On "Intent"

[NoIDidn't]

I think that is the whole point to the secrecy and the lies...because WS know the cheating is wrong and would hurt and that is NOT what they want to do ( at least not all WS want to intentionally hurt)....otherwise if WS do not care they would just do it openly and blatantly.

 

LOL! You don't actually believe this, do you? LOL

 

Wow. And I always thought they kept secrets and lied to cover their on azzes....

 

Yeah, me too. Let's see. I'm cheating on my H and I don't want to get caught so I hide it. I'm not hiding it because I don't want my H to get hurt by my actions. If he ever finds out, he'll definitely be hurt. I'm hiding it because I don't want to acknowledge or deal with his hurt OR stop having my affair. Geez!

 

The rationalizations will never cease to amaze me. LOL.

 

(And, no, desertmoon, this is not directed at you - just at the sentiment that you expressed, lol)

[desertmoon]

LOL! You don't actually believe this' date=' do you? LOL[/quote']

 

Absolutely. I didn't have an affair so I can hurt my husband---whatever my reasons were, it was not to get back at him or so that he would feel how it is to be cheated on. You can dismiss it all you want, some people are not as hateful or vindictive as most BSs here.

 

Yeah, me too. Let's see. I'm cheating on my H and I don't want to get caught so I hide it. I'm not hiding it because I don't want my H to get hurt by my actions. If he ever finds out, he'll definitely be hurt.

I do not know if your husband cheated on you or not, but if he did and his reason was to hurt you--well, either you married an evil person, or someone with psych issues or you did something horrible to him for him to take such drastic actions to hurt you profoundly.

 

I'm hiding it because I don't want to acknowledge or deal with his hurt OR stop having my affair. Geez!

This could be the reason. Where is the conscious decision to be involved in an affair to hurt the spouse? Hurting the spouse is the direct result of the affair, not the reason for the affair, in most cases. But like i said, maybe in yours ( if you have been cheated on) it was-oh well...

 

(And, no, desertmoon, this is not directed at you - just at the sentiment that you expressed, lol)

LOL...this very lame play of words, never ceases to amaze, too!

[NoIDidn't]

Absolutely. I didn't have an affair so I can hurt my husband---whatever my reasons were, it was not to get back at him or so that he would feel how it is to be cheated on. You can dismiss it all you want, some people are not as hateful or vindictive as most BSs here.

 

How easily you judge others based on your defensiveness. All I said was, "you don't believe this, do you?" And meant it as just that.

 

 

I do not know if your husband cheated on you or not, but if he did and his reason was to hurt you--well, either you married an evil person, or someone with psych issues or you did something horrible to him for him to take such drastic actions to hurt you profoundly.

 

This could be the reason. Where is the conscious decision to be involved in an affair to hurt the spouse? Hurting the spouse is the direct result of the affair, not the reason for the affair, in most cases. But like i said, maybe in yours ( if you have been cheated on) it was-oh well...

 

Again, only taking offense and not considering what was said. Shame.

 

LOL...this very lame play of words, never ceases to amaze, too!

 

No play on words, I wasn't addressing YOU just the thoughts that could have been said by anyone. But I understand that you have to make it about you to arouse your feelings of indignation and your witty comebacks.

[NoIDidn't]

Desertmoon, let me expand upon my thoughts on intent.

 

My H and I were having this conversation just today.

 

I don't believe that most married people having affairs intend to hurt anyone, but they know that their actions will and yet they do it anyway.

 

And like you said, if I ever cheated on my H, it wouldn't be for revenge. It would be for my own gratification. His feelings wouldn't enter into my mind other than to avoid him ever having to know so his feelings would never come into play.

 

Putting this question on the flip side: does the OP think that the MP intended to hurt them with the affair? My experience on these forums tell me that when the MP doesn't divorce for them, they feel used and like the MP was just playing games with them. Would your answer be the same? That the MP didn't intend to hurt the OP?

[desertmoon]

How easily you judge others based on your defensiveness. All I said was, "you don't believe this, do you?" And meant it as just that.

 

How is that judging others? I am expressing my opinion based only on my personal experience. When you asked that question, I answered it and gave the reason why I believe it---it is MY truth. Who is judging who here?

 

Again, only taking offense and not considering what was said. Shame.

 

How was that taking offense?. I think you are a little confused or maybe just do not have a rebuttal.

 

No play on words, I wasn't addressing YOU just the thoughts that could have been said by anyone. But I understand that you have to make it about you to arouse your feelings of indignation and your witty comebacks.

 

Indignation? don't be so dramatic. I just think it's funny that you had to put that disclaimer-I suspect because what you were doing was precisely the thing that you were trying to excuse yourself.

[NoIDidn't]

How easily you judge others based on your defensiveness. All I said was, "you don't believe this, do you?" And meant it as just that.

 

How is that judging others? I am expressing my opinion based only on my personal experience. When you asked that question, I answered it and gave the reason why I believe it---it is MY truth. Who is judging who here?

 

 

 

How was that taking offense?. I think you are a little confused or maybe just do not have a rebuttal.

 

 

 

Indignation? don't be so dramatic. I just think it's funny that you had to put that disclaimer-I suspect because what you were doing was precisely the thing that you were trying to excuse yourself.

 

 

Your words are right above mine, but apparently you can't read them for yourself.

 

You basically turned everything into "bitter BSs" or "maybe you can't understand because your husband cheated on you" BS.

 

You're not interested in real conversation so I'm done. You ignored my expanded answer completely.

 

My disclaimer was trying to avoid the foolishness that you came with anyway.

 

You are only interested in defending your actions. This thread is a discussion on intent. I discussed. You defended. But I guess its because you can't tell the difference between the two.

[desertmoon]

I don't believe that most married people having affairs intend to hurt anyone' date=' but they know that their actions will and yet they do it anyway.[/quote']

 

And this is precisely what I was saying....asking me, (sarcastically, I may add) this:

LOL! You don't actually believe this, do you? LOL

 

Does not even make sense now because we practically are saying the same thing---nobody is denying that cheating will cause harm and hurt the other. BUT most spouses cheat not because they want to INTENTIONALLY hurt the other-most are hoping or believe they can somehow hide it-which of course is a bit naive...because apparently from most of the posts here, it is almost always discovered.

 

Putting this question on the flip side: does the OP think that the MP intended to hurt them with the affair? My experience on these forums tell me that when the MP doesn't divorce for them, they feel used and like the MP was just playing games with them. Would your answer be the same? That the MP didn't intend to hurt the OP?

 

Yes, my answer would be the same. Both have the same devastating results. But I really do not believe that people form relationships INTENDING to hurt the other person. BUT like I said, if the person is in a relationship intending to hurt the person at the onset....well, then, that person really has some major issues psychologically or one has done something horrible to deserve it-it doesn't make it right or justifies the actions, it just makes is so.

[desertmoon]

 

 

Your words are right above mine, but apparently you can't read them for yourself.

 

nor understand, apparently ...I do not know what you mean by this statement.

 

You basically turned everything into "bitter BSs" or "maybe you can't understand because your husband cheated on you" BS.

 

Where did I say this? I do not even know if your H cheated on you. You are attributing things to me that only exist in your mind....now who is being defensive here?

 

You're not interested in real conversation so I'm done. You ignored my expanded answer completely.

 

Actually, for some strange reason, I did not see the 'expanded answer'. but if you are done, then you are done. Cest la vie!

 

My disclaimer was trying to avoid the foolishness that you came with anyway.

 

Oh is it? or was I right on target?

 

You are only interested in defending your actions. This thread is a discussion on intent. I discussed. You defended. But I guess its because you can't tell the difference between the two.

 

Maybe in your world, asking a sarcastic question is "discussion". LOL...if you have not been so "intent" in proving me wrong and trying to discredit me, you would have realized that we were basically saying the same things. Read your "expanded answer"...tell me how different that is from my original view of "intent to hurt".

 

LOL..I can't tell the difference? and of course, you can :rolleyes:!

[pelicanpreacher]

 

Does not even make sense now because we practically are saying the same thing---nobody is denying that cheating will cause harm and hurt the other. BUT most spouses cheat not because they want to INTENTIONALLY hurt the other-most are hoping or believe they can somehow hide it-which of course is a bit naive...because apparently from most of the posts here, it is almost always discovered.

 

 

 

Yes, my answer would be the same. Both have the same devastating results. But I really do not believe that people form relationships INTENDING to hurt the other person. BUT like I said, if the person is in a relationship intending to hurt the person at the onset....well, then, that person really has some major issues psychologically or one has done something horrible to deserve it-it doesn't make it right or justifies the actions, it just makes is so.

 

I think that the core message of my post was either convoluted or missed altogether so I'll try one more time to express my opininion with better clarity this time.

 

I contend that for a MP to form the intent to cheat on their spouse they must arrive at an intent to do harm mindset that says "I do not care if the harmful act that I intend to engage hurts my SO, marriage partnership(s), or anyone else collateraly involved with my action in defense of (whatever rationalization is soup of the day). Therefore, if you engage in an affair since you don't care (or even care enough if you want to relevate culpability) about the ramifications of your act upon others then you have formed the requisite intent to do harm to your SO, marriage partnership(s), etc.. for you should know or should have known that your act would cause harm by the nature of your action prior to committing the act yet still engaged such act with callous and reckless disreguard to the anticipated resulting harm (be it known or perceived) to any affected parties involved. I believe another poster defined it as "Constructive Intent" (I apologize for being too lazy to look up the post to provide accurate acknowledgement)

 

The only circumstance where individuals engaged in an affair shall be acquitted the charge of INTENT TO DO HARM shall be construed under the narrow interpretation that if the SO, marriage partnership(s), and collateral parties named as PLAINTIFFS severally contend that "ALL PARTIES PRESENTED NEITHER CARE, HAVE NEVER BEEN AGGRIEVED IN ANY PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL OR SPIRITUAL CAPACITY BY SAID INFIDELITY, NOR HAVE SUFFERED ANY ANTICIPATED OR UNANTICIPATED FINANCIAL LOSS(S) AS A DIRECT OR INDIRECT RESULT FROM SUCH ACTIVITY THAT MAY HAVE OCCURRED DURING THE PERIOD EVIDENCED FROM ( mm/yy/dd to mm/yy/dd) BETWEEN NAMED DEFENDANTS AND THEREFORE HAVE NOT BEEN DISSAFFECTED BY THE ACTIONS OF THE DEFENDANT(S) WHETHER SAID ACTIONS OF INFIDELITY WERE KNOWN OR UNKNOWN TO ANY PARY INVOLVED PRIOR OR SUBSEQUENT TO DISCOVERY"!

 

If you'd like to continue to argue the spirit's impetus of my post please, please, please, stay on point!

 

The bottom line remains that the moment one entertains the notion of engaging an affair you've most likely (99.99999%) intended to to harm. Again, life is black and white and all is well with the world!

 

Thanks!

[desertmoon]

PelicanPreacher, I thought you and I were done discussing this. You had the last word, did you not? (see post#99). I understand what you are trying to say, but, I believe what I believe and you and I will just have to disagree and leave it at that.

[citizen67]

Pelican's right of course. I guy I was in a long term realtionship with starting dating someone in my bldg - this has been awful for me. Its very in my face, and hurtful. I confronted him and said "how could you?" he said "it was not my intent to hurt you." I asked "but did you know it would hurt me?" He said "yes". I said "so then you intended to hurt me."

[Owl]

So, if I understand you correctly, this is more like someone who gets in the car drunk and drives and hurts people.

 

Do they desire to harm anyone? No. But they do through their stupid action.

 

When someone makes a stupid choice, I tend to call that a mistake. I think this is a terminology difference (because I also call what you are as defining as Desire, Intent) so i want to make sure I'm clear here too.

 

An accident, for me, is different than a mistake - an accident is like elbowing someone you didn't know was there.

 

Is that terminology what you all mean?

 

It's what I mean, yes.

 

But I don't consider a drunk driver as someone who "makes a mistake". Nor do I consider someone who throws a rock into a crowd as someone who made a mistake. Same thing applies to someone who engages in infidelity.

 

Because regardless of an actual desire to see someone hurt...all three examples outline people who engaged in activities that they knew very likely WOULD hurt someone, eventually.

 

Sure, many WS's attempt to conduct some mental judo and convince themselves that no one will ever find out...but they really know that they are RISKING exactly that...and that outlines what I mean by INTENT.

 

If I throw a rock at a crowd of people, I may well not have intended to hurt the guy wearing the blue jacket...but that doesn't negate the fact that throwing the rock at a crowd was very likely to hurt SOMEONE.

 

If a person engages in activities that they KNOW that their spouse would be devestated to know about...there's your "INTENT".

[Mr. Lucky]

If I throw a rock at a crowd of people, I may well not have intended to hurt the guy wearing the blue jacket...but that doesn't negate the fact that throwing the rock at a crowd was very likely to hurt SOMEONE.

I can relate to this personally as I had a good friend (at the time) that drove home drunk from an after party for a golf tournament and ran a stop sign, hitting a car and killing an 8-year child that was a passenger inside. All he wanted to tell people in the aftermath was that he never "intended" to hurt anyone. As a parent and were it my child, not only would I not find any consolation in that statement but its very lack of acceptance for the responsibilty behind the actions would make me even angrier.

 

Even if a WS doesn't intend to harm, they intend to put their spouse in harm's way...

 

Mr. Lucky

[taylor]

Because regardless of an actual desire to see someone hurt...all three examples outline people who engaged in activities that they knew very likely WOULD hurt someone, eventually.

 

Sure, many WS's attempt to conduct some mental judo and convince themselves that no one will ever find out...but they really know that they are RISKING exactly that...and that outlines what I mean by INTENT.

 

If I throw a rock at a crowd of people, I may well not have intended to hurt the guy wearing the blue jacket...but that doesn't negate the fact that throwing the rock at a crowd was very likely to hurt SOMEONE.

 

If a person engages in activities that they KNOW that their spouse would be devestated to know about...there's your "INTENT".

 

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here, Owl. That doesn't happen very often.

 

I guess I define intent very narrowly. You intend to hurt someone if you plan to hurt that person by embarking on one or more actions designed to cause that person pain.

 

It was never my intention to hurt my husband by developing feelings for another man. I had no reason to want to hurt my husband. I had no desire to cause him any pain. I did not set out on a course of action designed to inflict pain on my husband.

 

But I do believe people hurt others unintentionally. They know by their actions that it is most likely that other person will get hurt but it is not their desire for that to happen. If they could continue on in their course of action WITHOUT hurting that other person, that would be their ideal scenario. Again, it is not their desire or purpose to inflict pain. It is not the goal.

 

A man who enjoys porn KNOWS this activity will hurt his wife yet he continues to do it because he enjoys it. Would you say this man INTENDED to hurt his wife by watching porn...his goal or intent was to hurt her?

 

When I was a teen 3 neighborhood boys were playing with BB guns, shooting at things they threw up in the air. One boy shot another in the eye. Of course all three knew there was a risk that playing with BB guns could result in someone getting physically hurt. But they did not set out to intentionally hurt their friend.

 

I don't think drunk drivers INTEND to kill anyone, either, when they get behind the wheel. For most, the intention is to just arrive safely at their destination. They take a huge risk because the odds are high that someone will get hurt...them or someone else. But I don't think they drink and then get behind the wheel with the desire..the purpose..to hurt themselves or anyone else.

 

A couple lesser examples...

 

My father moved 1200 miles away from me while I was pregnant with his first grandchild. It hurt me terribly, and he knew it, that he would not be a big part of his grandchild's life. Did he INTEND to hurt me by moving so far away? Did he INTEND to hurt his grandchild? He KNEW his actions would hurt us but he did them anyways.

 

A friend of mine drank every day of her life for the past 11 years. She was a loving mother when sober but cranky and verbally abusive when she drank. It also took a huge toll on her physical health. Her drinking severely affected the lives of her children and she KNEW it. Did she continue to drink because it was her INTENT to hurt her children? Did she want to cause them the pain that she did?

 

I have a younger friend whose fiance recently called off their engagement (he wasn't ready). She was terribly hurt by his actions...he went back and forth like a ping pong ball for over 6 months..and then finally ended it. He KNEW his actions were hurting her. Did he intend to hurt her. Of course not, but he knew he would.

 

People hurt other people all the time with no INTENT to do it. Most people truly do not have a desire to hurt one other but it happens anyways. Most regret that they hurt people they had no intention or desire to hurt.

[taylor]

You know, my MC has told me on numerous occassions that the person I hurt the most with my EA was MYSELF.

 

I knew when I entered into the EA...found myself being drawn in deeper and deeper...throwing caution to the wind...letting myself become open and vulnerable to the other man...that somehow, and at some time, I would end up getting hurt.

 

I KNEW I would get hurt by getting involved with the other man.

 

Was it my intention to hurt myself? Was it my intention to cause myself pain? Did I set out on a course of action with the intent of inflicting harm against myself. NO.

 

My sole intent was to find immediate relief from the pain of a broken marriage. My intent was to find a way to feel good about myself again. My intent was to find a little ray of sunshine in a sky of never ending storm clouds. My intent was to end some of my pain...some of my hurt...not bring pain to anyone else.

 

I can't speak for anyone else who entered an EA, but I know in my case, I did not think about how my feelings for another man would affect my husband. I did not think about how this other man's attention toward me would affect my husband. I did not think about my husband at all..good or bad. And there certainly was NO THOUGHT of wanting to hurt him in any way.

 

If anything, the only person I thought would get hurt by the affair was myself since I had let my emotions become involved.

[Have to Wonder]

I can't speak for anyone else who entered an EA, but I know in my case, I did not think about how my feelings for another man would affect my husband. I did not think about how this other man's attention toward me would affect my husband. I did not think about my husband at all..good or bad. And there certainly was NO THOUGHT of wanting to hurt him in any way.

 

QUOTE]

 

Interesting - I know I'm new here, but I was reading through other threads & came across this. I am also the one who betrayed my H. And I didn't think about how my actions would affect my husband either AT THE TIME I WAS ACTING...I, too, wasn't thinking about my husband at all at the time. I would never WANT to hurt him either, so I have to say I understand the quoted part of your post exactly.

[Mr. Lucky]

I can't speak for anyone else who entered an EA, but I know in my case, I did not think about how my feelings for another man would affect my husband. I did not think about how this other man's attention toward me would affect my husband. I did not think about my husband at all..good or bad. And there certainly was NO THOUGHT of wanting to hurt him in any way.

I don't see how that can be truthful. It never once entered your mind that this other man's attention, whether emotional or physical, had the potential to "affect" your husband and marriage in a profound way ? If not, then why keep the relationship secret?

 

Hard for me to believe...

 

Mr. Lucky

[taylor]

I don't see how that can be truthful. It never once entered your mind that this other man's attention, whether emotional or physical, had the potential to "affect" your husband and marriage in a profound way ? If not, then why keep the relationship secret?

 

Hard for me to believe...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

By the time I entered the EA, my husband and I had both pretty much checked out of the marriage. The only thing left between us were the insults, criticisms, cutting words, and silence. We were leading parallel lives. He was in his world and I was in mine.

 

Did I worry about how affair feelings would hurt my marriage in a profound way. NO. By the time I entered the EA I felt my husband and I had done ENOUGH on our own to hurt the marriage profoundly and beyond repair. I already had one foot out the door and felt like he was taking every opportunity to shove me the rest of the way out. I truly did not think he cared anymore. I tried hard to convince myself that I didn't care anymore either. That way it wouldn't hurt anymore. We were both playing the "I don't care anymore" game.

 

So, NO, how affair feelings were going to affect my husband or my marriage absolutely did not cross my mind at l.

 

The other reason my husband and marriage were not even a consideration when I entered the EA was because I continued to deny the depth of my feelings for the other man. I had myself convinced that as long as nothing physical happened...no touching, no kissing...that I was doing absolutely nothing wrong. If I was doing nothing wrong, why should I worry about how it would affect my husband or marriage?

 

It wasn't until after the affair ended, that I realized how deep my feelings for this othe man were and how dependent I had become on him for happiness. It wasn't until then that I realized how far from my marriage and from my husband I had drifted. It wasn't until then that I realized how much damage the affair had on an already troubled marriage.

 

Wayward spouses do not set out to deliberately hurt their husbands or wives by having an affair. They are not guilty of INTENT. But what we, as waywards, are guilty of is being SHORT-SIGHTED and SELFISH.

 

We are irresponsibly short-sighted because we do not look past the "dazzling" affair partner and the "glistening" affair to see what the potential damage...the potential consequences are. We don't want to. It's like watching fireworks on the Fourth of July. We are so caught up in the moment with the exhileration and wonder of the affair, we do not take time to "see" or consider anything else. Who wants to look at the ground when brilliant colors are bursting in the sky above you?

 

We are selfish in that the happiness and enjoyment we derive from the affair and the affair partner becomes so important to us that nothing else matters...nothing. And so we don't give anything else any thought or consideration.

[taylor]

If not, then why keep the relationship secret?

 

My husband knew about the OM and knew we had a close friendship.

 

And the funny thing is HE recognized things were getting "too" close even before I did. But he didn't say a word...for months.

 

I shared many conversations I had with the OM with my husband. My husband even helped me shop for birthday gifts for the OM's kids and made inquiries of possible job openings for the OM, at my request. I even showed my husband a text message from the OM saying how he missed me.

 

My husband and I were both in denial about what was happening. We both kept telling ourselves my relationship with the OM was "just friends."

 

I think things could have gone on like this forever, except the day came when the OM admitted feelings for me and I, in turn, admitted feelings to him.

 

The affair ended within days, but not until feelings for him were deeply embedded.

[Reggie]

My husband knew about the OM and knew we had a close friendship.

 

And the funny thing is HE recognized things were getting "too" close even before I did. But he didn't say a word...for months.

 

I shared many conversations I had with the OM with my husband. My husband even helped me shop for birthday gifts for the OM's kids and made inquiries of possible job openings for the OM, at my request. I even showed my husband a text message from the OM saying how he missed me.

 

My husband and I were both in denial about what was happening. We both kept telling ourselves my relationship with the OM was "just friends."

 

I think things could have gone on like this forever, except the day came when the OM admitted feelings for me and I, in turn, admitted feelings to him.

 

The affair ended within days, but not until feelings for him were deeply embedded.

 

This sounds more like you were rubbing your H's face in your affair.

As for intent I like the constructive intent or reckless disregard analysis. Still pretty diabolical.

[Owl]

I guess I define intent very narrowly. You intend to hurt someone if you plan to hurt that person by embarking on one or more actions designed to cause that person pain.

 

I see your point...but...here's my thoughts on this, Taylor. I'd re-write your sentence to this:

 

I guess I define intent very narrowly. You intend to hurt someone if you plan to hurt that person by embarking on one or more actions {that you know will] cause that person pain.

 

See the difference here?

 

You can't state that you didn't intend to hurt someone when you knowingly engaged in activities that you knew would hurt them in some fashion.

 

That's the difference here.

 

It wasn't an accident. The WS knew what they were doing.

 

It wasn't a mistake. The WS knew what they were doing.

 

It was intentional, because the WS was well aware that the likely results of their actions (regardless of whether or not they desired that outcome) would be to hurt their spouse.

 

Again, don't confuse desire with intent.

 

See my viewpoint?

[Tired03]

I see a difference in how we communicate Owl - it's very interesting.

 

I view a mistake as "a poor choice" - without giving it weight as to severity.

 

For instance, in my definition, you could make a mistake in buying a new house, or you could make a mistake in jumping off a cliff. Both are mistakes - errors in judgement. The word in and of itself to me does not imply severity nor intent.

 

Accidents to me are unintended - I accidentally tripped over the tree root, I accidentally fell out a window. I also believe that mistakes can lead up to accidents. I was playing near the window and I accidentally fell out. The mistake in this case was playing near the window, but the falling out of the window was an unintended consequence.

 

Intent has many definitions - you do have the legal one that has been quoted somewhere in the thread, but here's princeton's:

 

"purpose: an anticipated outcome that is intended or that guides your planned actions; "his intent was to provide a new translation"; "good intentions are not enough"; "it was created with the conscious aim of answering immediate needs"; "he made no secret of his designs""

 

So, this was the definition I knew for the word intent and when I talk about a spouse not intending to hurt the other spouse - they aren't intending the hurt to occur, and they may or may not be intending the affair to occur, but that is the end result.

[jwi71]

I view a mistake as "a poor choice" - without giving it weight as to severity.

 

Of course severity matters.

Its one thing to come home and tell your spouse you bought...19.99 hair care "stuff".

Its entirely different to come home and say you bought a 10K diamond necklace for yourself.

Severity matters.

 

And of course..you INTENDED to buy both those items.

 

For instance, in my definition, you could make a mistake in buying a new house

Except buying a house is NOT a simple process. It requires approvals and paperwork and everything else. At some point "mistake" is NO longer applicable as you have had time to think about what you are doing as you proceed through the steps. See the difference? You don't accidentally buy a house...at some point it becomes your INTENT to buy a house. And you plan and make arrangements to complete your goal. Just like an A.

 

Buying the house is NOT a mistake. You planned and intended to buy it. What you call a mistake are little more than negative consequences...like a PITI you can't afford. You like to maintain that because you cannot afford the PITI..it was a mistake. The answer is...think then act. NOT act, then call everything a mistake.

 

 

Accidents to me are unintended - I accidentally tripped over the tree root, I accidentally fell out a window. I also believe that mistakes can lead up to accidents. I was playing near the window and I accidentally fell out. The mistake in this case was playing near the window, but the falling out of the window was an unintended consequence.

And what do you call "mistakes" that require planning and forethought? Returning to the house...did you accidentally buy a house? Or an A. An A is NEVER a mistake (ONS maybe)...always intentional and at some point the INTENT IS to engage in actions that are reasonably likely to cause hurt to the spouse.

 

"purpose: an anticipated outcome that is intended or that guides your planned actions; "his intent was to provide a new translation"; "good intentions are not enough"; "it was created with the conscious aim of answering immediate needs"; "he made no secret of his designs""

How is buying a hair care "Stuff" NOT the result of one's intent to buy such?

How is buying a house NOT the result of intending to buy a house?

How is having an A NOT the result of intending to have an A?

 

You are confusing motive or consequences with INTENT. Because in your world people accidentally do "stuff" all the time...like buy things or cheat. Sorry, but all human actions must have two things...opportunity and will (intent). And lll actions have consequences. And some actions have well known and reasonable outcomes...cheating hurts the betrayed.

 

So, this was the definition I knew for the word intent and when I talk about a spouse not intending to hurt the other spouse - they aren't intending the hurt to occur, and they may or may not be intending the affair to occur, but that is the end result.

You are doing quite a bit of wordplay here in this thread. You are again and again trying to define an A as an accident or as a mistake. But they aren't. They are purposeful and planned actions with the intent to betray. And I don't know ANYONE who thinks betrayal does not hurt the betrayed.

 

Honestly, in my experience, this is NOT an academic exercise for you.

And tired, if you are in an A right now...its not necessarily the end of all things. So whats your story morning glory?

[taylor]

I see your point...but...here's my thoughts on this, Taylor. I'd re-write your sentence to this:

 

I guess I define intent very narrowly. You intend to hurt someone if you plan to hurt that person by embarking on one or more actions {that you know will] cause that person pain.

 

See the difference here?

 

You can't state that you didn't intend to hurt someone when you knowingly engaged in activities that you knew would hurt them in some fashion.

 

That's the difference here.

 

It wasn't an accident. The WS knew what they were doing.

 

It wasn't a mistake. The WS knew what they were doing.

 

It was intentional, because the WS was well aware that the likely results of their actions (regardless of whether or not they desired that outcome) would be to hurt their spouse.

 

Again, don't confuse desire with intent.

 

See my viewpoint?

 

I did not think my feelings for the OM would hurt my husband. I did not plan on ever telling him that I had developed an infatuation. I believed I could contain my feelings and control my actions so that nothing physical happened. As long as the OM and I did not get physical, I did not think I was doing anything to hurt my husband.

 

I succeeded in preventing anything physical from happening, but I failed at containing my feelings. Once the OM admitted feelings, I lost control of my emotions and admitted feelings as well. I did not realize until well after the affair was over, that my involvement with the OM actually damaged my marriage and pulled my husband and I farther apart. I was so caught up with the OM I wasn't paying any attention as to what it was doing to my marriage.

 

******

 

I still don't think that because YOU KNOW your actions might hurt someone that you actually INTENDED to hurt them.

 

I refer back to my dad's moving away. My dad KNEW full well that his moving away would, and DID, hurt me deeply. He packed up and left town without a moment's hesitation, KNOWING he was hurting me. He didn't think twice about it. He didn't hold back or stop for one second to reconsider.

 

Yet, even though he KNEW he would be hurting me by moving so far away, I still do not believe he had any INTENTION of hurting me.

 

I also cite my friend again. Every day she lifted the beer bottle to her lips she hurt her children. She KNEW she was hurting her children who begged her to stop.

 

Yet I do not believe it was her intent to hurt her children. She loved her children and when she was sober she gave 100 % of herself to them. Her only intention was to soothe inner pain buried deep inside her. She used alcohol as an escape. Her motivation to use alcohol had nothing to do with her children.

 

You know, I have a girlfriend who is angry at her mother because her mother smoked cigarettes for 40 years and now has terminal lung cancer. She is angry at her mother, claiming that if her mother loved her she would not have smoked and risked cutting her life short. My girlfriend feels "cheated" because she is going to lose her mother at an early age.

 

Would you say people who smoke do so with the intention of hurting their family members? People who smoke KNOW they are putting second hand smoke in the air which they know can lead to health problems for anyone breathing it in on a regular basis. People who smoke KNOW they are risking their own health, long term chronic lung disease and cancer. They KNOW their life expectancy will probably be cut short. They KNOW they will leave loved ones behind far sooner than they would if they didn't smoke.

 

Yet, they continue to smoke, KNOWING that they are going to end up hurting their loved ones in one way or another. Again, do you think smokers INTEND to hurt their spouses and children every time they pick up a cigarette and decide to smoke it?

 

Just because a person KNOWS an action might hurt someone, doesn't mean they INTEND to hurt that person. Intent to me implies doing something deliberately, with a goal or purpose, and with determination and resolve.

 

I just don't believe many waywards enter an affair with such malice to inflict this much damage on their marriage or to inflict this much pain upon their spouse with DELIBERATION, PURPOSE, RESOLVE and DETERMINATION...unless of course it's a revenge affair or an exit affair with total resentment toward their partner.

 

I think in most cases spouses are UNINTENTIONAL casualties of an affair.

 

Kind of like the dropping of a bomb. No one wants innocent civilians hurt. The intent is to incapacitate warfare ability, not to kill children. But everyone KNOWS dropping a bomb will kill innocents. Would you say the person who decided to drop a bomb does so with the intention of killing children? I would say he EXPECTS children will be killed, but it is not his INTENTION to kill children.

 

With all this said, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

I will agree, though, that waywards DO NEED to ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY for hurting their spouse by their choice to enter an affair, regardless of whether it was their intention to cause damage or not.

 

And instead of trying to define the word INTENT, just talk to your wayward spouse and decide for yourself where his head and heart were at the time. Whether he or she chose to act maliciously against you or not is yours to figure out within the confines of your own relationship. The truth will fall in different places for each couple.

[taylor]

you plan and make arrangements to complete your goal. Just like an A.

 

And what do you call "mistakes" that require planning and forethought? Returning to the house...did you accidentally buy a house? Or an A. An A is NEVER a mistake (ONS maybe).

 

 

One night stands are not mistakes or accidents either. Why suggest they are any different than a physical affair? They still involve a number of deliberate decisions and ACTION.

 

I had an emotional affair, meaning I let my feelings for another man grow strong and deep. Did I make a decision every day to continue engaging in conversation with this man? Yes. Did I make a decision every day to think about this man? Yes. Did I fight off desire to get physical with this man every day? Yes.

 

A number of posters on this forum have engaged in PA's. They made a number of deliberate decisions to engage an affair partner and a number of deliberate decisions that led up to physical sexual contact.

 

So how is the ONS any less of an affair?

 

A person who engages in a one night stand makes a series of deliberate decisions and acts on them. His decision to have sex with another is not a mistake or an accident. He chooses to and he takes deliberate steps in order to. No mistake or accident here.

 

He decides to approach. He decides to flirt..to proposition. He plans where the ONS is to take place (apartment, hotel, car, park) and he deliberately chooses to go there with his affair partner, either at that point of time, or they set a "date and time" for the future.

 

Once together, he decides to follow through with his proposition. He decides to kiss and touch. He decides to remove each article of his clothing. He decides to remove his partner's clothing, or decides to watch her remove her clothing. He decides to have sex in the manner in which he would like to have it.

 

Decisions, decisions, decisions. Many of them. All culminating in one sex act. At any point in time he is given the choice to stop the ONS. Over and over again, with each step he takes, he is choosing not to.

 

A physical affair is no different than a ONS...it's just the same decisions over and over again.

 

No mistake. No accident. No "it just happened." It happened because he decided to make it happen.

 

 

They (affairs) are purposeful and planned actions with the intent to betray.

 

The INTENT of an affair is to satisfy a need or desire. The CONSEQUENCE of an affair is a hurt, betrayed spouse.

 

And ONS's are just as purposeful and planned and are just as much of a betrayal.

 

When a man says, "Let's go out to my car..or back to my place" he has MADE A PLAN to have sex..to betray.

 

When a man starts to remove his and his partner's clothing, he is doing it WITH PURPOSE...to have sex...to betray.

 

I think in many ways a ONS is worse than an EA, at least in terms of behavior. The decisions seem so much more deliberate and purposeful and there is FAR MORE ACTION.