Author BetrayedMama Posted April 22, 2009 Author Posted April 22, 2009 No! Perversion is a matter of opinion, as long as the participants are 2 consenting adults "perversion" is simply a point of view and it would seem that your idea of perversion is not compatible with your husbands. It could also be possible that he knows this and therefore does not show you this side of himself. Well, I see what you mean. Still, however you define it - it is so horribly wrong. It is just so wrong...
Owl Posted April 22, 2009 Posted April 22, 2009 Well, I see what you mean. Still, however you define it - it is so horribly wrong. It is just so wrong... And if that's how you truly feel...don't try to justify his actions and make it anything LESS than a fully physical affair...because it's NOT. There's no true reason to believe that he's not already hooked up with someone else...or...there's also no true reason to believe that the only reason he's not hooked up with someone already is because he's not truly had the CHANCE to do so. The only OTHER, POSSIBLE (and not one that I recommend) suggestion I could give you would be to INSIST, point-blank, concrete and steel firm that he begin treatment for sexual addiction. Frankly...I doubt you'll get him to agree, or to go, or to do anything to change the situation...which is why I also don't suggest you waste your effort, and go talk with a divorce lawyer about seperation.
Author BetrayedMama Posted April 22, 2009 Author Posted April 22, 2009 And if that's how you truly feel...don't try to justify his actions and make it anything LESS than a fully physical affair...because it's NOT. There's no true reason to believe that he's not already hooked up with someone else...or...there's also no true reason to believe that the only reason he's not hooked up with someone already is because he's not truly had the CHANCE to do so. The only OTHER, POSSIBLE (and not one that I recommend) suggestion I could give you would be to INSIST, point-blank, concrete and steel firm that he begin treatment for sexual addiction. Frankly...I doubt you'll get him to agree, or to go, or to do anything to change the situation...which is why I also don't suggest you waste your effort, and go talk with a divorce lawyer about seperation. Hi Owl. What do you say about a scenario where he is seeking therapy but I - ME - do not want to (cannot) forgive (or forget)? Is the problem then on me? Am I then the unreasonable one? Is it wrong of me to be angry and never forget about all this stuff? Ever? What if that happens? Or is it "expected" of ME to forgive him and just say "oh well, he is seeking therapy, I feel better now". Bullcrap. I really am asking you though. I feel like this wont do anything for me and my future trust. Because I have had this negative attitude since I was a child that people cannot change. I am sorry, but it is how I feel. I base that on the fact that in high school i was overweight and nerdy and made fun of on occasion, band geek, etc. Then right after HS, I lost a large amount of weight and now am a trainer. My point being, I still have an incredibly low self-esteem and feel like the fat girl STILL...because...people, IMO, never change who they really are deep inside...anyway, any thoughts are appreciated about the therapy thing...
manugeorge Posted April 22, 2009 Posted April 22, 2009 Hi Owl. What do you say about a scenario where he is seeking therapy but I - ME - do not want to (cannot) forgive (or forget)? Is the problem then on me? Am I then the unreasonable one? Is it wrong of me to be angry and never forget about all this stuff? Ever? What if that happens? Or is it "expected" of ME to forgive him and just say "oh well, he is seeking therapy, I feel better now". Bullcrap. I really am asking you though. I feel like this wont do anything for me and my future trust. Because I have had this negative attitude since I was a child that people cannot change. I am sorry, but it is how I feel. I base that on the fact that in high school i was overweight and nerdy and made fun of on occasion, band geek, etc. Then right after HS, I lost a large amount of weight and now am a trainer. My point being, I still have an incredibly low self-esteem and feel like the fat girl STILL...because...people, IMO, never change who they really are deep inside...anyway, any thoughts are appreciated about the therapy thing... See, this is why you put up with his crap and you keep having children with him. It sounds like he didn't just wake up one day and become who he is, he's been this way for years and you've stuck with it. You have dragged you low self esteem issues with you through life and having a low self worth is EXACTLY what makes you surrender or even tolerate people's mistreatment of you. Get thee to therapy and fast. Leave him alone for now and turn the mirror inwards. You seriously have to work on yourself before you tackle the issues between you and him.
Owl Posted April 22, 2009 Posted April 22, 2009 Hi Owl. What do you say about a scenario where he is seeking therapy but I - ME - do not want to (cannot) forgive (or forget)? Is the problem then on me? Am I then the unreasonable one? Is it wrong of me to be angry and never forget about all this stuff? Ever? What if that happens? Or is it "expected" of ME to forgive him and just say "oh well, he is seeking therapy, I feel better now". Bullcrap. I really am asking you though. I feel like this wont do anything for me and my future trust. Because I have had this negative attitude since I was a child that people cannot change. I am sorry, but it is how I feel. I base that on the fact that in high school i was overweight and nerdy and made fun of on occasion, band geek, etc. Then right after HS, I lost a large amount of weight and now am a trainer. My point being, I still have an incredibly low self-esteem and feel like the fat girl STILL...because...people, IMO, never change who they really are deep inside...anyway, any thoughts are appreciated about the therapy thing... What if you ARE the one who "can't get over it"? So what? My advice in that circumstance still stands...you won't have a viable relationship with him...you divorce. You chalk up your marriage as a learning experience...and move on. Easy? Of course not. But, what do you suggest in alternative to this? Either you work to fix things, and you solve them. Things solved=great marriage. Or you work to fix things, and they can't be solved. Unresolved things=bad marriage. Bad marriage=divorce...or...bad marriage=YOU ACCEPTING THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR REMAINING IN THE BAD MARRIAGE Simple. Not easy...but not complex.
tml-13 Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 Hi Owl. What do you say about a scenario where he is seeking therapy but I - ME - do not want to (cannot) forgive (or forget)? Is the problem then on me? Am I then the unreasonable one? Is it wrong of me to be angry and never forget about all this stuff? Ever? What if that happens? Or is it "expected" of ME to forgive him and just say "oh well, he is seeking therapy, I feel better now". Bullcrap. I really am asking you though. I feel like this wont do anything for me and my future trust. Because I have had this negative attitude since I was a child that people cannot change. I am sorry, but it is how I feel. I base that on the fact that in high school i was overweight and nerdy and made fun of on occasion, band geek, etc. Then right after HS, I lost a large amount of weight and now am a trainer. My point being, I still have an incredibly low self-esteem and feel like the fat girl STILL...because...people, IMO, never change who they really are deep inside...anyway, any thoughts are appreciated about the therapy thing... Therapy/MC is just as much for you as it is for your marriage... it's just as much about helping you gain your self esteem back. It's about contributions vs. blame.. . you may have contributed to it, but you can not blame yourself for his actions.... Find a good MC even if you are skeptical. You dont need to decide any time soon... you will find out if he's remorseful by going thru the process. I'm going through a similar thing right now... our MC is good... very good... I was skeptical at first, but he gave a compelling argument: Go thru the process and at least find out how you contributed to the problem... otherwise you will make the same mistake and choose the same type of person again and not know how to make it work. My WS had several affairs, both EAs and PAs. I'm still skeptical and not sure if MC will work at all, but I am starting to understand how I enabled her behaviour and that knowledge will help me in the future no matter what I decide to do. Either way, you need to understand that nothing you did made them cheat.... you simply enabled them to do it. Every day is a struggle for me.. it's been almost 1 year since I've known but only 6 mos since WS admitted it. Find out why he did it before you close the door. Chances are, you're going to leave sooner or later... but you need to make sure you dont repeat the same pattern with someone else.... be selfish... you are going to MC for you! Who knows? Maybe MC will work for the both of you.... although it would be way easier if we could tatoo a red "A" for adulterer on thier foreheads and ship them off to siberia
Author BetrayedMama Posted April 23, 2009 Author Posted April 23, 2009 Thank you all so much. I will give this all much thought over the next few days to few weeks.
Athena Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 Thank you all so much. I will give this all much thought over the next few days to few weeks. Yes, do that. Because what you see is what you get. And will continue to get with your H for years and years. You just have to decide whether you can put up with that behavior from him (and undoubtedly it will escalate) as you raise your young children in a two-parent home, or whether you take the plunge and separate. If you decide to stay with him, take precautions to do two things: Make sure you become Emotionally and Financially independent from him. This way, you will not be devastated should he continue (as he will) and if he decides to end the M, or when the time comes for YOU to end the M, it will be easier for you to walk away. Right now you cannot leave immediately without a huge fall out and lots of pain. So you must endure until you set yourself up otherwise. Whether you manage this in weeks, months, or years -- is up to you. Just don't see yourself with this man until you both grow old. His behavior will get worse with time. This is because what he is doing will gradually not fulfill his needs, he will need more and more, to get the same 'high' or kick out of his behavior. You know in your heart you cannot live like this with him forever, don't you? But right now you are still in shock and trying to process his actions and what they mean... all I wish for you is to protect yourself emotionally and financially, so whether you stay or not, you will be okay!
Owl Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 If you decide to stay with him, take precautions to do two things: Make sure you become Emotionally and Financially independent from him. This way, you will not be devastated should he continue (as he will) and if he decides to end the M, or when the time comes for YOU to end the M, it will be easier for you to walk away. Right now you cannot leave immediately without a huge fall out and lots of pain. So you must endure until you set yourself up otherwise. Whether you manage this in weeks, months, or years -- is up to you. Athena, I don't often disagree with you, but I have to here, my friend. It is NEVER acceptable to emotionally (or financially) distance yourself in a marriage. You're either married, or you're not. Emotionally distancing yourself sets the stage for far too many other issues to crop up...and also sets a horrible precedent and example for you children to learn from. What they see you do in your marriage will deeply influence how they conduct their own marriages when that time comes. This is a black or white thing...either decide to remain married, and take every possible action to improve the marriage...or end the marriage. Do NOT remain in the marriage but emotionally and mentally pull out of it. Odds are REAL high that at some point, you'll end up going outside your marriage in a way you shouldn't, if you go this route. Sorry Athena...but I can't agree with the concept of distancing yourself but remaining married.
stuckinoz Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 Is what he is doing considered cheating on me?? He says no. God I am so devastated. I feel unbelievably trapped... Can't give "advice"..... But - My counselor referrs to people that are like this as 'CHARACTERS'....She compares them to Bill Clinton & Rod Blagojevich. They don't see what they are doing as wrong & do everything in their power to force you to see things their way. Twist the story so it suits them. Not what you think is obvious. Sounds like he's "gaslighting" as well. I'm sorry you are in this situation - It is not a pleasant place to be in & to feel stuck....(I've been in a very similar situation) all I can say is I"m sorry you have to endure this.
Athena Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 This is a black or white thing...either decide to remain married, and take every possible action to improve the marriage...or end the marriage. _______________ Sorry Athena...but I can't agree with the concept of distancing yourself but remaining married. Yes Owl, you are right. I know this. The only reason why she might contemplate doing what I suggested, is if she knows she will not forgive him, as she says, and if she knows there is no stopping him, as she has said he's been doing this for years, but isn't ready to walk away yet. It is better for her to divorce, than to stay in a bad marriage. However, since she has a newborn child to take care of, she may decide she wants to remain in the M, as she has suggested. In this case, she should not pretend to herself that she has a Real Marriage, but rather, a marriage of convenience... and in this marriage of convenience she would need to distance herself emotionally, since her H clearly is not emotionally available to her, and she would be in more pain if she did not withdraw. Having just said all that. I do think you are right -- you either stay in a marriage and make it work, or you get out. The unfortunate truth is that in some cases it's difficult to do that immediately -- either the BS is not 'ready' or is still in shock, and doesn't know what to do. Betrayed Mama -- what do you think? What is best for you? Will you consider divorce?
Athena Posted April 23, 2009 Posted April 23, 2009 My counselor referrs to people that are like this as 'CHARACTERS'....She compares them to Bill Clinton & Rod Blagojevich. They don't see what they are doing as wrong & do everything in their power to force you to see things their way. Twist the story so it suits them. . Well, then... seems another name for 'characters' is narcissists...
Author BetrayedMama Posted April 25, 2009 Author Posted April 25, 2009 Yes Owl, you are right. I know this. The only reason why she might contemplate doing what I suggested, is if she knows she will not forgive him, as she says, and if she knows there is no stopping him, as she has said he's been doing this for years, but isn't ready to walk away yet. It is better for her to divorce, than to stay in a bad marriage. However, since she has a newborn child to take care of, she may decide she wants to remain in the M, as she has suggested. In this case, she should not pretend to herself that she has a Real Marriage, but rather, a marriage of convenience... and in this marriage of convenience she would need to distance herself emotionally, since her H clearly is not emotionally available to her, and she would be in more pain if she did not withdraw. Having just said all that. I do think you are right -- you either stay in a marriage and make it work, or you get out. The unfortunate truth is that in some cases it's difficult to do that immediately -- either the BS is not 'ready' or is still in shock, and doesn't know what to do. Betrayed Mama -- what do you think? What is best for you? Will you consider divorce? Without wanting to sound like one of those women we all see on Oprah who get abused but won't leave (because that is NOT me, seriously), I am madly in love with my husband. I still feel like I have a crush on him. I still get excited at the thought of him coming home everyday. I still primp for him! These are the reasons why I am so devastated, and more of course. Let me share with you a short email he wrote from work when I sent him an email telling him that I feel alone, like I can't talk to him, betrayed, hurt, etc etc etc...PS - he is in therapy and has gone twice already since this last incident. He says he can't listen to my feelings right now because, well...he writes... [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]"I know you feel hurt. I want to listen, I REALLY REALLY do. I want to be there for you. I am just not sure you understand what it is like to hurt someone you love, and then watch them suffer and hate you for all things you did do to them.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]I want you to open up and confide in me, but I am not in a place mentally where I can handle it in the right way. I am not putting you aside for my needs, I am trying to preserve some stability in our day to day lives.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]I love you more than any human has loved another. In my right mind, there is no way I would do the things I do that hurt you. I just have to find my "right mind".[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]Maybe in time you can forgive me. We are still MFEO, you are still my bunny, you are still my queen of hearts, and my monumental love. Let me get better so I can be there for you for the rest of our time together..."[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][/FONT] [FONT=Arial] Thanks all in advance for helping me...Betrayed Mama[/FONT]
Athena Posted April 26, 2009 Posted April 26, 2009 He reminds me of my H, and you remind me of me, a year ago... but then he cheated again recently. My case is different, in that H is narcissistic, and I don't know if your H is... I loved my H so much... adored him... I don't anymore... it took him two decades to MAKE me not. I truly hope it turns out differently for you. The only thing you can do is to give him the time he needs, and see if he can indeed be helped! Time will tell. What's the hurry?
tami-chan Posted April 26, 2009 Posted April 26, 2009 It is NEVER acceptable to emotionally (or financially) distance yourself in a marriage. Says who? A couple is free to choose how to conduct themselves in their marriage. You are assigning your values to them.
Owl Posted April 27, 2009 Posted April 27, 2009 Says who? A couple is free to choose how to conduct themselves in their marriage. You are assigning your values to them. Says anyone who takes the "standard" wedding vows...and in this case, I see no indication that the OP signed up for anything out of the usual. These aren't just MY values...they're the values of the majority of western cultures today. I would agree with you in one way tho...if a couple goes into a marriage with DIFFERENT expectations and agreements...this doesn't always apply. But since those situations are far and away the minority, my advice/observation was based on the most likely situation, given no opposing posts from BM. I thought I was on your ignore list?
Author BetrayedMama Posted April 27, 2009 Author Posted April 27, 2009 Says anyone who takes the "standard" wedding vows...and in this case, I see no indication that the OP signed up for anything out of the usual. These aren't just MY values...they're the values of the majority of western cultures today. I would agree with you in one way tho...if a couple goes into a marriage with DIFFERENT expectations and agreements...this doesn't always apply. But since those situations are far and away the minority, my advice/observation was based on the most likely situation, given no opposing posts from BM. I thought I was on your ignore list? Why would someone ignore you? You are very helpful. Anyway, here is my final question. I finally figured out what it was I wanted to ask - summed up... IS IT POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO DO THIS TO ME (SINGLES SITES, AND ETC) AND STILL BE TOTALLY IN LOVE WITH ME? SHOULD I BELIEVE HIM THAT HE DOESN'T KNOW WHY HE DOES IT AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS LOVE FOR ME????????? Does anyone know the answer? Anyone want to take a stab at it?? I really appreciate it...
Owl Posted April 27, 2009 Posted April 27, 2009 I'll give you my true feelings on this subject... I think he loves you. But I don't think he loves you enough to change. He loves the feelings he gets from doing all these behaviors more than he loves you. And he's become an expert at manipulating you into accepting these behaviors for as long as he can. The email he sent to you disgusted me. It wasn't heartfelt, there wasn't any real apology in it at all. There was no true ownership of the problem...instead, he makes it sound like it's "not his fault" because he's "not in his right mind". And he expects you to just sit there and suck it up until he I just have to find my "right mind". That's horsepuckey. He's not making ANY headway based off of this. He's refusing to even acknowledge that he's the problem. This is just transferring the responsibility for his actions off of his shoulder, and onto his "mental issues". Straight up...I don't believe he loves you enough to change what he's doing. Now, or ever. The question I asked before still remains...are you willing to live like this and accept it, or are you going to make a change in your life to remove this "problem" from your life? THEORETICALLY, this might be enough of a stressor to trigger a true change in him to end his actions...but I wouldn't count on that as a likely result. If you decide you can't live with it...then absolutely be ready to live without him. The "ignore" comment wasn't for you, BW. It was for Tami-chan, who has had issue with my viewpoints and advice in the past, which was why she'd placed me on her "ignore" list before.
Athena Posted April 28, 2009 Posted April 28, 2009 Why would someone ignore you? You are very helpful. Anyway, here is my final question. I finally figured out what it was I wanted to ask - summed up... IS IT POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO DO THIS TO ME (SINGLES SITES, AND ETC) AND STILL BE TOTALLY IN LOVE WITH ME? SHOULD I BELIEVE HIM THAT HE DOESN'T KNOW WHY HE DOES IT AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS LOVE FOR ME????????? Does anyone know the answer? Anyone want to take a stab at it?? I really appreciate it... He loves you as much as he is able to. Don't count on it that love to him is the same as love is to you. If he is narcissistic, his own selfish needs come first over the needs of you in the relationship. Sure, he wants you around, sure he loves you, but don't ever think he is going to stop what he is doing just because you want him to! Are you willing to put up with this, just as long as you believe he loves you? Perhaps your idea of love is affecting your ability to read the reality of how he behaves to you (the one he loves).... he puts himself and his desires first, every time.
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