On "Intent"

[jwi71]

 

Sadly though, things do "just happen" that result in affairs.

 

I disagree.

 

I have never heard of anyone just accidentally having sex with another. It takes time, planning and of course desire by BOTH.

 

Sorry, but it was a well thought out and orchestrated courting of another which ended the way BOTH INTENDED and PLANNED...having sex with each other.

 

How does it "just happen"?

[Tired03]

Sex I sort of agree with you on jwi71 - with the odd exception of ONS where everyone is blitzed.

 

But EAs often don't involve intentional courting. In the cases I've described, they were friends who all of a sudden found themselves having feelings for one another even though no courting occurred.

[jwi71]

Well, now hang on - in the cases that I'm talking about, the H's knew about the OM, knew that they hung out, and they didn't share information with the OM that they would NOT share with others (as you've put it).

 

I have no idea of "the cases" you are talking about.

 

And do you see the lie in those cases?

How much do you want to bet the WS LIED about the TRUE nature of his/her R with the OM/OW to the BS? Because if the WS shared the true DEPTH of the R with the BS, then it wouldn't be an A now would it?

 

So, those things weren't there - they didn't act on the potential, but did develop feelings for the OM, which is when they either recommitted to their marriages, or left their marriages, before anything happened.

Didn't act on the potential? What would you call divorce? How can you cliam nothing happened when after having an EA, one filed for divorce?

 

And again, the same applies. Did the BS KNOW the depth of feelings for the OM/OW os was it lied about?

 

My guess...it was lied about.

[Tired03]

Of course you didn't see the cases.

 

How much do you want to bet the WS LIED about the TRUE nature of his/her R with the OM/OW to the BS? Because if the WS shared the true DEPTH of the R with the BS, then it wouldn't be an A now would it?

 

The WS in both cases DID share the depth of the R with the BS. In fact, they all hung out together, they talked about what they talked about etc. What happened was that the WS developed feelings for the OM, and then was at a crossroads.

 

When I say that they didn't act on it, I meant that they didn't conduct an affair in secret.

 

But according to what you said earlier, the very act of realizing that one has feelings, genuine feelings, for someone else means they intended to cheat. And I disagree.

[jwi71]

Sex I sort of agree with you on jwi71 - with the odd exception of ONS where everyone is blitzed.

 

We both agree that CHOOSING to go out w/o the spouse or friends, CHOOSING to drink past the point of a buzz and CHOOSING to engage in sex with a guy you just met...is an odd exception.

 

In my world its a series of bad decisions. But we will agree to disagree.

But EAs often don't involve intentional courting.

 

Strongly disagree. An EA is a strong emotional attachment to another. How is that not courting?

 

In the cases I've described, they were friends who all of a sudden found themselves having feelings for one another even though no courting occurred.

 

Wow...so one day your friends woke up and BAM...had feelings. I would have thought it was a slow, gradual give and take of emotions which led to love (feelings). I thought feelings developed when each CHOOSE to share a little more day by day until a bond formed. Guess I was wrong.

[Tired03]

Wow...so one day your friends woke up and BAM...had feelings. I would have thought it was a slow, gradual give and take of emotions which led to love (feelings). I thought feelings developed when each CHOOSE to share a little more day by day until a bond formed. Guess I was wrong.

 

Because these people were friends first, they already had a bond - a close one. And though the H's knew all about it - knew about the friendship and the nature, knew that they hung out (in fact, they all hung out with each other), at one point they did turn around and just like that realize that they had fallen in love.

 

So yes, it was very much like that.

 

We both agree that CHOOSING to go out w/o the spouse or friends, CHOOSING to drink past the point of a buzz and CHOOSING to engage in sex with a guy you just met...is an odd exception.

 

In my world its a series of bad decisions

 

I'm not saying that it's a series of great decisions, by any stretch of the imagination - but what I'm saying is that by the time the decision is made between "does one cheat or not cheat" the person is already impaired.

 

By the way, most people that I know who have had ONS DID go out with friends.

[jwi71]

The WS in both cases DID share the depth of the R with the BS. In fact, they all hung out together, they talked about what they talked about etc. What happened was that the WS developed feelings for the OM, and then was at a crossroads.

 

When I say that they didn't act on it, I meant that they didn't conduct an affair in secret.

 

Then it WASNT an EA. Affairs by definition REQUIRE secrecy (and the associated lies). What you saw was a friend whose SO ALLOWED him/her to fall for another in plain sight. Not an A.

 

But according to what you said earlier, the very act of realizing that one has feelings, genuine feelings, for someone else means they intended to cheat. And I disagree.

 

I NEVER sad that. DO quote me.

 

What I DID SAY was at some point, all cheaters INTEND to cheat. I HAVE NEVER spoke as to WHEN that decision was made for it is unique for all. At some point, a cheater INTENDS and CHOOSES an A. No escaping it.

[Tired03]

And when feelings begin...feelings NOT felt with others...a line has been crossed.

 

Thar ya go.

[jwi71]

Because these people were friends first, they already had a bond - a close one. And though the H's knew all about it - knew about the friendship and the nature, knew that they hung out (in fact, they all hung out with each other), at one point they did turn around and just like that realize that they had fallen in love.

 

So yes, it was very much like that.

 

Then I contend that it wasn't "BAM"...suddenly there were feelings. The feelings were there under the guise of friendship...much like OWL was saying. And those bonds had been forming for quite some time and ultimately came to a head. In the open as you say. So how was that an EA? Sounds like they simply dumped their SO's and pursued love. IN the open. Hows that an EA?

 

And we degenerate into semantics.

 

I hold an EA is an improper R (with all those feelings that take time to develop - hence the choices and intent) which is HIDDEN from the spouse or bf/gf.

 

Should those actions be carried out in the open...how is it an A? In my world, it isn't because the WS was perfecty open and honest at all times about the new person and their feelings for one another. And since that is what happened...it isnt an EA

 

I'm not saying that it's a series of great decisions, by any stretch of the imagination - but what I'm saying is that by the time the decision is made between "does one cheat or not cheat" the person is already impaired.

 

Hahaha. That was funny. "When its time to decide to cheat or not I'm already drunk!" That response gives me something to look forward to after my D is final...at least the bar scene hasn't changed!

 

By the way, most people that I know who have had ONS DID go out with friends.

 

I remember those days...silly me, it was MY INTENT to get laid. Hers too.

Go figure.

[Tired03]

I hold an EA is an improper R (with all those feelings that take time to develop - hence the choices and intent) which is HIDDEN from the spouse or bf/gf.

 

This is what I've been trying to ferret out Thank you. It's what I needed to know, because I've been muddling through what everyone says and I've heard "yes" it's the secrecy and "no" it's not the secrecy and so on.

 

Hahaha. That was funny. "When its time to decide to cheat or not I'm already drunk!" That response gives me something to look forward to after my D is final...at least the bar scene hasn't changed!

 

I remember those days...silly me, it was MY INTENT to get laid. Hers too.

Go figure.

 

Wow, that's interesting. Maybe I just hang with totally different people, but we all went out to have a good time as friends, or to listen to bands etc. Sex wasn't even on the radar, unless you were single. *shrug*

[reservoirdog1]

Actually, I think the intent issue is very interesting in the context of infidelity.

 

In law, there's a concept called "constructive intent". An illustrative analogy is this: a guy throws a grenade into a crowded room. He can honestly, legitimately, in his heart of hearts be hoping and praying that nobody gets hurt or killed. But when the grenade goes off and people ARE hurt and killed, pretty much any court will conclude that the result was something he "constructively" intended. That's because, regardless of his intentions or heartfelt, fervent beliefs, it was objectively foreseeable as certain that people WOULD be hurt or killed by his actions. Simply claiming that he did a bad, stupid and/or dangerous thing but really hoped nobody got hurt, doesn't count for anything if the hurtful outcome was pretty much a foregone conclusion.

 

To me, it's the same with infidelity. "I didn't mean to hurt you" means little or nothing. Sure, the betrayer probably wasn't thinking before or during the cheating, "ha ha, I'm breaking my spouse's heart today." Being swept up in massive selfishness, most probably weren't thinking about their spouses at all. But pretty much any outside observer would agree that the spouse WOULD be hurt by what the betrayer was doing. So the lack of intent to hurt your spouse is, in these cases, irrelevant.

 

At least, that's my $0.02...

[Snowflower]

I disagree.

 

I have never heard of anyone just accidentally having sex with another. It takes time, planning and of course desire by BOTH.

 

Sorry, but it was a well thought out and orchestrated courting of another which ended the way BOTH INTENDED and PLANNED...having sex with each other.

 

How does it "just happen"?

 

 

As it was mentioned in the subsequent post by tired03 (she beat me to posting a response--I couldn't get back here to respond for a few) what about a ONS--where everyone was blitzed?

 

I have read about several posts on the "cheating, flirting, jealousy" forum and even some here in "infidelity" where this very thing happened.

 

And sadly, it happened to my H. He was drunk, she was drunk, they inadvertently ended up alone...it was not premeditated, it happened. As WRONG as it was. As much as this has hurt me I can sort of understand how something like this happened and when it happens to others. I remember doing some very stupid things when I have been drunk...not cheating on my H in any way but stuff that when I woke up the next day I thought, "oh geez, did I really do that?"

 

Point is, we all know alcohol makes you do dumb stuff that you would normally never do. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior when they're drunk and I certainly don't excuse what my H did but the alcohol does change the situation.

 

And to come back to the original question on this thread...NO, my H didn't intend to cheat on me that night. It happened because of alcohol, stuff with him, stuff with our M. It still hurts like h**** but it is a little easier to accept than if it had been something like he told me he was going on a fishing trip for the weekend and instead had booked a hotel room for him and this person. That would have been premeditated, thought out beforehand, etc.

 

See the difference? I'm only speaking for me and my situation but while the final result is deep hurt for me because of my H's actions...it isn't the same devastation I would have felt had he intentionally planned to go have sex with someone else.

[angie2443]

Tired03, I'm curious about something. You say you've never been cheated on and have not cheated on anyone, yet you seem to be very defensive of people who've had EA's (or developed feelings for someone else while in a relationship). I'm just wondering why. I know the stories of most of the posters here and it's easy to see where they're are comming from. I'm wondering if you've been accused of an EA, or are you trying to defend a friend of yours who's been accused? Just curious:).

[Tired03]

I have been cheated on - I said that earlier.

 

I'm not defensive, but I am confused about the lines - and because my friends went through it, I'm confused by how their experiences don't jive with what is said here - very often.

 

Told ya, I'm overly-analytical

[angie2443]

As it was mentioned in the subsequent post by tired03 (she beat me to posting a response--I couldn't get back here to respond for a few) what about a ONS--where everyone was blitzed?

 

I have read about several posts on the "cheating, flirting, jealousy" forum and even some here in "infidelity" where this very thing happened.

 

And sadly, it happened to my H. He was drunk, she was drunk, they inadvertently ended up alone...it was not premeditated, it happened. As WRONG as it was. As much as this has hurt me I can sort of understand how something like this happened and when it happens to others. I remember doing some very stupid things when I have been drunk...not cheating on my H in any way but stuff that when I woke up the next day I thought, "oh geez, did I really do that?"

 

Point is, we all know alcohol makes you do dumb stuff that you would normally never do. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior when they're drunk and I certainly don't excuse what my H did but the alcohol does change the situation.

 

And to come back to the original question on this thread...NO, my H didn't intend to cheat on me that night. It happened because of alcohol, stuff with him, stuff with our M. It still hurts like h**** but it is a little easier to accept than if it had been something like he told me he was going on a fishing trip for the weekend and instead had booked a hotel room for him and this person. That would have been premeditated, thought out beforehand, etc.

 

See the difference? I'm only speaking for me and my situation but while the final result is deep hurt for me because of my H's actions...it isn't the same devastation I would have felt had he intentionally planned to go have sex with someone else.

 

I'm wondering if the idea of lack of intent makes it easiar for the wronged party to deal with what happened to them. There were times when I wanted to see my husband as innocent. It hurts more when I think "he did what he did knowing it would hurt me". It's scary for me to think that the person I chose to be with and who I counted on to be there for me, could disregard my feelings so much. Still, he's an adult and I do hold him accountable for his actions. He knew what he was doing and knew what the consequences would be.

[angie2443]

I have been cheated on - I said that earlier.

 

 

So Sorry! I misread the post:o.

[jwi71]

Thar ya go.

 

I'll try again and I hope its clear.

 

Do people CHOOSE to have an A out of the blue. Not likely.

I wager most A's, like OWL said are with friends or co-workers.

And this is because feelings take time to develop as opposed to BAM, you're in love out of the blue.

 

So we make a CHOICE to learn more of the other and share of ourselves. Is it our INTENT to cheat...not yet. The intent is honorable - to learn more to be social, to make a friend (which requires giving). Over time, a line gets crossed. The line between friends an EA. The sharing becomes more personal. Things that I contend should NOT be shared get shared. A choice. And the intent is to deepen feelings. Feelings the spouse would NOT approve of - so it is lied about and THAT is the beginning of the A. It is omitted you had lunch again with John Doe again. Just you two again. That you told him how handsome he looked. More choices. But the intent is to deepen feelings for another and have him deepen feelings for you. The INTENT to cheat. The CHOICE to cheat.

 

And then, parroting cheaters everywhere...you are suddenly in love. Except that isn't the case. It was chosen and at some point the INTENT. The feelings were chosen and intended. Its slow, gradual and insidious.

 

Get it?

[Tired03]

So Sorry! I misread the post:o.

 

Oh no problem - and I'm sure my interest in it seems odd I'm just the type of person that if I don't understand something I'll persist in asking questions/reading until I figure it out - otherwise I'll get no rest.

 

Things that I contend should NOT be shared get shared. A choice.

 

What things are you contending should not be shared? Please understand, I'm genuinely trying to learn

[Snowflower]

I'm wondering if the idea of lack of intent makes it easiar for the wronged party to deal with what happened to them. There were times when I wanted to see my husband as innocent. It hurts more when I think "he did what he did knowing it would hurt me". It's scary for me to think that the person I chose to be with and who I counted on to be there for me, could disregard my feelings so much. Still, he's an adult and I do hold him accountable for his actions. He knew what he was doing and knew what the consequences would be.

 

Oh yeah, I've thought the same thing myself. Am I trying to justify what he did somehow?

 

It's a fine distinction and not one everybody can/will make. But I do make the distinction. And while it is seriously still a bad situation there is a difference, at least to me.

 

Yes, at some moment my H knew that what he was doing was going to hurt me. But, as we know alcohol seriously impairs judgment ability. So whatever thoughts of, "oh crap, what am I doing to her" were probably pretty short lived. There is more information here with what was going on that I will not go into here. BUT, at least for me a stupid, drunken act is very different than deliberate planning to conduct and continue an affair (EA, PA or both) for any length of time.

 

Back to intent, it is why I have such a problem when people say "it was only an EA-no sex was involved." An EA-once it has been established-is definitely intentional. We can debate how/when an EA starts-as evidenced by the posts in this thread.

[jwi71]

As it was mentioned in the subsequent post by tired03 (she beat me to posting a response--I couldn't get back here to respond for a few) what about a ONS--where everyone was blitzed?

 

I have read about several posts on the "cheating, flirting, jealousy" forum and even some here in "infidelity" where this very thing happened.

 

And sadly, it happened to my H. He was drunk, she was drunk, they inadvertently ended up alone...it was not premeditated, it happened. As WRONG as it was. As much as this has hurt me I can sort of understand how something like this happened and when it happens to others. I remember doing some very stupid things when I have been drunk...not cheating on my H in any way but stuff that when I woke up the next day I thought, "oh geez, did I really do that?"

 

Point is, we all know alcohol makes you do dumb stuff that you would normally never do. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior when they're drunk and I certainly don't excuse what my H did but the alcohol does change the situation.

 

And to come back to the original question on this thread...NO, my H didn't intend to cheat on me that night. It happened because of alcohol, stuff with him, stuff with our M. It still hurts like h**** but it is a little easier to accept than if it had been something like he told me he was going on a fishing trip for the weekend and instead had booked a hotel room for him and this person. That would have been premeditated, thought out beforehand, etc.

 

See the difference? I'm only speaking for me and my situation but while the final result is deep hurt for me because of my H's actions...it isn't the same devastation I would have felt had he intentionally planned to go have sex with someone else.

 

Oh I understand.

I get it.

I wish I had the same comfort you have with that. I actually agree with you...the question I would have is why go to a bar and drink heavily - given there deserved reputation.

[stuckinoz]

I'll try again and I hope its clear.

 

Do people CHOOSE to have an A out of the blue. Not likely.

I wager most A's, like OWL said are with friends or co-workers.

And this is because feelings take time to develop as opposed to BAM, you're in love out of the blue.

 

So we make a CHOICE to learn more of the other and share of ourselves. Is it our INTENT to cheat...not yet. The intent is honorable - to learn more to be social, to make a friend (which requires giving). Over time, a line gets crossed. The line between friends an EA. The sharing becomes more personal. Things that I contend should NOT be shared get shared. A choice. And the intent is to deepen feelings. Feelings the spouse would NOT approve of - so it is lied about and THAT is the beginning of the A. It is omitted you had lunch again with John Doe again. Just you two again. That you told him how handsome he looked. More choices. But the intent is to deepen feelings for another and have him deepen feelings for you. The INTENT to cheat. The CHOICE to cheat.

 

And then, parroting cheaters everywhere...you are suddenly in love. Except that isn't the case. It was chosen and at some point the INTENT. The feelings were chosen and intended. Its slow, gradual and insidious.

 

Get it?

 

This post got a lil' out of control.......

I agree with what's here...........The intent to cheat & the choice to cheat........Not necessarily the intent to hurt though. Because as we all know.........EVERYONE involved in an affair gets hurt. The husband, the wife, the other husband, the other wife.....But you don't start out like the mad scientist wringing your hands & chanting...Who can I hurt today...Oh maybe my husband....Let's hurt him.

I think you get so caught up in what's happening - hurting ANYONE isn't even a thought at the time.

Does that make sense?

[Snowflower]

Oh I understand.

I get it.

I wish I had the same comfort you have with that. I actually agree with you...the question I would have is why go to a bar and drink heavily - given there deserved reputation.

 

Thanks, jwi71, I didn't realize until your last few posts that you were also on my same side of the fence, a BS.

 

Actually, after my H confessed and we began working on things...he mentioned that he had absolutely no desire to go to bars anymore after what happened. He was never a big drinker, surprising if you knew his family but he enjoyed a little partying now and then. One of my parameters if I was going to work toward forgiving him was no partying. He readily agreed to this. I was/am so glad he was willing.

 

I try to keep up with everyone's stories here, but I guess I miss a few.

[jwi71]

This post got a lil' out of control.......

I agree with what's here...........The intent to cheat & the choice to cheat........Not necessarily the intent to hurt though. Because as we all know.........EVERYONE involved in an affair gets hurt. The husband, the wife, the other husband, the other wife.....But you don't start out like the mad scientist wringing your hands & chanting...Who can I hurt today...Oh maybe my husband....Let's hurt him.

I think you get so caught up in what's happening - hurting ANYONE isn't even a thought at the time.

Does that make sense?

 

Ah...I haven't spoken on the INTENT to HURT. Only the choices and the intention to cheat - and my own take on their interplay.

 

And to say that people cheat with an intent to hurt the BS has ONE HUGE PROBLEM.

 

THE WS keeps the A secret. How does it cause the pain a WS is seeking if the WS fails to tell the BS? How does a BS hurt if they BS is unaware?

 

See my point?

[Owl]

Actually, I think the intent issue is very interesting in the context of infidelity.

 

In law, there's a concept called "constructive intent". An illustrative analogy is this: a guy throws a grenade into a crowded room. He can honestly, legitimately, in his heart of hearts be hoping and praying that nobody gets hurt or killed. But when the grenade goes off and people ARE hurt and killed, pretty much any court will conclude that the result was something he "constructively" intended. That's because, regardless of his intentions or heartfelt, fervent beliefs, it was objectively foreseeable as certain that people WOULD be hurt or killed by his actions. Simply claiming that he did a bad, stupid and/or dangerous thing but really hoped nobody got hurt, doesn't count for anything if the hurtful outcome was pretty much a foregone conclusion.

 

To me, it's the same with infidelity. "I didn't mean to hurt you" means little or nothing. Sure, the betrayer probably wasn't thinking before or during the cheating, "ha ha, I'm breaking my spouse's heart today." Being swept up in massive selfishness, most probably weren't thinking about their spouses at all. But pretty much any outside observer would agree that the spouse WOULD be hurt by what the betrayer was doing. So the lack of intent to hurt your spouse is, in these cases, irrelevant.

 

At least, that's my $0.02...

 

I agree with this completely. This is exactly my viewpoint on this as well.

[jwi71]

Thanks, jwi71, I didn't realize until your last few posts that you were also on my same side of the fence, a BS.

 

Actually, after my H confessed and we began working on things...he mentioned that he had absolutely no desire to go to bars anymore after what happened. He was never a big drinker, surprising if you knew his family but he enjoyed a little partying now and then. One of my parameters if I was going to work toward forgiving him was no partying. He readily agreed to this. I was/am so glad he was willing.

 

I try to keep up with everyone's stories here, but I guess I miss a few.

 

That's great! Not only did he put himself in a dumb position...he confessed.

No matter what flaws he possesses - he confessed. Yeah, your H is a keeper in MY view.