyone in an A is a responsible adult - and that includes the BW. How about owning up to the BS's role when it comes to "responsibility, blame and outcome"?

 

I don't understand why people think that just because you're "married" somehow that means that your R is "immune" to an A? After all, don't a lot of dating-relationships breakup because one or the other cheated?

 

I don't understand why people put their marriages (which I assume are important to them) on auto-pilot/cruise-control. Humans are not machines. They crash (sometimes) when no one is watching the wheel.

 

I say this because I watched my bestfriend's H get involved in an A. Her husband was (and is) a good man. And the reason I never took her side and said what a horrible person the H was for "doing this to her", was because I saw the flags with my own two eyes (she treated H like a roommate, they barely talked, she was too involved with her son). While I had enough tact to not point out all the reason why the A may have happened, I did tell her that I thought it takes "two to tango".

 

And from what I've read in the infidelity forums - a lot of BS say "I knew the marriage hadn't been great in a while but....". But WHAT? You decided it was going to fix itself? You thought it would get better?

 

I'm not advocating A's nor am I discounting the hurt and pain that BS go through after the discovery. But dang it, A's don't happen in a vacuum, and EVERYONE should admit they had a hand in it. Including the BS.

[White Flower]

A's don't happen in a vacuum, and EVERYONE should admit they had a hand in it. Including the BS.

Very true!

 

When exH had an EA I constantly looked to myself as a possible reason for his wandering. Was I not loving enough, was I not giving enough, was I not whatever enough. I did a whole lot of soul-searching in order to find my possible role in his decision to have the EA. In the end I think the reason had more to do with him and there was no deed or personality trait I could have altered short of being a bigger doormat than I already was to stop it. But it was paramount that I look inward for answers. I didn't like the OW hanging around but I never had the anger, disgust, and hatred for her as I see on these boards. She had a connection with him like no other and once I realized it had nothing to do with me I didn't need to hate her, not that I did in the first place.

 

Funny, now that we are D'd, she is just a friend of his and he is persuing someone new.

 

Sometimes, we just aren't right for each other. Sometimes this is 'the hand in it'. And most often when this is the case, no amount of counseling will improve it.

[bentnotbroken]

I take full responsibility for the contribution to the breakdown of my marriage. The problems and issues weren't just made or ignored by Mr. Messy. But I will not, now or in the future, own any part in his choice to deal with his issues by sleeping with another man's wife. I didn't make that choice and I was in the same unhappy marriage.

 

Can he partially own the fact that I chose not to cheat..hell no. That was a decision that came from within my heart and my boundaries. Did I want to find fulfillment and love somewhere else..damn skippy. His choice to hurt so many people is all on him.

 

I believe both parties in a marriage are responsible for it's health and well being, but both parties are not responsible for the choices that kill another's trust and emotional health, whether that is drug use, alcoholism, abuse of any kind, financial over indulgence or cheating.

[blinded]

I take full responsibility for the contribution to the breakdown of my marriage. The problems and issues weren't just made or ignored by Mr. Messy. But I will not, now or in the future, own any part in his choice to deal with his issues by sleeping with another man's wife. I didn't make that choice and I was in the same unhappy marriage.

 

Can he partially own the fact that I chose not to cheat..hell no. That was a decision that came from within my heart and my boundaries. Did I want to find fulfillment and love somewhere else..damn skippy. His choice to hurt so many people is all on him.

 

I believe both parties in a marriage are responsible for it's health and well being, but both parties are not responsible for the choices that kill another's trust and emotional health, whether that is drug use, alcoholism, abuse of any kind, financial over indulgence or cheating.

 

You're posts show that you are still so hurt over his betrayal and have not moved on. Are you still with this man?

 

In response to the OP, I agree that everyone involved has a part in the A, whether it was directly on indirectly.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Sometimes the BS is completely innocent. I know the many, many times I cheated in various relationships, it wasn't because of anything missing in the relationship. It was because of something missing inside myself.

 

There were plenty of takers who had no problem with helping to screw over someone they didn't know, as long as they got something out of it.

 

Ethics pale and fade as desire bursts into flames.

[OpenBook]

You're posts show that you are still so hurt over his betrayal and have not moved on. Are you still with this man?

 

No, Bent actually had the balls to kick her H to the curb, even while she was forced to deal with a psycho OW. She soldiered on, protecting her children and making sure they were raised right, regardless of all the pain she had to deal with herself. My hat's off to Bent.

 

All of our painful experiences shape & forge us in some way, and we carry those changes with us throughout our lifetimes. This applies to everyone. "Moving on" in spite of this is what separates the women from the girls.

[bentnotbroken]

No, Bent actually had the balls to kick her H to the curb, even while she was forced to deal with a psycho OW. She soldiered on, protecting her children and making sure they were raised right, regardless of all the pain she had to deal with herself. My hat's off to Bent.

 

All of our painful experiences shape & forge us in some way, and we carry those changes with us throughout our lifetimes. This applies to everyone. "Moving on" in spite of this is what separates the women from the girls.

 

 

Thanks for the kind words. I couldn't do anything without the Lord leading me.

[bentnotbroken]

You're posts show that you are still so hurt over his betrayal and have not moved on. Are you still with this man?

 

In response to the OP, I agree that everyone involved has a part in the A, whether it was directly on indirectly.

 

 

I no where near still hurt. I get mad as hell when I see my kids suffering with the aftermath of his A. Mr. Messy is no way responsible for my actions and the things that I put him through, and I no way responsible for his actions and what he put me through. It makes me crazy when someone says BS are responsible for the actions of another adult. They are only responsible for their actions in the marriage, not the avenue at which someone chooses to address(or ignore) those problems.

 

 

Should Mr. Messy be part of the reason I "didn't" cheat? Or was that my own moral compass and boundaries at work?

[Lizzie60]

I agree.. it's NOT the OW fault..

 

But there is two sides ... the BS and the MP..

 

If the MP would get a lot of sex... would have fun... had a great emotional connection... he/she would NOT be out there..

 

So there is always fault on both sides..

[2sure]

If the MP would get a lot of sex... would have fun... had a great emotional connection... he/she would NOT be out there..

 

I just wanted to point out that when a BS discovers an A - the FIRST thoughts are often: What have I done? What did I do wrong? What I can do to fix this?

 

In fact, it would be so much easier to be able to point to something the BS did or lacked - so that it could be identified and worked on. I would have preferred to blame myself, fix myself, it would have been much easier. So - the H and the OW of course take the bulk of the blame , but believe me - the BS often looks inwards FIRST.

 

In reference to the above quote: Sure, sometimes people cheat for those reasons. A lot of times, those things are not a factor. Most MM/MW are having sex with their spouses and all the intimacy that goes with that.

 

Thats the kicker.

[Lizzie60]

If the MP would get a lot of sex... would have fun... had a great emotional connection... he/she would NOT be out there..

 

I just wanted to point out that when a BS discovers an A - the FIRST thoughts are often: What have I done? What did I do wrong? What I can do to fix this?

 

In fact, it would be so much easier to be able to point to something the BS did or lacked - so that it could be identified and worked on. I would have preferred to blame myself, fix myself, it would have been much easier. So - the H and the OW of course take the bulk of the blame , but believe me - the BS often looks inwards FIRST.

 

In reference to the above quote: Sure, sometimes people cheat for those reasons. A lot of times, those things are not a factor. Most MM/MW are having sex with their spouses and all the intimacy that goes with that.

 

Thats the kicker.

 

I agree that in some cases, they're having sex.. but in most cases, they're not.. (not very often anyway)... or they are missing on oral, or kinkier sex..

 

One of my MM had maybe one or two BJs in all his years of marriage.. and he absolutely looove it.. he loves lingerie.. she never wear any... other than that... everything is perfect for him.. and he's a great dad..

[serial muse]

One of my MM had maybe one or two BJs in all his years of marriage.. and he absolutely looove it.. he loves lingerie.. she never wear any... other than that... everything is perfect for him.. and he's a great dad..

 

Yes, but. He's responsible for making his wants and desires clear. Nobody is a mindreader - if he were at the point where he's so desperate for a BJ and some lingerie that he's willing to cheat, then why not just explain that to his wife?

 

Sorry, but saying that she drove him to it by not attending to his specific needs all sounds like rationalization. Chances are, the BS either doesn't know what exactly those needs are, or doesn't understand the intensity of the need. And it's the WS' responsibility to figure those things out and communicate them to his/her partner, if the stakes are that high.

 

It's as Bent said - the BS should take responsibility for what s/he did to weaken the marriage, and the WS should take responsibility for what s/he did to weaken the marriage. And that can include not communicating.

 

The WS, however, is the one that made a decision to deal with unhappiness by cheating. It's not really that complicated.

 

What 2sure said is correct, by the way...I've seen it on here, too. The BS may be hopping mad, but there's almost always a component of that that turns inward - what did I do? How can I fix it? Almost always.

[Lizzie60]

Yes, but. He's responsible for making his wants and desires clear. Nobody is a mindreader - if he were at the point where he's so desperate for a BJ and some lingerie that he's willing to cheat, then why not just explain that to his wife?

 

Sorry, but saying that she drove him to it by not attending to his specific needs all sounds like rationalization. Chances are, the BS either doesn't know what exactly those needs are, or doesn't understand the intensity of the need. And it's the WS' responsibility to figure those things out and communicate them to his/her partner, if the stakes are that high.

 

It's as Bent said - the BS should take responsibility for what s/he did to weaken the marriage, and the WS should take responsibility for what s/he did to weaken the marriage. And that can include not communicating.

 

The WS, however, is the one that made a decision to deal with unhappiness by cheating. It's not really that complicated.

 

What 2sure said is correct, by the way...I've seen it on here, too. The BS may be hopping mad, but there's almost always a component of that that turns inward - what did I do? How can I fix it? Almost always.

 

I know she's not a mindreader.. no need to be.. they've already discussed this over and over.. he just got tired of nagging..

 

That,s what usually happens.. they just stop nagging for sex.. and while the W thinks he's OK with it.. because she's not being bothered anymore.. he's out there having some..

[whichwayisup]

And the reason I never took her side and said what a horrible person the H was for "doing this to her", was because I saw the flags with my own two eyes (she treated H like a roommate, they barely talked, she was too involved with her son). While I had enough tact to not point out all the reason why the A may have happened, I did tell her that I thought it takes "two to tango".

 

Like she deserved it? So basically you blamed your 'friend' and didn't want to pick sides.

 

What about the way he treated her? I bet he didn't put in any effort either. He probably didn't tell her how neglected HE was feeling so instead of COMMUNICATING this, he chose the easy way for himself, the selfish way and go cheat.

 

Noone held a gun to his head, his wife certainly didn't.

 

Need to ask, why didn't you talk to her when you noticed the roommate dymantic? Maybe mention to her that 'hey, I predict that your H may cheat on you if you don't start putting effort into your marriage?'

[herenow]

If the only reason my H had an affair was for the sex, it would have been so easy to fix that problem.

 

Most of these guys have deeper issues that need to be addressed. The only person that can help a MM is the MM. If he isn't willing to dig deep to find the reason he is having an affair and fix it, he will continue to behave in destructive ways.

 

Most MM who manage to deal with their issues admit that the affair was their fault and not because of the BW or the OW.

 

MM with no issues manage to get a divorce if they have serious problems in their marriage.

[RinClavin]

I believe it ultimately is as simple as both parties being responsible for the problems within a marriage, and both parties being responsible for how they deal with the problems.

 

I thought I'd play the devil's advocate a little and give my story again in response to "the WS has to communicate their needs or the BS can't address them". I entered into an EA with a former coworker. We were friends, became close friends, and crossed the line into a romantically charged relationship. I never lied to my husband. I told him every time we talked and even what we talked about. I told my H that I needed emotional closeness from him. That I felt so distant that I noticed that I was seeking out my friends more than him (not just the OM but other friends were filling the position that I should have kept for him). When it started getting worse I told my H that I felt too close to my friend and that he felt like the "other man" in my life. I explained exactly the kind of emotional intimacy I was receiving from my friend. I asked my husband to talk to me, to share his hopes and dreams and fears and insecurities. I asked my husband if there was something I needed to change so that he wouldn't keep drawing away from me.

 

His response was always something along the line of "He's a good friend, I don't mind that you're close. I don't know what to talk about... I love you just be yourself". The OM and I have stopped talking, we took responsibility for our actions and weaned each other off of the addiction. I'm still trying to engage my husband into conversation and closeness. It's still not working, he's still closed off.

 

I still have feelings for the OM, but am not acting on them. I certainly acknowledge that the choices leading to the EA were mine and that the problems in our marriage, although motivation, are not justification. But I did talk, I am talking. I did make my needs known, ask my H to fill them, and ask my husband what I needed to change to make him happy.

 

So I have a question for the members of this board (not because I don't know my own answer but because I'm interested by the logic of some); if I've told my husband of my needs and he still doesn't fill them... If I've told my husband of my affiar and he doesn't ask me to stop or seem to care... Am I still in an Emotional Affiar?

[NoIDidn't]

The premise that the BS is somehow responsible for a part of the affair is a joke.

 

THe BS is married not cheating.

 

The BS is responsible for their marriage, not for their spouse's affair.

 

The BS had no part in betraying themselves. The MP and the OP did.

 

Especially when the BS had no idea that they are being cheated on.

 

In order to reach a conclusion like this, one has to either be listening exclusively to the lies the MP tells the OP about the BS - OR - just plain crazy.

[TOWinNYC]

Like she deserved it? So basically you blamed your 'friend' and didn't want to pick sides.

 

What about the way he treated her? I bet he didn't put in any effort either. He probably didn't tell her how neglected HE was feeling so instead of COMMUNICATING this, he chose the easy way for himself, the selfish way and go cheat.

 

Noone held a gun to his head, his wife certainly didn't.

 

Need to ask, why didn't you talk to her when you noticed the roommate dymantic? Maybe mention to her that 'hey, I predict that your H may cheat on you if you don't start putting effort into your marriage?'

 

Where is my post did I say my bestfriend DESERVED to be cheated on? This is my BFF for 20+ years - I would never wish that on her!

 

I wasn't a party in the marriage so I have no idea how H treated her - and you may be right. Perhaps he didn't communicate, choose the easy way and cheated. But in this particular dynamic, it was obvious that while she was not to "blame" it wasn't like she didn't have a "hand" in it.

 

Let me make something clear - I don't think anybody "deserves" to be cheated on. But life is complicated and (as proven in forums like LS), things happen. I posted this thread so that people can be aware that you CANNOT place something as precious as your marriage on auto-pilot.

 

All of us "know" when something is off with our SO - whether married or not. And as an adult, you are the one responsible for your actions, thoughts and feelings. If something feels off, different, not as good as before - you need to be brave and confront the problem face on, or deal with potential consequences of not doing so.

[OpenBook]

Most of these guys have deeper issues that need to be addressed. The only person that can help a MM is the MM. If he isn't willing to dig deep to find the reason he is having an affair and fix it, he will continue to behave in destructive ways.

 

With over 50% of all MM having an affair at some point in their marriage, I find it hard to believe that most of them "have deeper issues that need to be addressed." That's an awful lot of men.

[joybean72]

My stbx must've had the same issues with his first wife as he did with me because he lied & cheated on her too! *scratching head*

Oh...and we WERE having sex quite a few times a week right up until I found out about the (2nd) OW. Then he tried to get back with his first wife except she told him where to go (and they have children together!)...he's now playing house with the OW & her kids. Yeah, I'd say there are issues at play...but at least those ones are not mine anymore! (I've been dealing with my own!)

[LovieDove24]

Sometimes the BS is completely innocent. I know the many, many times I cheated in various relationships, it wasn't because of anything missing in the relationship. It was because of something missing inside myself.

 

There were plenty of takers who had no problem with helping to screw over someone they didn't know, as long as they got something out of it.

 

Ethics pale and fade as desire bursts into flames.

 

This is the best response to the OP yet. Its true, a completely fulfilled person does not enter into an affair. I don't understand why, when we're single, a person is expected to be responsible for ones own happiness, yet when in a relationship they expect it to come from the other person. It should always be coming from within you. If your wife isn't giving you BJs and you're so unhappy you're ready to cheat, somethings broken inside you, period.

 

Openbook, it is not that unrealistic to expect that 50% of men go feeling unfulfilled during their life--at the least if not during some part of it. (And I'm not sure how accurate those stats are to begin with.) How many people do you see out there generally happy? And how many people do you see just coasting through life? I think your answer to those questions will clear your surprise to that 50% "stat."

[datura_noir]

This thread is getting very laughable and Jerry Springer-like....both the BS and the OP are almost always going to see their own selves and their roles as that of the most hurt, most betrayed, and the one who ultimately pays the price for love.Whatever......

 

Perhaps the CS should read here and glean from this all of the pain and conflict and confusion that THEY reap upon people who ultimately just want to love them.

 

Loving someone is not wrong; but if it has to be hidden (for any reason) in one way or another, it is usually doomed to fail.

[whichwayisup]

Where is my post did I say my bestfriend DESERVED to be cheated on? This is my BFF for 20+ years - I would never wish that on her!

 

Sorry. Just this reads abit harsh: While I had enough tact to not point out all the reason why the A may have happened, I did tell her that I thought it takes "two to tango".[/B] The two to tango more or less IS telling her she IS partially to blame for HIS affair. The two to tango though IS true when it comes to the problems in their marriage and each of them have a part in that. Maybe it was the way you worded it, but to me it reads that you kind of put blame on her for her H's cheating ways.

 

I wasn't a party in the marriage so I have no idea how H treated her - and you may be right. Perhaps he didn't communicate, choose the easy way and cheated. But in this particular dynamic, it was obvious that while she was not to "blame" it wasn't like she didn't have a "hand" in it.

 

Again, you ARE putting blame on her, or as you say a 'hand' in it. She had a 'hand' in the demise of her own marriage, NOT the cheating part of it. I hope you see this?

 

All of us "know" when something is off with our SO - whether married or not. And as an adult, you are the one responsible for your actions, thoughts and feelings. If something feels off, different, not as good as before - you need to be brave and confront the problem face on, or deal with potential consequences of not doing so.

 

Not if the cheater is good at lying and pretending all is OK at home. Serial cheaters are VERY good at manipulating - Both BS and OW/OM.

[whichwayisup]

I'm not advocating A's nor am I discounting the hurt and pain that BS go through after the discovery. But dang it, A's don't happen in a vacuum, and EVERYONE should admit they had a hand in it. Including the BS.

 

I honestly don't see how a betrayed spouse is responsible for the WS's CHOICE to cheat. A BS responsible for the problems IN the marriage, that's it.

 

Where is my post did I say my bestfriend DESERVED to be cheated on? This is my BFF for 20+ years - I would never wish that on her!

 

I didn't mean deserved, but you are implying that she had a part in his choice to cheat. OR does this statement: EVERYONE should admit they had a hand in it. Including the BS. So here you are saying she had a hand in helping her H cheat on her.

[OWoman]

So I have a question for the members of this board (not because I don't know my own answer but because I'm interested by the logic of some); if I've told my husband of my needs and he still doesn't fill them... If I've told my husband of my affiar and he doesn't ask me to stop or seem to care... Am I still in an Emotional Affiar?

 

No, you're in an exit affair, priming yourself to check out of a doomed marriage.