On "Intent"

[Mr. Lucky]

As long as the OM and I did not get physical, I did not think I was doing anything to hurt my husband.

I was so caught up with the OM I wasn't paying any attention as to what it was doing to my marriage.

You've contradicted yourself in just the first part of your post. After the fact, you are narrowly defining intent as "initial purpose". I will agree that like most MP that engage in EA or PA's, you did not initially intend to have an A. But there are many decision points in an A where a WS has to decide "Should I or Shouldn't I ?" and each of those points involve an internal risk/reward calculation that includes potential damage to the BS. And "intent" comes in to play at each step as things escalate from friendship to inappropriate feelings...

 

Mr. Lucky

[taylor]

This sounds more like you were rubbing your H's face in your affair.

 

Nope. Not at all. I didn't even realize how attached I had gotten to this man.

 

I shared "OM stuff" with my husband no differently than I shared stuff with him regarding other friends that I had.

 

Like I said, I had myself convinced we were "just friends." Why wouldn't I share "friend" stuff with my husband?

 

Diabolical? No. I didn't even realize how emotionally involved I was until the affair ended. It took me a long time after D-day to figure out exactly when I crossed line emotionally. It was not that clear cut.

[Owl]

Again...if you take an action with the AWARENESS that your actions can/will harm others...it's not an accident.

 

From my perspective...that's intent.

 

I guess I'll just have to disagree with those that don't share that viewpoint.

[jwi71]

One night stands are not mistakes or accidents either. Why suggest they are any different than a physical affair? They still involve a number of deliberate decisions and ACTION.

 

I had an emotional affair, meaning I let my feelings for another man grow strong and deep. Did I make a decision every day to continue engaging in conversation with this man? Yes. Did I make a decision every day to think about this man? Yes. Did I fight off desire to get physical with this man every day? Yes.

 

A number of posters on this forum have engaged in PA's. They made a number of deliberate decisions to engage an affair partner and a number of deliberate decisions that led up to physical sexual contact.

 

So how is the ONS any less of an affair?

 

A person who engages in a one night stand makes a series of deliberate decisions and acts on them. His decision to have sex with another is not a mistake or an accident. He chooses to and he takes deliberate steps in order to. No mistake or accident here.

 

He decides to approach. He decides to flirt..to proposition. He plans where the ONS is to take place (apartment, hotel, car, park) and he deliberately chooses to go there with his affair partner, either at that point of time, or they set a "date and time" for the future.

 

Once together, he decides to follow through with his proposition. He decides to kiss and touch. He decides to remove each article of his clothing. He decides to remove his partner's clothing, or decides to watch her remove her clothing. He decides to have sex in the manner in which he would like to have it.

 

Decisions, decisions, decisions. Many of them. All culminating in one sex act. At any point in time he is given the choice to stop the ONS. Over and over again, with each step he takes, he is choosing not to.

 

A physical affair is no different than a ONS...it's just the same decisions over and over again.

 

No mistake. No accident. No "it just happened." It happened because he decided to make it happen.

 

 

 

 

The INTENT of an affair is to satisfy a need or desire. The CONSEQUENCE of an affair is a hurt, betrayed spouse.

 

And ONS's are just as purposeful and planned and are just as much of a betrayal.

 

When a man says, "Let's go out to my car..or back to my place" he has MADE A PLAN to have sex..to betray.

 

When a man starts to remove his and his partner's clothing, he is doing it WITH PURPOSE...to have sex...to betray.

 

I think in many ways a ONS is worse than an EA, at least in terms of behavior. The decisions seem so much more deliberate and purposeful and there is FAR MORE ACTION.

 

This is an allusion back to earlier in the thread which was referencing a drunken ONS. The significant and necessary condition being intoxicated.

 

In your scenario...of course its a deliberate A and it ends the M or R.

 

Does being intoxicated have a minimizing affect? To me, it does.

 

Would I end an otherwise perfectly good M or R because of a drunken ONS...one where the absence of intoxication eliminates the A...I would be MORE inclined to fight...and of course there are many other factors.

 

My point...intoxication matters when it comes to ONS. Well, to me it does especially, as I said, w/o it the A does NOT happen.

[taylor]

You've contradicted yourself in just the first part of your post. After the fact, you are narrowly defining intent as "initial purpose". I will agree that like most MP that engage in EA or PA's, you did not initially intend to have an A. But there are many decision points in an A where a WS has to decide "Should I or Shouldn't I ?" and each of those points involve an internal risk/reward calculation that includes potential damage to the BS. And "intent" comes in to play at each step as things escalate from friendship to inappropriate feelings...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Again, I was so caught up in my emotions with the OM that I never stopped to even consider my husband or the damage my feelings for the OM might be doing to the marriage. I never took the time to do a "risk/reward calculation."

 

It's like going to Disney. You are having such a great time, taking in all the sights and sounds, the rides and the cotton candy. You get caught up in the excitement. You block everything else out.

 

You arent thinking about the fact that a thunderstorm and torrential downpour are expected to hit the park in a couple hours. You aren't thinking about the fact that your ride is waiting for you in the parking lot and the gates close at 11 p.m. You aren't thinking about the fact you have to catch a flight at 4 a.m. Heck, you don't even care that your feet are aching.

 

When all is said and done, the voice of reason (the BS) says, "You knew there was a thunderstorm coming. Why didn't you leave? You knew I was waiting to pick you up in the parking lot. Why didn't you leave? You knew you had to get up early to catch that flight. Why didn't you leave? Your feet were hurting and you still didn't want to leave? What's the matter with you?"

 

The truth be told waywards are not guilty of any intent to hurt their BS. They are guilty of NOT EVEN THINKING ABOUT HOW THEIR ACTIONS WILL AFFECT THE BS. They don't give the BS or the BS's feelings a single thought...not while in the throes of the affair.

[Reggie]

Nope. Not at all. I didn't even realize how attached I had gotten to this man.

 

I shared "OM stuff" with my husband no differently than I shared stuff with him regarding other friends that I had.

 

Like I said, I had myself convinced we were "just friends." Why wouldn't I share "friend" stuff with my husband?

 

Diabolical? No. I didn't even realize how emotionally involved I was until the affair ended. It took me a long time after D-day to figure out exactly when I crossed line emotionally. It was not that clear cut.

 

How is it you were unable to perceive your emotional involvement, Taylor. Surely you were aware that you had feelings that were more than mere friendship. I cannot understand how one has these feelings but it does not register. By definition, having feelings means they are registering.

[Snowflower]

This is an allusion back to earlier in the thread which was referencing a drunken ONS. The significant and necessary condition being intoxicated.

 

In your scenario...of course its a deliberate A and it ends the M or R.

 

Does being intoxicated have a minimizing affect? To me, it does.

 

Would I end an otherwise perfectly good M or R because of a drunken ONS...one where the absence of intoxication eliminates the A...I would be MORE inclined to fight...and of course there are many other factors.

 

My point...intoxication matters when it comes to ONS. Well, to me it does especially, as I said, w/o it the A does NOT happen.

 

 

Thank you jwi71 for bringing up that point. I think you are referring to my post about my H's drunken ONS.

 

As I said before alcohol really is no "excuse" for what my H did but is an "explanation." Even my H still feels being drunk was no excuse --when we had the difficult conversation about what actually happened-this was about a month after d-day (he confessed to me), he took full responsibility for his actions.

 

But I have come to the conclusion that at least in my H's case, it was not "planned" even as much as some ONS are (like taylor described). Yes, he allowed himself to get into an unsafe situation (alone with the OW) but it was not planned ahead of time. And again, alcohol does impair judgment.

 

Another poster here asked me if I would still "allow" my H to go out to bars, to party, etc. in the future. And to answer that question, I have set that up as one of my parameters for reconciliation. But more importantly, my H does not wish to be around that type of crowd any more. My H was never a big drinker but that experience taught him a lot. He has voluntarily given up that privilege of going out to bars, drink with friends when I'm not around--too earn/keep my trust. This spoke volumes to me about his commitment and his intentions (that word again) to be faithful to me.

[Reggie]

If that is true, Taylor, that the Ws does not even consider the effect of cheating on the spouse, wouldn't you agree that, in a way, that is even more egregious an offense.

For example,in an intentional revenge affair, at least there is some explanation, some anger or desire to payback.

But, if a WS does not even give the Bs a second thought, it is really appalling.

But, the one thing I do not agree with in your analogy re Disneyworld, is that , for example, where a person stays late and fails to meet up at the appointed time, there is no attempt to lie about it. So, why, if the BS is not considered and there is no knowledge that the affair will cause pain because of this failure to consider, does the Ws typically lie about the affair? I realize, in your case , you say you told your H about your involvement but you did not disclose the extent of your feelings because you were unaware of them. But, that does not sound possible. How could one have feelings and not be aware of them?

[Snowflower]

 

I think in many ways a ONS is worse than an EA, at least in terms of behavior. The decisions seem so much more deliberate and purposeful and there is FAR MORE ACTION.

 

I still maintain that an EA is much worse because the time and emotions involved. No, the physical boundary has not been crossed (intercourse) but a WS involved in an EA has given so much of themselves emotionally over a period of time that the marriage relationship will most likely suffer.

 

Unless a WS has decided beforehand, "hey, I am going to go out tonight and find someone to sleep with," a ONS can be more of a stupid decision. Yes, there is still betrayal--but the deception, the lies, the investment (emotions, time) that goes hand in hand with an EA does not occur.

 

Again, it comes down to the actual situation and the people involved as to which is worse. But, it would have been a deal-breaker in my marriage if my H had fallen in love with the OW--I couldn't have handled his withdrawal. I would have always felt like the consolation prize. OTOH, I know that others would be okay with their WS being involved emotionally with someone else-as long as no physical boundaries were crossed.

[Snowflower]

 

And instead of trying to define the word INTENT, just talk to your wayward spouse and decide for yourself where his head and heart were at the time. Whether he or she chose to act maliciously against you or not is yours to figure out within the confines of your own relationship. The truth will fall in different places for each couple.

 

I think this is the best answer I have heard as far as determining "intent."

[taylor]

I still maintain that an EA is much worse because the time and emotions involved. No, the physical boundary has not been crossed (intercourse) but a WS involved in an EA has given so much of themselves emotionally over a period of time that the marriage relationship will most likely suffer.

 

I agree completely with you here, Snowflower. In overall terms, I think the EA is by far the most difficult affair to overcome, mainly because it involves the heart AND is has a sexual component as well (sexual desire). Like I said on another thread, I think it is far easier to withdraw a penis from an affair than it is to withdraw a heart.

 

The reason I suggest a ONS (or PA) is worse than an EA is only in terms of THE BEHAVIOR...the DELIBERATION of the ACT. No one says, "OK, now I am going to fall in love with this person" and then sets out to do it. But this is what happens in many ONS's and with PA"s. The behavior is very deliberate and the goal is very clear. A person intent on having a ONS will say, "I'm gonna get some tonite, with her, if I'm lucky." They deliberately seduce with one goal in mind. And then they act on it physically, which to me is a huge leap. It's one thing to have lustful feelings. It's another thing to act on them. So, to me, the BEHAVIOR of the wayward involved in a ONS or PA is worse than that of a wayward involved in an EA. At least with an EA, there is some control...some INTENT NOT to cross that line.

[taylor]

This is an allusion back to earlier in the thread which was referencing a drunken ONS. The significant and necessary condition being intoxicated.

 

In your scenario...of course its a deliberate A and it ends the M or R.

 

Does being intoxicated have a minimizing affect? To me, it does.

 

My point...intoxication matters when it comes to ONS. Well, to me it does especially, as I said, w/o it the A does NOT happen.

 

I disagree completely.

 

If you aren't too drunk to unbutton your shirt, unzip your pants, and undo a bra, or figure out where you're supposed to stick it in the dark, then you aren't too drunk to say "NO."

 

Alcohol is a strong drug, but it isn't that strong that it makes you forget you have a wife..or that you got married...or knowing that what you are doing or about to do is wrong.

 

Alcohol is just an excuse. It's no different than someone saying, "I had sex with him because I'm so in love I couldn't help myself." Love is an intoxication, too. It makes you WANT to do things you wouldn't otherwise do. But in the end, it's still an excuse. And you can still control it, if you really want to.

[taylor]

This is an allusion back to earlier in the thread which was referencing a drunken ONS. The significant and necessary condition being intoxicated.

 

In your scenario...of course its a deliberate A and it ends the M or R.

 

Does being intoxicated have a minimizing affect? To me, it does.

 

Would I end an otherwise perfectly good M or R because of a drunken ONS...one where the absence of intoxication eliminates the A...I would be MORE inclined to fight...and of course there are many other factors.

 

My point...intoxication matters when it comes to ONS. Well, to me it does especially, as I said, w/o it the A does NOT happen.

 

I guess I should have just grabbed a couple bottles of vodka, got drunk, and had a one night stand with the OM rather than spent 7 months fighting the feelings I had to have sex with him.

 

It would have been more forgivable?

[Reggie]

I disagree completely.

 

If you aren't too drunk to unbutton your shirt, unzip your pants, and undo a bra, or figure out where you're supposed to stick it in the dark, then you aren't too drunk to say "NO."

 

Alcohol is a strong drug, but it isn't that strong that it makes you forget you have a wife..or that you got married...or knowing that what you are doing or about to do is wrong.

 

Alcohol is just an excuse. It's no different than someone saying, "I had sex with him because I'm so in love I couldn't help myself." Love is an intoxication, too. It makes you WANT to do things you wouldn't otherwise do. But in the end, it's still an excuse. And you can still control it, if you really want to.

 

I gotta agree with Taylor. I have had lots of interaction with alcoholics(my dad and one wife). The alcohol does not make them do things they were not already inclined to do, IMO. If your H was not so drunk he could not get it up, he knew what he was doing.

[jwi71]

If you aren't too drunk to unbutton your shirt, unzip your pants, and undo a bra, or figure out where you're supposed to stick it in the dark, then you aren't too drunk to say "NO."

 

I laughed to myself at reading this. I think virtually ALL men can relate to putting on the beer goggles and waking up naked next to some female (also naked) and wonder "How the hell did this happen?"

 

Followed by..."What's her name?"

 

Followed by..."I hope she isn't too ugly"

 

In fact, I bet a good many women can relate to that as well!!!

 

Alcohol is a strong drug, but it isn't that strong that it makes you forget you have a wife..or that you got married...or knowing that what you are doing or about to do is wrong.

 

OK...we will agree to disagree. IME...alcohol makes normally smart sane people do REALLY dumb things which ordinarily would NOT happen. Again, with a smirk, I was there far too many times in my youth. Sigh.

 

Alcohol is just an excuse. It's no different than someone saying, "I had sex with him because I'm so in love I couldn't help myself." Love is an intoxication, too. It makes you WANT to do things you wouldn't otherwise do. But in the end, it's still an excuse. And you can still control it, if you really want to.

 

Yes and no. Drinking to excess is a choice...but often the actions of a drunk are truly NOT that person. I think we have ALL been there. At least I have. And, learning from my mistakes...I don't drink to excess precisely because a potential after effect of drinking is...pregnancy. I saw that in a bar somewhere...

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Or maybe I simply accept that like I bolded above...alcohol allows for behaviors that would NOT happen if sober. And I give THAT weight.

[jwi71]

I guess I should have just grabbed a couple bottles of vodka, got drunk, and had a one night stand with the OM rather than spent 7 months fighting the feelings I had to have sex with him.

 

It would have been more forgivable?

 

I dunno...

 

Ask your H...which is worse:

 

1) A calculated betrayal

2) Drinking to excess and having a ONS

 

I say one...what do YOU think.

 

And why.

[Snowflower]

I laughed to myself at reading this. I think virtually ALL men can relate to putting on the beer goggles and waking up naked next to some female (also naked) and wonder "How the hell did this happen?"

 

Followed by..."What's her name?"

 

Followed by..."I hope she isn't too ugly"

 

In fact, I bet a good many women can relate to that as well!!!

 

 

 

OK...we will agree to disagree. IME...alcohol makes normally smart sane people do REALLY dumb things which ordinarily would NOT happen. Again, with a smirk, I was there far too many times in my youth. Sigh.

 

 

 

Yes and no. Drinking to excess is a choice...but often the actions of a drunk are truly NOT that person. I think we have ALL been there. At least I have. And, learning from my mistakes...I don't drink to excess precisely because a potential after effect of drinking is...pregnancy. I saw that in a bar somewhere...

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Or maybe I simply accept that like I bolded above...alcohol allows for behaviors that would NOT happen if sober. And I give THAT weight.

 

LOL! Parts of this post make me laugh!

 

I think some of the difference of opinion here stems from the fact that at least in my experience, men and women view sex differently. JWI71's post clearly shows a typical "guy's view" of casual/ONS sex.

 

Not that women don't go out and have ONS--it's just a little more unusual-at least from what I have seen. And if a woman does go out and have a ONS--she is more likely to attach some meaning from it (wow, he must have really liked me) than a guy in the same situation (again, look at the JW's post here).

 

Again, I think this is where the destructiveness of EA's comes into play--especially for women. Women who get emotionally attached are much more likely to cross that physical boundary. Sure, there are married women who have ONS affairs and flings. But, if there is an EA going on...then the chances of it becoming a PA for a woman or much more likely.

 

I've probably digressed here a little bit--I just don't think EA's should be discounted as something not as serious because of the lack of the physical component--the physical part usually isn't too far behind.

[Tired03]

Of course severity matters.

Its one thing to come home and tell your spouse you bought...19.99 hair care "stuff".

Its entirely different to come home and say you bought a 10K diamond necklace for yourself.

Severity matters.

 

Of course severity matters, but both of them I call mistakes. One is a mistake of greater significance. A mistake in my academic mind is an error in judgement.

 

 

 

Except buying a house is NOT a simple process. It requires approvals and paperwork and everything else. At some point "mistake" is NO longer applicable as you have had time to think about what you are doing as you proceed through the steps. See the difference? You don't accidentally buy a house...at some point it becomes your INTENT to buy a house. And you plan and make arrangements to complete your goal. Just like an A.

 

You are making accident and mistake synonymous - that's where we disagree - it's a different use of the word.

 

 

And what do you call "mistakes" that require planning and forethought? Returning to the house...did you accidentally buy a house? Or an A. An A is NEVER a mistake (ONS maybe)...always intentional and at some point the INTENT IS to engage in actions that are reasonably likely to cause hurt to the spouse.

 

See above - you are calling accidents and mistakes the same thing - I am saying they are different. An accident is something that you didn't mean to cause - a mistake is a poor choice - bad decision.

 

 

You are confusing motive or consequences with INTENT. Because in your world people accidentally do "stuff" all the time...like buy things or cheat.

 

 

Wrong again - Mistake and Accident are two different things.

 

Do you hear me yet?

 

 

 

You are doing quite a bit of wordplay here in this thread. You are again and again trying to define an A as an accident or as a mistake. But they aren't. They are purposeful and planned actions with the intent to betray. And I don't know ANYONE who thinks betrayal does not hurt the betrayed.

 

No, that is NOT what I'm saying. Good gravy - I'm not doing wordplay - I was trying to figure out why my saying that something was a mistake caused such rancor.

 

Once again - the way *I* use the words - your mileage may vary - I was merely trying to come to an understanding.

 

Accident = Something completely unplanned, unintended and often with outside causality

 

Mistake = A POOR CHOICE OR ERROR IN JUDGEMENT

 

Honestly, in my experience, this is NOT an academic exercise for you.

And tired, if you are in an A right now...its not necessarily the end of all things. So whats your story morning glory?

 

Your experience with what, with me? You have none. None whatsoever. You presume WAY too much.

 

What you DO need to know about me is that I can't stand it when I don't understand what people mean or when they react in ways that *I* don't understand to what I am saying.

 

So, here again - definitions that *I* used and the way *I* meant them:

 

Intent - Knowingly causing the action - pre-planned

 

Mistake - An error in judgement, does not imply severity (severity is added by a modifier - a small mistake, a big mistake, a hell of a mistake)

 

Accident - Something totally unplanned and mostly unforseen

 

An affair is a mistake - a very BIG mistake, but an error in judgement nonetheless.

[Snowflower]

 

The reason I suggest a ONS (or PA) is worse than an EA is only in terms of THE BEHAVIOR...the DELIBERATION of the ACT. No one says, "OK, now I am going to fall in love with this person" and then sets out to do it. But this is what happens in many ONS's and with PA"s. The behavior is very deliberate and the goal is very clear. A person intent on having a ONS will say, "I'm gonna get some tonite, with her, if I'm lucky." They deliberately seduce with one goal in mind. And then they act on it physically, which to me is a huge leap. It's one thing to have lustful feelings. It's another thing to act on them. So, to me, the BEHAVIOR of the wayward involved in a ONS or PA is worse than that of a wayward involved in an EA. At least with an EA, there is some control...some INTENT NOT to cross that line.

 

Gotcha. And when a ONS is described as above or actually happens as you explained here, I agree that is pretty bad behavior on the part of the WS. I totally agree that this type of behavior from a WS shows a very callous disregard for the faithful spouse and for the marriage. I even agree that it could be considered 'worse' than an EA.

 

However, there are also other cases where this doesn't quite happen this way. And yes, I am defending my H. Why I am defending him, I don't know. Maybe it helps me make sense of things. But, I don't truly don't think he planned out ahead of time to do what he did. He made a very bad choice. I have not and will not explain everything that was going on with him and with our marriage at the time but he made a horrible choice in bad circumstances.

 

But as horrible as his choice was (to have the ONS), it is better IMO than him getting emotionally involved with the OW. And if he had "premeditated" the whole thing, that would have also been just as bad, if not worse than an EA.

[jwi71]

Of course severity matters, but both of them I call mistakes. One is a mistake of greater significance. A mistake in my academic mind is an error in judgement.

 

So how does "an error in judgement" refute intent again?

Using your house example...how is buying a house a mistake w/o intent?

No really explain this to me. Because at some point your "mistake" becomes intent. Unless you are going to try and explain how you mistakenly provided tax returns, W-2s, wrote out earnest money, filled out loan apps...please. You are rapidly losing credibility here. As at each step in the process you had to decide to continue...INTENT. This is true for A's and buying houses...or 19.99 hair care products.

 

 

See above - you are calling accidents and mistakes the same thing - I am saying they are different. An accident is something that you didn't mean to cause - a mistake is a poor choice - bad decision.

I love the bold part.

So an accident is something you didn't MEAN to cause.

And a mistake is poor judgment. Which implies, per what is in bold, that a MISTAKE carries intent otherwise it would be an accident.

 

Great so mistakes do HAVE intent.

 

 

Wrong again - Mistake and Accident are two different things.

 

Do you hear me yet?

Loud and clear.

A mistake is a "poor outcome" that is INTENDED via "poor choice - bad decision"

An accident is the outcome was not meant (unintended).

 

 

Accident = Something completely unplanned, unintended and often with outside causality

 

Mistake = A POOR CHOICE OR ERROR IN JUDGEMENT

Oh no...I get it...I'm not sure YOU do.

Mistake: Poor choice which leads to a bad yet INTENDED outcome

Accident: Completely UNPLANNED, UNINTENDED...

 

Gotcha...like I said, A's are NOT mistakes...they ARE intended.

Glad YOU agree...though I wonder why you spent so much time claiming they were "mistakes" and as such w/o intent. That was certainly my impression.

 

 

An affair is a mistake - a very BIG mistake, but an error in judgement nonetheless.

And with YOUR definitions, an accident has NO INTENT whereas a MISTAKE MUST have INTENT.

 

Otherwise, why use the two words? Get it?

[Tired03]

I wasn't saying that an error in judgement refuted intent.

 

I was replying as to my definition of mistake, which many people mistook for accident.

 

Intent - okay, let's see how I can explain this a little more clearly - I already used the banana analogy, I think I need a different one.

 

Here we go:

 

I post a story on the company intranet to illustrate a point about learning design. In the content of the story, there is a reference to people who don't like the new way of thinking being similar....to...oh, let's say Nazis.

 

Is my intent to offend anyone? Nope.

 

Is it an error in judgement (a mistake)? Yep, I should have read closer and thought about all the people it might offend.

 

Now, affairs can be different, and they can NOT be different than the above scenario. Depends on the type of affair and the circumstances around it.

 

It all depends on what you deem the "start" of an emotional affair (I think we've covered the drunken ONS pretty thoroughly here). Some people defined it as being an affair the minute one began to feel love or feelings for the other person. I disagree, I think the affair begins when secrecy is involved.

 

So, one can have an error in judgement in allowing someone to get close enough to you to fall in love (a mistake), without intending to hurt anyone.

 

Intent shows up when the secrecy starts, because then they are hiding that interaction because they know it would hurt the spouse.

[taylor]

I laughed to myself at reading this. I think virtually ALL men can relate to putting on the beer goggles and waking up naked next to some female (also naked) and wonder "How the hell did this happen?"

 

Followed by..."What's her name?"

 

Followed by..."I hope she isn't too ugly"

 

In fact, I bet a good many women can relate to that as well!!!

 

Of course when people drink to excess, they become less discerning of partners and because their sexual inhibitions are shed, they are more likely to have sex with an otherwise undesireable partner than they normally would.

 

But drinking to excess does not erase your memory. It doesn't make you forget that you are married. It doesn't make the drunk incapable of realizing he is committing adultery by having sex.

 

He's drunk. He didn't have a lobotomy or fall on his head and forget that he was married. Surely he would be coherent enough to know that the woman he was having sex with certainly was not his wife.

 

 

 

OK...we will agree to disagree. IME...alcohol makes normally smart sane people do REALLY dumb things which ordinarily would NOT happen. Again, with a smirk, I was there far too many times in my youth. Sigh.

 

I don't think too many BS whose spouses had drunken ONS's are smirking right now, ya think?

 

No, alcohol does not MAKE anyone do anything. People CHOOSE to do dumb things while under the influence. They feel more comfortable doing things with alcohol in them...like dance..like tell someone they love them..like get naked and run down the middle of the street.

 

But tell me this, if you were as drunk as the scenario you illustrate above, and someone gave you a gun, told you it was loaded, and told you to put it to your head and pull it, WOULD YOU? Would you know better than to do that..no matter how drunk you were? Would you know better than to sleep with someone not your wife?

 

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Or maybe I simply accept that like I bolded above...alcohol allows for behaviors that would NOT happen if sober. And I give THAT weight.

 

Again, would alcohol ALLOW you to kill yourself is someone handed you a loaded gone and told you to pull the trigger?

[Tired03]

But tell me this, if you were as drunk as the scenario you illustrate above, and someone gave you a gun, told you it was loaded, and told you to put it to your head and pull it, WOULD YOU? Would you know better than to do that..no matter how drunk you were? Would you know better than to sleep with someone not your wife?

 

Actually, I know people who have done similar things to this when under the influence of alcohol.

 

This isn't excusing any behavior - please don't misunderstand me - but I've seen people black out and do things exactly like you mentioned here.

[taylor]

I dunno...

 

Ask your H...which is worse:

 

1) A calculated betrayal

2) Drinking to excess and having a ONS

 

I say one...what do YOU think.

 

And why.

 

This is easy for me to answer as my husband and I have actually discussed this.

 

He does not view my EA as a calculated betrayal. He sees it as feelings that got out of hand at a time in our marriage when we had both pretty much checked out. He sees it as me falling for the advances of another man who entered the picture when our marriage was having a huge moment of weakness and we were both vulnerable and pushing each other away from the other. He told me he could have easily seen himself developing feelings for an attentive, compassionate woman had the opportunity been there for him as well.

 

So, to answer your question..number 2 would have been far worse for my husband. He said he could not have stomached the thought of me having sex with another man. He said the marriage would not have survived that. He is thankful, and so am I, that I did not cross the line into a physical affair. Actually, knowing how he felt about sex (my body belongs to him and him alone...keeping my body pure for him) may very well have been what kept me from crossing that line.

 

You know, when I first told my husband of the affair, his first question was NOT "Are you in love with him?" His first question was, "Did you kiss him?" and his second question, "Did you want to kiss him?" That told me alot.

[taylor]

Actually, I know people who have done similar things to this when under the influence of alcohol.

 

This isn't excusing any behavior - please don't misunderstand me - but I've seen people black out and do things exactly like you mentioned here.

 

You know people who were so drunk they shot themselves on purpose?

 

Do you think every person who commits an adulterous ONS is THAT drunk? Do you think every person who commits an adulterous ONS wakes up wondering who that person is next to them..doesn't know their name...never saw them before in their life...thought that person was hideous looking?

 

I don't buy that for one minute.