Responsibility, Blame, and Outcomes

[White Flower]

I don't REALLY think those vows meant, "You'll be happy when I choose to be good to you, but there will be times I choose to treat you like sh-t - so just suck it up!"

 

I think those vows meant when TIMES are good or bad. Things that happen from outside influences. Not things your spouse does TO you.

I think that is exactly what it meant. Outside influences as well as those from within.

[Dexter Morgan]

There seems to be some bizzare concept that because the cheating guy is , perhaps, more culpable, the OW is blameless.

 

Its called mitigation of despicable behavior.

[White Flower]

I disagree. I don't think when that was written people had in mind that one spouse was free to treat the other like crap because of some disclaimer in the vows.

I agree. I don't think it meant anyone was free to treat anyone like crap and I don't believe the vows were disclaimers so to speak. But I do believe 'for better and for worse' includes all of it because whoever wrote it had been around for a while and anticipated the various trials marriage entails.

[Chocolat]

Just because a single person says yes to a married person's advances that does not make them predatory.

 

Maybe not. But there are plenty of single people pursuing married people. I am neither a BS nor OW but I am married and have often been approached by single men who are not deterred when they learn I am married. There have been several who've made it clear they would be happy to be my OM. Single predators exist.

 

I would guess that there are just as many predatory OP as not. The perception that there are not comes from the fact that it is mostly women posting about being OW. It may be that more men make the first physical move (this is our cultural norm) or it may be that OW prefer to see themselves as having been seduced rather than as active participants in the starting of the affair.

 

I think it is safe to say that affairs happen because both the MP and OP want them to.

[White Flower]

You know the person who wrote the vows?!

I anticipate you'll say God but I'm pretty sure it was man;)

[White Flower]

Not at all. But you personally know THE man who wrote the vows to be able to say what he was thinking when wrote them?

Of course not, how preposterous. But being broad-minded and having good critical thinking skills tells me that whoever wrote it meant to cover a plethera of goods and bads (betters and worses) in this world and within marriage including how a spouse might turn something good into bad.

 

It doesn't mean one has to stay under the circumstance of adultery. Most religions carry an escape clause for this, holding no blame to the BS who wants to divorce. Having said that, it turns out that most religions (written by men) are practiced in countries where a woman can be ostracized almost always more often than men for divorcing even when he was the adulterer.

[Mz. Pixie]

Many men compartmentalize their affairs. Steve Harvey has a great new book where he talks about this very same issue. He explains how it's possible for the MM to love his wife and his family and have a great physical connection to his wife yet still cheat.

[angie2443]

Many men compartmentalize their affairs. Steve Harvey has a great new book where he talks about this very same issue. He explains how it's possible for the MM to love his wife and his family and have a great physical connection to his wife yet still cheat.

 

I've heard of the book but haven't read it. I don't buy into this idea that you can love someone whom you compartmentalize. I think to compartmentalize someone, you have to place them beneath you and objectify them to some extent. This, IMO, isn't something you do to someone you love.

[Mz. Pixie]

I see your point however I do believe some men are able to do this........

[carhill]

He explains how it's possible for the MM to love his wife and his family and have a great physical connection to his wife yet still cheat.

 

Can't speak for women who have affairs on their husbands, but I can see, from a man's perspective, why the author would write such assertions. It comes down to essential male traits, mainly goal orientation and pragmatism. One aspect discussed on LS when women watch for a man's actions while dating is, if he wants something, he goes after it (I generally add "with zest"). You'll read a lot of methodology in men's postings, even if they discount it. A plan, a method, what "works". That's pragmatism. Pragmatism is an amoral (as opposed to immoral) application of facts and methodologies to achieve a goal.

 

A man wants a family. He does X+Y to equal Z. He wants a certain career. He wants a certain social status. Rinse and repeat. He identifies what is necessary to achieve the goal and takes those steps. Each goal is separate and unique, as is the particular pragmatic approach to achieving it. The man organizes this in his psyche. It is predominantly logical.

 

The same applies to interpersonal relationships. As women say here all the time, a man sees what he wants and goes for it; pursues it (her in this case). Anything less means he's not interested. So, the man who pursues the woman in an affair situation uses a unique methodology and approach to achieve his goal, not to have an affair but to have the woman (the affair and its meaning is irrelevant and likely not even on his mind). He wants her in his life, just as he wants his family and his job and his social status.

 

IME, the energy from another person with whom one has chemistry is an inspiring thing. If such a man as described above achieves this goal and experiences this chemistry and energy, it imbues him with an additional sense of well-being, and he may indeed be perceived to be "happier" and "more energized", characteristics which might be perceived as positive by others in his life. Yes, the impetus and dynamic for that energy may potentially be damaging and hurtful, but he doesn't see it that way. He feels better about himself; happier.

 

Where the OP (OW in this case) fits in is that, if they're disclosed, they are a party to the man's compartmentalization and are fully aware of the dynamic. If they, not having to compartmentalize their "love", can accept the dynamic that is offered, they too can benefit from this exchange of energy and chemistry.

 

Not all men can compartmentalize. I cannot. I have tried. I understand the concept from a psychological standpoint only. I do understand pragmastism, though

 

So, in the instances where I did improper and hurtful things, I was fully aware and didn't care. I made a conscious choice after reviewing the potentials and responsibilities. Pure pragmatism.

 

Yes, you don't, IMO, do that to someone you love. Obviously, other's opinions and actions differ markedly.

[Spark1111]

I agree that men are more goal oriented and can compartmentalize more readily then women. Male cheaters, especially can do this, claiming "just a friend" and all the other excuses used immediately after DDay.

 

However, women are more emotionally oriented in their relationships and affairs. Our physical chemistry, for the most part, is inspired by our feelings, not our biology. Hence, all the pain we read about at Loveshack.

 

IMO, men for the most part, struggle with the visual imagery of their WS's physical affair. Women, I think, are devastated by the emotional closeness a WH develops with someone else. Am I wrong here posters?

[carhill]

I would agree, generally that this is the "norm". That said, exceptions do exist. As one of them, I'll have to do a journal on the specifics, having seen the concepts from a number of vantage points.

 

As an example, I don't visualize women's body parts being entangled with other males body parts. I don't see women that way, as a collection of body parts I must possess. Perhaps this is why I didn't have any issues and got along fine with my wife's exH and past boyfriends. I don't have the capacity to visualize her with them in that way. Conversely, a major topic of MC was the emotional energy and priority she was giving her girlfriends while denying it to me at home. Sounds odd, right? It is. A great example of how we're all different. Another guy, perhaps a guy who could see his wife effing her ex'es in his mind, wouldn't have cared about all that emotional stuff because he'd be getting his noodle wet (never a problem with her, sexually) and emotional intimacy wouldn't matter or be a priority.

 

In fact, I see this right now with my female friend. Her BF is quite content for us to interact and be affectionate (as friends) right in front of him and has no problem with her venting her emotional stuff to me at all, since he's getting his noodle wet when he wants and doesn't then have to deal with the emotional stuff. An emminantly practical, pragmatic and typical man. Always keeping his options open

 

And, topically, having been her OM once, I learned my lesson. Relationship support is my mantra now. I remind her of it often. "He's your man. You love him. You're emotionally involved with him and committed to him. I support that and want you to be happy". Then, when I question his actions and she jumps to his defense, I smile. Success

[taylor]

I hate these blanket generalizations based on gender. It's not black and white. Each case is different and far too complicated to make sweeping generalizations.

 

I am a married woman and I had an emotional affair with a coworker. I do believe I compartmentalized my affair. I think all WS have to compartmentalize the affair to some degree because there is no psychological way to peacefully mesh a marriage and an affair. They are contradictory activities. To make an affair possible and acceptable, psychologically speaking, in the WS's mind, the two have to be considered as separate identities..separate worlds.

 

When my marriage reached rock bottom I virtually had checked out of it emotionally, although I continued to live in the marriage physically. I felt like I was in solitary confinement, though...lonely and empty. I refered to living in my marriage as living in a dungeon.

 

When the OM entered the picture, we connected emotionally very quickly. I checked in emotionally with the OM, although we did not have a physical relationship (only desire). But the emotional connection was so satisfying..so quenching...that it felt like being at Disneyland.

 

The thing is I had no trouble separating the dungeon from Disneyland. I would spend all day at Disney with my "friend" and then come home to the dungeon to be with my husband..only to get up the next day and do it all over. The energy from the affair "held me over" until the next day.

 

So, I think it is possible for both men and women to compartmentalize..in fact I think it is a must for WS to be able to do if they are going to participate in an affair.

 

And I am not so sure about which kind of affair is worse for each gender.

 

All affairs are bad. All are betrayals that hurt the BS.

 

If my husband had an affair, I would "understand" an EA more than a ONS or a PA for three reasons:

 

1. Because I had an EA myself. I know the insidiousness of it. The "gray" area.

 

2. Because I stuggled, but successfully managed to refrain from having a sexual encounter with the OM, even though I didn't want to. If I could hold off for 7 months from having sex with a man I was sexually attracted to and emotionally involved with, surely my husband could control himself from having sex with a stranger he just met a couple hours ago.

 

3. One of the reasons I was able to refrain from having sex with the OM was because I thought if I had sex with him, I would become "damaged goods" to my husband..I would have an "impure" body. So, likewise, if he chose to have sex with another woman, even one he became emotionally involved with, he, too, would have "soiled" his body and I would only be able to see him as "damaged goods." It would gross me out to have sex with him.

 

 

So, I guess it all depends on a PERSON's perspective..their life experiences and their value system. Everybody's different.

[Reggie]

Can't speak for women who have affairs on their husbands, but I can see, from a man's perspective, why the author would write such assertions. It comes down to essential male traits, mainly goal orientation and pragmatism. One aspect discussed on LS when women watch for a man's actions while dating is, if he wants something, he goes after it (I generally add "with zest"). You'll read a lot of methodology in men's postings, even if they discount it. A plan, a method, what "works". That's pragmatism. Pragmatism is an amoral (as opposed to immoral) application of facts and methodologies to achieve a goal.

 

A man wants a family. He does X+Y to equal Z. He wants a certain career. He wants a certain social status. Rinse and repeat. He identifies what is necessary to achieve the goal and takes those steps. Each goal is separate and unique, as is the particular pragmatic approach to achieving it. The man organizes this in his psyche. It is predominantly logical.

 

The same applies to interpersonal relationships. As women say here all the time, a man sees what he wants and goes for it; pursues it (her in this case). Anything less means he's not interested. So, the man who pursues the woman in an affair situation uses a unique methodology and approach to achieve his goal, not to have an affair but to have the woman (the affair and its meaning is irrelevant and likely not even on his mind). He wants her in his life, just as he wants his family and his job and his social status.

 

IME, the energy from another person with whom one has chemistry is an inspiring thing. If such a man as described above achieves this goal and experiences this chemistry and energy, it imbues him with an additional sense of well-being, and he may indeed be perceived to be "happier" and "more energized", characteristics which might be perceived as positive by others in his life. Yes, the impetus and dynamic for that energy may potentially be damaging and hurtful, but he doesn't see it that way. He feels better about himself; happier.

 

Where the OP (OW in this case) fits in is that, if they're disclosed, they are a party to the man's compartmentalization and are fully aware of the dynamic. If they, not having to compartmentalize their "love", can accept the dynamic that is offered, they too can benefit from this exchange of energy and chemistry.

 

Not all men can compartmentalize. I cannot. I have tried. I understand the concept from a psychological standpoint only. I do understand pragmastism, though

 

So, in the instances where I did improper and hurtful things, I was fully aware and didn't care. I made a conscious choice after reviewing the potentials and responsibilities. Pure pragmatism.

 

Yes, you don't, IMO, do that to someone you love. Obviously, other's opinions and actions differ markedly.

 

This sounds a lot like sociopathic behavior, going after what one wants without regard to how it affects others and with no guilt. It may be pragmatic, but is is also very twisted and sick.

I don't think I know many guys that could compartmentalize like this(at least i hope I do not),

[Reggie]

I agree, any WS, regardless of gender, has to be doing a lot of compartmentalizing. I 've known many women that are quite good at this. I also question whether women value the emotional connection more than men. It is very much a case by case thing and the generalizations about this seem innaccurate to me.

[Spark1111]

In a way, you both agree with me. All cheaters compartmentalize, just men are better at it than women.

 

Also Taylor, as a woman, you controlled yourself from having sex with the OP for whatever reason. Maybe it assuaged your guilt and allowed you to continue the EA. On some level, to you, it wasn't as bad as a physical affair. I get that. That is what many women do. And your attraction was first and foremost, emotional before the sexual desire kicked in but you held it at bay.

 

Men, when they fall for a woman, may keep their sexual desires at bay out of respect for her feelings, but, IMO, they always, always want to perform the physical act with a woman they care/love/have strong feelings for.

 

When men engage in EA, I think either time, distance, circumstances, or the OPs reluctance are the only reasons they do not. But they always want to.

 

Yes, there are unique perspectives to every relationship and unique behaviors. But I do believe certain behaviors are gender specific no matter how much you want to romanticize it.

[taylor]

I agree, any WS, regardless of gender, has to be doing a lot of compartmentalizing. I 've known many women that are quite good at this. I also question whether women value the emotional connection more than men. It is very much a case by case thing and the generalizations about this seem innaccurate to me.

 

Judging from most of the males here who have participated in affairs or been victimized by them, I would say men need that emotional connection as much as women do.

 

Men just don't like to admit it because our society still sees emotions as a "female" thing...a sign of "weakness." Hogwash, I say...pure pig slobber.

 

You know, when my affair was coming to an end, my OM told me how much I "impacted" his life...how "spending time with me was one of the happiest things in his life" ...how I "got" him....how I "put a smile on his face" and how he "missed me." AND WE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE SEX...NOT ONCE.

[taylor]

In a way, you both agree with me. All cheaters compartmentalize, just men are better at it than women.

 

Also Taylor, as a woman, you controlled yourself from having sex with the OP for whatever reason. Maybe it assuaged your guilt and allowed you to continue the EA. On some level, to you, it wasn't as bad as a physical affair. I get that. That is what many women do. And your attraction was first and foremost, emotional before the sexual desire kicked in but you held it at bay.

 

This is true, Spark1111. I guess I never considered it before. But I think you are right. As long as I didn't have sex with him, I didn't feel as if I was doing anything diabolical...hence, no guilt. My therapist asked me several times why I didn't have sex with him as there were many opportunities to. She asked what kept me strong. I wanted to tell her it was love and respect for my husband. But it wasn't. It was knowing that if I took my clothes off and stood before the OM, guilt would have hit me like a ton of bricks. He wouldn't have had to have laid even one finger on me.

 

But don't underestimate the EA. Both partners in an EA want the sex..bad. There are very strong sexual urges, sexual longings, sexual frustration. An EA is a PA that didn't get to happen, for whatever reason.

 

 

Men, when they fall for a woman, may keep their sexual desires at bay out of respect for her feelings, but, IMO, they always, always want to perform the physical act with a woman they care/love/have strong feelings for.

 

When men engage in EA, I think either time, distance, circumstances, or the OPs reluctance are the only reasons they do not. But they always want to.

 

In my case, the OM made it very clear about 10 months into the relationship that he wanted a sexual relationship. But I did, too. He chose to follow my lead, perhaps because I was the married one. Perhaps out of respect. Perhaps because he didn't want to push too hard, before I was ready.

 

And you are right, if a man's EA doesn't turn into a PA, it's not because he doesn't want it to. But I will admit the reason my EA didn't turn into a PA wasn't because of lack of desire on my part, either. I wanted the PA as much as he did.

[tami-chan]

Compartmentalization. Denial. Lack of empathy. Selfishness. Some OWs are never able to actually face themselves for what they've done: see the "I never thought' date=' *I* would be in an affair" threads. So they excuse themselves from what they participated in and blame only the married couple.[/quote']

 

Most girls dream about being a beautiful bride, or be a wonderful mother and the like, I think there are very few who really "think and plan" to be an OW. Yes, there will be a period of denial in what OWs are involved in, precisely because an "affair with an MM" is not something most girls/young women don't look forward to growing up, I think that's the premise of the "I never thought, *I* would be in an affair" declaration.

[tami-chan]

correction: it should read ".....an affair with a married man is not something most girls/young women look forward to growing up....."

[angie2443]

This sounds a lot like sociopathic behavior, going after what one wants without regard to how it affects others and with no guilt. It may be pragmatic, but is is also very twisted and sick.

),

 

You have a point here.

[taylor]

This sounds a lot like sociopathic behavior, going after what one wants without regard to how it affects others and with no guilt. It may be pragmatic, but is is also very twisted and sick.

 

You know, Reggie, people "go after" ALOT of things, in fact, chase after ALOT of things "with zest", without regard to how it affects others and with no guilt.

 

The most blatant thing I can think of that people "chase after" with reckless abandon is MONEY. People will step all over other people chasing that almighty dollar.

 

People also chase after fame..or career status...and they don't care about what it takes to get there..what they have to do..or who they have to step on to get there.

 

They will lower their standards and values and ignore others things, like the people in their lives, while in blind, hot pursuit of that which they feel they "need" but which is seemingly just out of reach.

 

It makes me think of the crowd that trampled a person to death the day after Thanksgiving trying to be the first through the door to take advantage of special deals and discounts at Walmart last year.

 

People can get quite abusive when shopping for limited time offers down aisle 4. They don't care if they have to swear, elbow someone, or run them over with their cart, as long as they get that Chia pet half-price.

 

Lots and lots of sociopaths out there.

[NoIDidn't]

You know, Reggie, people "go after" ALOT of things, in fact, chase after ALOT of things "with zest", without regard to how it affects others and with no guilt.

 

The most blatant thing I can think of that people "chase after" with reckless abandon is MONEY. People will step all over other people chasing that almighty dollar.

 

People also chase after fame..or career status...and they don't care about what it takes to get there..what they have to do..or who they have to step on to get there.

 

They will lower their standards and values and ignore others things, like the people in their lives, while in blind, hot pursuit of that which they feel they "need" but which is seemingly just out of reach.

 

It makes me think of the crowd that trampled a person to death the day after Thanksgiving trying to be the first through the door to take advantage of special deals and discounts at Walmart last year.

 

People can get quite abusive when shopping for limited time offers down aisle 4. They don't care if they have to swear, elbow someone, or run them over with their cart, as long as they get that Chia pet half-price.

 

Lots and lots of sociopaths out there.

 

Yeah, and we (society) have bad names for that type of behavior too. I hope you don't think that makes violating ones vows a lesser event because of the classic "all people do bad things" logic.

 

Just because other people do it, doesn't mean that we have to make the same poor decisions or display the same bad behaviors.

 

Having an affair is much like trampling over your spouse's feelings, too, you know.

[carhill]

I think you'll find a lot of sociopathy, perhaps of the benevolent sort, in dominant males. As long as males perpetuate the behaviors and women find the results of them attractive and produce offspring within that psychological dynamic, the patterns will continue. It's the strongest combination of nature and nurture I can fathom wrt psycho-social development.

 

In order to evolve, men must be willing to make changes and women must be willing to find those changes valuable and attractive, which means they must change a fundamental viewpoint about the value of the male. So far, in my life, I haven't seen enough positive signs to be hopeful. I think the stats bear that out wrt relationship and family failures.

 

Hopefully it will get better.

[Reggie]

Yep, it is pretty prevalent, and not confined to the male of the species. If you see these folks coming, run. Problem is that they are so adept at masking, often you are involved before the monster rears its ugly head. Very adaptive, as carhill points out. Like an attractive virus seeking a host.