bentnotbroken Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 So an EA--which is all pretty much in the head--feelings, longings, etc. for someone who is not your spouse and no physical boundaries are crossed--isn't intentional? I'm surprised you would say this, owl...based on what you have posted here before! Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. An EA isn't just in the head. If a person is in contact with the affair partner, sharing things with them of a personal nature, and is hiding the relationship, what is said and time spent with the AP over the phone, net and text, boundaries of marriage have been crossed.
angie2443 Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 So an EA--which is all pretty much in the head--feelings, longings, etc. for someone who is not your spouse and no physical boundaries are crossed--isn't intentional? I'm surprised you would say this, owl...based on what you have posted here before! Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. I disagree about the EA bieng "all in the head", although I think I know why you're thinking this. An EA is shared between two people. Words are shared, often hugs are exchanged and their is the emotional connection that is not just in one person's head but between the two people involved in the EA.
Author Tired03 Posted April 17, 2009 Author Posted April 17, 2009 I disagree about the EA bieng "all in the head", although I think I know why you're thinking this. An EA is shared between two people. Words are shared, often hugs are exchanged and their is the emotional connection that is not just in one person's head but between the two people involved in the EA. This is one that I struggle with (conceptually) because I have a female friend that I do all of the above with - we're connected and very close, yet I don't believe it to be an EA (I'm female btw, and not gay). I have a male friend that I do all of the above with as well, but there are no feelings of love there, we're just close friends - he's like my brother (well, closer than my brother - my brother and I are not close at all) - is the difference gender?
angie2443 Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 This is one that I struggle with (conceptually) because I have a female friend that I do all of the above with - we're connected and very close, yet I don't believe it to be an EA (I'm female btw, and not gay). I have a male friend that I do all of the above with as well, but there are no feelings of love there, we're just close friends - he's like my brother (well, closer than my brother - my brother and I are not close at all) - is the difference gender? I've learned from my situation that there are certain things that are only between me and my husband. I do not share these things with my friends (doesn't matter what gender) my siblings or my other relatives. If my husband and I are having troubles, I work on it with my husband. It is only between us that the problem can be resolved. I don't tell other people the details of our intimant life and I don't give away information about my husband that I know he wants kept private. If something important is going on with me, my husband is the first to know and the one who I will talk about with it most. I'm not saying that I don't talk to other people at all, just that my husband is first in line when I have something of importance to tell. When I first was married, I didn't understand any of this. When I had problems with my husband, I told the world. It was easiar than working through them with him. He did the same. I stopped when I realized that he was supposed to be the most important person to me (next to my kids) and I was doing harm by venting about him to others. I'm getting wordy, so I'll stop. I hope this makes sense.
Owl Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 An EA is a LOT more than just "in the head". An INFATUATION with someone can just be "in the head". But an EA is the resulting of ACTING on that infatuaion. It occurs when you begin investing time/energy/effort/emotion into that infatuation. An EA is what you get when you FEED that infatuation. Feeding it implies that you're doing something ACTIVE to maintain it...to pursue it...to enable it. And yes...that means INTENT. Tired, here's where you're getting confused. First off, you're not emotionally/sexually oriented to consider your female friend in "that way"...so your risk of this becoming an infatuation, or it becoming an EA is relatively low. That does NOT mean that you could well be investing too much into that relationship at the detriment of your marriage...it's entirely possible...and you've not posted enough information about it for me to guess one way or another. With your male friend...you're engaging in risky behavior. Because your close friendship, with loose boundaries...it can easily blossom into something more if the situation changes. And here's a thought for you...you might well consider him "like your brother". But I'd pretty much GARAUNTEE that he doesn't share that same assessment, deep down. He may or may not ADMIT whether or not he feels more for you...but I'd unless you're a sasquatch, I'd bet that there is some sexual attraction element to HIS side of the relationship that he's decided to ignore/not pursue for whatever reason. Close opposite sex friends OFTEN become affair partners. Especially when there are no boundaries, or ones that are poorly enforced. A common way for these to start is when you begin sharing deeply emotional communication with each other...especially about your marriage/relationships/spouse...or hopesdreams/fantasies/etc... It may not be an emotional affair YET...but it could well escalate into one if something causes a change in the situation.
Author Tired03 Posted April 17, 2009 Author Posted April 17, 2009 It does make sense - I see where you are coming from (I think). Are we specifically talking about marital complaints? Is that the "intimate" discussion that we're talking about? Or discussions about sexuality?
Author Tired03 Posted April 17, 2009 Author Posted April 17, 2009 With your male friend...you're engaging in risky behavior. Because your close friendship, with loose boundaries...it can easily blossom into something more if the situation changes. And here's a thought for you...you might well consider him "like your brother". But I'd pretty much GARAUNTEE that he doesn't share that same assessment, deep down. He may or may not ADMIT whether or not he feels more for you...but I'd unless you're a sasquatch, I'd bet that there is some sexual attraction element to HIS side of the relationship that he's decided to ignore/not pursue for whatever reason. Owl, I have to admit, this made me chuckle today, thank you I'm pretty sure I'm not a sasquatch. But the thought made me laugh. So you subscribe to the "men can't be friends with women without wanting to bang them" theory?
angie2443 Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 This is one that I struggle with (conceptually) because I have a female friend that I do all of the above with - we're connected and very close, yet I don't believe it to be an EA (I'm female btw, and not gay). I have a male friend that I do all of the above with as well, but there are no feelings of love there, we're just close friends - he's like my brother (well, closer than my brother - my brother and I are not close at all) - is the difference gender? I wanted to respond to the gender issue but got off track in my other post. I think gender can matter in the sense that a friendship is likely to become emotionally closer if there is a little sexual attraction at least. When I say emotionally closer, I'm thinking of the kind of closeness that can take away from the marriage/long term relationship. However, I think if you are able to share more with your same sex friends than your husband, then it means you may be loosing closeness to your husband and possibly have a problem in your marriage that you need to fix. A friendship with a person with whom you have no sexual attraction to, can be harmful to a marriage, it just depends on the nature of the friendship.
Reggie Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 I don't feel there is any question that all affairs are intentional, Clearly, they require a concious decision tocross a line. This question, on intent, however, is not focused on the intent to have the affair, but rather the subjective mindset of the cheater re the desire to hurt. This is where i think the reckless disregard analysis comes in. I expect most cheaters feel that they did not desire to hurt their BS. However, the reckless disregard thing is usually analyzed in legal matters as evidence of a malignent heart, or some phrase like that which i cannot recall exactly. Unless someone is impaired, it is hard to imagine a lack of conciousness that cheating has a very great potential for inflicting enormous damage to the victim. Yet, the cheater makes a concious decision to go forward, knowing this. This shows that the cheater had little , if any , concern for the effects of his/her actions on the victim. It shows a lack of empathy and a willingness to hurt someone in order to achieve his or her goals. Very callous and evil. IMO.
Author Tired03 Posted April 17, 2009 Author Posted April 17, 2009 I think gender can matter in the sense that a friendship is likely to become emotionally closer if there is a little sexual attraction at least. When I say emotionally closer, I'm thinking of the kind of closeness that can take away from the marriage/long term relationship. However, I think if you are able to share more with your same sex friends than your husband, then it means you may be loosing closeness to your husband and possibly have a problem in your marriage that you need to fix. A friendship with a person with whom you have no sexual attraction to, can be harmful to a marriage, it just depends on the nature of the friendship. I guess I don't know what kind of closeness it is that "takes away" from the marriage/long term relationship. And my situation/marriage might be quite unique, so bear with me please as I muddle through all of this. My husband works long days, often not getting home until 9-10 at night, and travels quite often as well. We talk, IM and chat, but I'm alone most of the time (well, with the kiddos). So, do I have friends that detract from the marriage? No, not necessarily - I don't talk to them about things (with the exception of things that would be of no interest to my husband) that I *wouldn't* talk to my husband about, but sure, we discuss things that I *don't have time* to discuss with my husband - but that's not an unwillingness so much as - only so much one can fit in an hour's worth of conversation
angie2443 Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 It does make sense - I see where you are coming from (I think). Are we specifically talking about marital complaints? Is that the "intimate" discussion that we're talking about? Or discussions about sexuality? I was talking about both in the post. I don't give away details of our sex life to other people. I do talk about sex with friends at times, but I keep our private life private. I also don't tell people about any fights we get into. I resolve those with my husband.
Author Tired03 Posted April 17, 2009 Author Posted April 17, 2009 I was talking about both in the post. I don't give away details of our sex life to other people. I do talk about sex with friends at times, but I keep our private life private. I also don't tell people about any fights we get into. I resolve those with my husband. Gotcha, I don't talk about details of our sex life with other people - but then again, that's just not something I talk about in general very often. I have one good close female friend that I do talk about the fights we get into, but it's not a blow by blow, be on my side kind of discussion - it's more along the lines of explaining things because she is concerned because of our past history. We don't talk about every fight, just discussions. Stays very academic. I suppose I have talked about that with my male friend as well, but still on a very academic level.
angie2443 Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 I guess I don't know what kind of closeness it is that "takes away" from the marriage/long term relationship. And my situation/marriage might be quite unique, so bear with me please as I muddle through all of this. My husband works long days, often not getting home until 9-10 at night, and travels quite often as well. We talk, IM and chat, but I'm alone most of the time (well, with the kiddos). So, do I have friends that detract from the marriage? No, not necessarily - I don't talk to them about things (with the exception of things that would be of no interest to my husband) that I *wouldn't* talk to my husband about, but sure, we discuss things that I *don't have time* to discuss with my husband - but that's not an unwillingness so much as - only so much one can fit in an hour's worth of conversation I'm thinking in your case, it's not the friendships that might cause you problems, but the fact that your not with your husband much. Relationships need a certain amount of time and attention to thrive. Sometimes when we stop giving that time and attention to our relationships, the relationship dies and a friendship starts filling the hole where the relationship once was. You see that all the time on these boards. By the way, I'm not commenting specifically on your situation, as I don't know much of your situation. I'm just talking about relationships in general.
Author Tired03 Posted April 17, 2009 Author Posted April 17, 2009 Don't worry angie - I'm not taking any offense at what you say (I take offense at very little ) Do our schedules make our marriage difficult? Yup. Absolutely - I concur with that. I'm hoping that it's a temporary situation through this period in my husband's career, and I took a less demanding timewise job in order to accommodate it as well as fix that particular issue.
jwi71 Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 I'll jump in...my first post was on the assumption that the OP had a different agenda. Clearly that is NOT the case. Apologies for the assumption. Tired03, when do A's happen that were UNINTENDED? At some point it is the cheater's intent to deceive and betray. Period. Its really that simple. Many cheaters simply HATE hearing that. No one like to see that side of themselves but there it is...and there is NO way around it. ALL A's are intentional. Every last one of them. I find that to be a simple question and argument. Lots of interesting Q's...I just don't think intent is one of them. Motive? Far more interesting...
angie2443 Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 I have one good close female friend that I do talk about the fights we get into, but it's not a blow by blow, be on my side kind of discussion - it's more along the lines of explaining things because she is concerned because of our past history. We don't talk about every fight, just discussions. Stays very academic. . I re-read your post where you mention the abuse. I know I sound like I have a lot of rules regarding relationships, but I do make exceptions and abuse is one of them. My husband became abusive, mostly verbal, early in our marriage. I know how bad that can get and I believe that if anything that serious is going then you have to tell someone. This is actually one of the things that led us into MC. It is good that you have someone looking out for you.
Author Tired03 Posted April 17, 2009 Author Posted April 17, 2009 Tired03, when do A's happen that were UNINTENDED? At some point it is the cheater's intent to deceive and betray. Period. Its really that simple. Many cheaters simply HATE hearing that. No one like to see that side of themselves but there it is...and there is NO way around it. ALL A's are intentional. Every last one of them. I guess I have seen it with friends of mine in the past, and Owl has alluded to it with his statement about risk - they didn't realize that they had feelings for someone until it was at the point when they were already in an emotional affair (at which point, a variety of things happened - some stayed, some confessed, some broke up etc). See, at that point I'm hard pressed to say "they made a choice to get there" - because the dangers of emotional affairs and the warning signs have only recently gotten press - despite how much we talk about it on LS. This is what I'm struggling with Because I don't believe them to be bad people, nor do I believe that they intentionally strayed outside the marriage, nor even knew that the path that they were on would take them there.
Snowflower Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 An EA is a LOT more than just "in the head". An INFATUATION with someone can just be "in the head". But an EA is the resulting of ACTING on that infatuaion. It occurs when you begin investing time/energy/effort/emotion into that infatuation. An EA is what you get when you FEED that infatuation. Feeding it implies that you're doing something ACTIVE to maintain it...to pursue it...to enable it. And yes...that means INTENT. But wouldn't you agree that the INFATUATION that is "all in the head" is the beginning of the EA and therefore the intent is to begin some kind of an affair? Let's say someone is married and they are attracted to another person, be it a co-worker, neighbor whatever. Sure, it is harmless enough at first--in fact the person just keeps it to themselves--a little fantasy. Then all the sudden, the object of their fantasy suddenly reciprocates the attraction. Now there is mutual attraction and danger...nothing overtly may have taken place (hugging, boundary-crossing conversations, etc) but something "illicit" is there. Nothing may have even been mentioned by either the soon to be WS or the OP. Most people know when someone of the opposite sex is "interested" in them. It may still be in both their heads--but intent is there at least to be interested in each other--no matter HOW they act (or don't act) on it. BTW, I'm not trying to argue with you owl because I agree with about 90% of your thoughtful, well-written posts. You are definitely a BS who has BTDT. I'm just sayng that the line in the sand is very blurry and "intent" to enter into an affair can differ from situation to situation and person to person.
Author Tired03 Posted April 17, 2009 Author Posted April 17, 2009 I re-read your post where you mention the abuse. I know I sound like I have a lot of rules regarding relationships, but I do make exceptions and abuse is one of them. My husband became abusive, mostly verbal, early in our marriage. I know how bad that can get and I believe that if anything that serious is going then you have to tell someone. This is actually one of the things that led us into MC. It is good that you have someone looking out for you. Yes, and I too believe that talking about those things was very useful because I didn't recognize it as abuse until I talked through it. I'll jump in...my first post was on the assumption that the OP had a different agenda. Clearly that is NOT the case. Apologies for the assumption. I missed this one when I answered your question - thanks for the apologies I wasn't being very articulate this morning, and I can certainly understand the confusion
Snowflower Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 See, at that point I'm hard pressed to say "they made a choice to get there" - because the dangers of emotional affairs and the warning signs have only recently gotten press - despite how much we talk about it on LS. This is what I'm struggling with Because I don't believe them to be bad people, nor do I believe that they intentionally strayed outside the marriage, nor even knew that the path that they were on would take them there. I agree...before my husband's A, and I began reading up on affairs, the term "EA" was something I had heard on only on Oprah once or twice. I only had the vaguest idea as to what it was. I think most people don't know and for men it is even less likely that they would know much about the slippery slope of affairs. I highly doubt any soon to be WS goes out and researches how affairs happen the minute they find themselves attracted to someone other than their spouse. If they did, there would probably be a lot fewer infidelities because after all, "knowledge is power." Sadly though, things do "just happen" that result in affairs.
Mr. Lucky Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 Okay, so what if there is no gaslighting? Say it's purely an emotional affair, and it ends early enough that the only lie to the spouse is a lie of omission. Lies of omission don't exist in a vacuum as the information is omitted for a reason. A cheating spouse can simply fail to account for their time (omission) or tell the BS that they were doing something else instead (comission). Is one less damaging than the other? Mr. Lucky
Author Tired03 Posted April 17, 2009 Author Posted April 17, 2009 You account for every second of your time? I suppose one could say that I have "lied by omission" for not telling my husband that I went to lunch with my female friend (during work hours). But, at the same time - I just didn't tell him because it didn't come up - we generally don't talk about what happens during every second of our days. Please understand, I'm just trying to understand this - I'm fairly analytical (and prone to overanalysis ) hence the questions.
angie2443 Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 You account for every second of your time? I suppose one could say that I have "lied by omission" for not telling my husband that I went to lunch with my female friend (during work hours). But, at the same time - I just didn't tell him because it didn't come up - we generally don't talk about what happens during every second of our days. Please understand, I'm just trying to understand this - I'm fairly analytical (and prone to overanalysis ) hence the questions. I think you might be overanalysing here. Certainly you shouldn't have to account for every second of your time to your spouse. The lies of ommition occur when you are deliberately keeping something from your spouse. When you've had a lunch with your friend, but you keep it from your husband because you know it might cause trouble would be a lie of ommision. If the lunch is something you know would not bother your husband and you simply forgot or didn't have a reason to mention it, it would be no big deal.
jwi71 Posted April 17, 2009 Posted April 17, 2009 See, at that point I'm hard pressed to say "they made a choice to get there" - because the dangers of emotional affairs and the warning signs have only recently gotten press - despite how much we talk about it on LS. Of course they made a choice. They CHOOSE to speak to the OM and not the H. They CHOOSE to share information with the OM that they would NOT share with others. They CHOOSE to lie about the nature of "their friend". And it isn't long before the H becomes a burden and impediment...coming between her and the OM. And when feelings begin...feelings NOT felt with others...a line has been crossed. And the cheaters know it. And they lie to themselves and their H. Sorry...EA's are a choice. This is what I'm struggling with Because I don't believe them to be bad people, nor do I believe that they intentionally strayed outside the marriage, nor even knew that the path that they were on would take them there. Yikes! At SOME point, they CHOOSE to lie to their spouses in order to be with another. Very much a deliberate and premeditated act - unless you are prepared to say they accidentally lied to their spouse - perhaps over an extended period of time.
Author Tired03 Posted April 17, 2009 Author Posted April 17, 2009 They CHOOSE to speak to the OM and not the H. They CHOOSE to share information with the OM that they would NOT share with others. They CHOOSE to lie about the nature of "their friend". And it isn't long before the H becomes a burden and impediment...coming between her and the OM. And when feelings begin...feelings NOT felt with others...a line has been crossed. And the cheaters know it. And they lie to themselves and their H. Well, now hang on - in the cases that I'm talking about, the H's knew about the OM, knew that they hung out, and they didn't share information with the OM that they would NOT share with others (as you've put it). So, those things weren't there - they didn't act on the potential, but did develop feelings for the OM, which is when they either recommitted to their marriages, or left their marriages, before anything happened.
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