On "Intent"

[taylor]

I would never drink and drive because of the possible consequences. My intention would be to get home safe' date=' but [b']how does one do that when they are not in a *safe* state of mind[/b] and they already know that to be the case.

 

How do they get home safe knowing they are not in a safe state of mind?

 

They get home by taking a risk...driving a little slower..taking the back roads. And many do find their way home safely.

 

Is this wise. NO.

Is it legal. NO.

 

But they do it anyways and often don't suffer any consequences because of it, except perhaps a hangover the next day.

 

The thing is they never know for sure if the next time they get behind the wheel if they are going to make it home safely to their bed or kill a family of 4. A lot is left to chance.

 

With an affair, you can pretty much be sure 100 % that the affair will result in a spouse being hurt. You pretty much know that going in. It really isn't up to chance. It's gonna happen.

 

People who enter affairs take a risk of their spouse finding out. But they don't take a risk as to whether they are going to hurt someone. They know full well the affair will lead to hurt feelings.

[Lostchances]

Interesting thread.

 

The following may sound a bit legalistic, but only because it is based on first principles.

 

Judges, lawyers, theologians, ethicists and so on have been thinking about intent since we first climbed out of the trees.

 

The general consensus is:

 

Intent makes not a whit of difference neither with respect to culpability nor to guilt. (You may want to look up the difference)

 

It does not matter why you may do something wrong. If you do it you are responsible for all consequences, intended or surprised or ignored – anything and all things resulting from you actions. If you do it, you hold all results intended and unintended and even totally unthought-of of in your own two hands.

 

Where intent or lack of intent and even plain ignorance pays a role is in sentencing, punishment, reconciliation, earning forgiveness or otherwise cleaning up the mess you made.

 

It’s called mercy. Intent plays its role as justice tempered by mercy.

 

Lack of intent resulting in serious consequances anyway applies in spades to adultery.

[taylor]

You didn't WANT to hurt your husband...but you didn't care enough at the time to stop yourself from doing things that you knew would hurt him. You took action, deliberately, with the express knowledge that it would hurt him.

 

Not only did I not care enough to stop. I didn't think long and hard enough about my husband either. Nor did I think long and hard about any of the consequences of my actions. That is why I said in an earlier post WSs are guilty of being short-sighted. They don't look ahead...down the road...to see what's coming. They are living in the moment with the affair partner...that's all they think about..that's all they care about...every action and thought is geared toward that person and no one else.

 

The BS becomes a very fleeting thought if at all.

 

 

 

Regardless of whether you DESIRED that outcome, you took action knowing what the outcome would be. You intentionally lied to your H, by omission and otherwise I'm sure, to conceal the damage you were doing to him.

 

Yes, I entered an affair and let it escalate. And as time went on it became more and more evident that the affair feelings were not going away, but getting stronger. And knowing as time went on that it was becoming more and more evident the situation was going to hurt my husband.

 

I never hid the affair in order to keep my husband from being hurt. That was not even in my list of reasons why I did not make full disclosure (see above). Like I said, I never really thought that much about whether or not what I was doing was hurting or would hurt my husband. Therefore, it never really crossed my mind to hide the affair so that I wouldn't hurt him.

 

If my husband and I had a happy solid marriage and for some reason I decided to have a ONS, I surely would have wanted to keep that from him so as not to hurt him.

 

But when I had my EA, my husband and I had both gotten quite good at throwing daggers and pitch forks at each other. We were both hurting...both bleeding out...by the time the OM came on the scene.

 

What many BS fail to realize is that many WS have already checked out their marriage..thrown that proverbial towel in..BEFORE the affair starts. Why would they be that concerned or give that much thought about hurting their spouse once the marriage reaches that point.

 

If my marriage had been in a good spot, guilt probably would have prevented the affair from escalating. But I felt no guilt whatsoever when I entered my affair. By that time, my husband and I had piled up enough hurt on each other to fill a football stadium. I found relief from the hurt in the affair.

 

Bottom line...I believe that you never desired to hurt him...but you did intentionally take actions that you knew would hurt him.

 

Yes, I took actions intentionally to escape the hurt and to find solace. And in doing so, feelings escalated. And as those feelings escalated it became increasingly more evident that my actions would indeed hurt my husband.

 

Reservoir Dog's post is similar to mine with regard to the dropping of a bomb. The bomber's intent is to incapacitate warfare ability, but he does so knowing he is going to kill or maim 1,000s of innocents.

 

According to the logic of many here, it was the bomber's intent to kill 1,000s of people when he dropped the bomb..actually, to murder them, because the action was deliberate and planned.

 

And then a leader can come on national TV and say he didn't want to murder 1000s of innocents...but that would be meaningless. He KNEW he wanted to murder them. He chose to murder them. It was his intent to murder them. It's a cop-out,an inability of his to be able to accept responsibility, if he tries to say he didn't mean to murder those people. The whys don't matter.

 

I say you need to think one step further...the intent was to incapacitate warfare ability, but an undesireable consequence of that action is the murder of 1000s of innocents. This doesn't remove the "wrong" or the "responsibility" or the "guilt", or the end result, but it puts it in a more realistic perspective, more closely aligned with the thought that went into the decision making.

[taylor]

Interesting thread.

 

The following may sound a bit legalistic, but only because it is based on first principles.

 

Judges, lawyers, theologians, ethicists and so on have been thinking about intent since we first climbed out of the trees.

 

The general consensus is:

 

Intent makes not a whit of difference neither with respect to culpability nor to guilt. (You may want to look up the difference)

 

It does not matter why you may do something wrong. If you do it you are responsible for all consequences, intended or surprised or ignored – anything and all things resulting from you actions. If you do it, you hold all results intended and unintended and even totally unthought-of of in your own two hands.

 

Where intent or lack of intent and even plain ignorance pays a role is in sentencing, punishment, reconciliation, earning forgiveness or otherwise cleaning up the mess you made.

 

It’s called mercy. Intent plays its role as justice tempered by mercy.

 

Lack of intent resulting in serious consequances anyway applies in spades to adultery.

 

Another wanna-be lawyer.

 

Got a joke for you that a real lawyer told me this past weekend:

 

Did you know the law is not black and white. It's not even gray. It's all green.

 

Actually, he told me it really wasn't a joke at all. It's true, he said.

[taylor]

It does not matter why you may do something wrong.

 

Maybe not, but this is usually the first question a BS asks a WS on D-day..and continues to ask for a long, long time.

 

If it really doesn't matter, as you say, why ask?

[Owl]

Reservoir Dog's post is similar to mine with regard to the dropping of a bomb. The bomber's intent is to incapacitate warfare ability, but he does so knowing he is going to kill or maim 1,000s of innocents.

 

According to the logic of many here, it was the bomber's intent to kill 1,000s of people when he dropped the bomb..actually, to murder them, because the action was deliberate and planned.

 

And then a leader can come on national TV and say he didn't want to murder 1000s of innocents...but that would be meaningless. He KNEW he wanted to murder them. He chose to murder them. It was his intent to murder them. It's a cop-out,an inability of his to be able to accept responsibility, if he tries to say he didn't mean to murder those people. The whys don't matter.

 

I say you need to think one step further...the intent was to incapacitate warfare ability, but an undesireable consequence of that action is the murder of 1000s of innocents. This doesn't remove the "wrong" or the "responsibility" or the "guilt", or the end result, but it puts it in a more realistic perspective, more closely aligned with the thought that went into the decision making.

 

But...at the end of the day...it doesn't matter what you SAY your intent was...you knew that you were killing 1000s of innocent people. Which is why dropping a bomb on 1000 civilian innocents is against the laws of warfare...and punishable by death. You are still guilty of "intentionally" killing 1000s of innocent people. You did it knowingly, even if you didn't "want" to do it.

 

So again...don't confuse intent with desire.

 

In your illustration, the party responsible for dropping the bomb would be found guilty for the intentional murder of all those people.

 

If they were NOT "innocents"...but combatants...that's another story. He'd still be guilty of the intent to kill them...but he wouldn't be guilty of a crime (murder).

[Mr. Lucky]

So when a cheater says "I didn't intend to hurt you", they aren't taking responsibility for every action they took that was actually hurtful and damaging throughout the course of the affair, regardless of whether the BS ever finds out about the affair or not. It's a copout, because "I didn't intend to hurt you" is meaningless - they inflict the hurt and damage regardless of intent every minute they are having a relationship with their affair partner.

I couldn't agree more. Although it is interesting to see some of the gymnastics former WS will go through to avoid facing this simple truth. Regardless of intent, an EA or PA is a theft of energy that might have otherwise gone into your marriage...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Lostchances]

Maybe not, but this is usually the first question a BS asks a WS on D-day..and continues to ask for a long, long time.

 

If it really doesn't matter, as you say, why ask?

 

You are confusing two different things: the ethics and/or moral issues of intent vs culpability and resultant responsibility for unintended (perhaps unthought of) consequences - with specific instances of effects and harm upon a victim.

 

For a specific wrongful action intent is one of the major issues for a victim, either a direct or a collateral victim. Knowing intent is like a pry bar, I suppose, to be used by a BS to immediately D or to leverage a decision to forgive.

 

It's like the sentencing concept. Does the WS even deserve some mercy?

 

If I was a BS I would want to know if it was because of too much to drink one night or if it was because he was angry at me for something and acting out or even more important if it is his very nature.

 

The former, if said WS is not already an alcoholic, may be deemed to deserve some mercy and be worth some lengthy discussions about forgiveness and reconciliation than a WS who does the same thing intentionally wanting to inflict harm directly upon me. I doubt I would reconcile with such a person. Not if I value my own boundaries and wellbeing. The latter WS, however, is, well, the latter is a lost cause. Run away. So it is good for a victim to know why if only for practical reasons.

 

Three things. You are confusing three things. There is also the issue of confusion itself after being harmed. Most BS are at sea for a long time after D-Day. In their confusion they want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's like a life preserver. And not truth that must be extracted with pliers either. Without the truth what can they use as input to decide their future? Shall they use their feelings? Don’t make me laugh. Feelings are why most WS do what they do. Feelings are the biggest liars of all. BS need to stay away from their feelings as best they can. If they don't they risk becoming just another WS. No, BS need accurate data. Truth as to intent is what discriminating BS want and need. This why and intent is part of the data used by BS to decide sentencing.

 

And if the WS can’t even say why, well, they are lying or they will do it again. Or both. Be sure of it.

 

Many things. OK. You confuse many things. Like past promises of care and protection. All part of the why and why not a BS needs before she can decide her own future. But I will stop here.

[taylor]

But...at the end of the day...it doesn't matter what you SAY your intent was...you knew that you were killing 1000s of innocent people. Which is why dropping a bomb on 1000 civilian innocents is against the laws of warfare...and punishable by death. You are still guilty of "intentionally" killing 1000s of innocent people. You did it knowingly, even if you didn't "want" to do it.

 

Didn't we drop an atomic bomb on Japan? Who got put to death for killing tens of thousands of innocents?

 

You know I have a cousin whose daughter got shot and killed in Texas. She was nine and got caught in the crossfire between two gangs bent on shooting each other up. She was on her front porch.

 

The gang members were twice her age. I don't think any of them had any intention of killing a nine year old girl standing on a porch.

 

But according to your definition these gang members intended to kill her. They knew they were putting her at risk by firing at will into another crowd of gang members in the street, also bent on proving some stupid point.

 

Owl, I guess we are just going to have to disagree on the definition of intent. I can't seem to apply this logic to any scenario, whether it be an affair, a gang war, an atom bomb, a drunk driver, a smoker, or my dad skipping town.

 

Last time I knew an affair was not a criminal offense to I am not going to stay on this thread any longer to be tried as if it were. The wanna-be lawyers here will have to argue amongst themselves or find another WS to prosecute.

 

I have said all I care to say on the subject.

[taylor]

You are confusing two different things: the ethics and/or moral issues of intent vs culpability and resultant responsibility for unintended (perhaps unthought of) consequences - with specific instances of effects and harm upon a victim.

 

For a specific wrongful action intent is one of the major issues for a victim, either a direct or a collateral victim. Knowing intent is like a pry bar, I suppose, to be used by a BS to immediately D or to leverage a decision to forgive.

 

It's like the sentencing concept. Does the WS even deserve some mercy?

 

If I was a BS I would want to know if it was because of too much to drink one night or if it was because he was angry at me for something and acting out or even more important if it is his very nature.

 

The former, if said WS is not already an alcoholic, may be deemed to deserve some mercy and be worth some lengthy discussions about forgiveness and reconciliation than a WS who does the same thing intentionally wanting to inflict harm directly upon me. I doubt I would reconcile with such a person. Not if I value my own boundaries and wellbeing. The latter WS, however, is, well, the latter is a lost cause. Run away. So it is good for a victim to know why if only for practical reasons.

 

Three things. You are confusing three things. There is also the issue of confusion itself after being harmed. Most BS are at sea for a long time after D-Day. In their confusion they want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's like a life preserver. And not truth that must be extracted with pliers either. Without the truth what can they use as input to decide their future? Shall they use their feelings? Don’t make me laugh. Feelings are why most WS do what they do. Feelings are the biggest liars of all. BS need to stay away from their feelings as best they can. If they don't they risk becoming just another WS. No, BS need accurate data. Truth as to intent is what discriminating BS want and need. This why and intent is part of the data used by BS to decide sentencing.

 

And if the WS can’t even say why, well, they are lying or they will do it again. Or both. Be sure of it.

 

Many things. OK. You confuse many things. Like past promises of care and protection. All part of the why and why not a BS needs before she can decide her own future. But I will stop here.

 

Lost chances..your the one who said the why didn't matter. You are arguing with yourself.

 

I think it is very important that BS find out why their spouse chose to enter an affair. It is especially important for marital recovery. I know. I am there right now. I know first hand how important it is to get to the root answer of WHY?

 

Now I'm done.

[Snowflower]

OMG, Snowflower, thanks for pointing that out! Doing the happy dance as I write!

 

Just shows you how addicting LS can be. You've been fore-warned

 

LOL, I think I am already addicted! Oh well...

 

Honestly though, taylor. I think you have defended your position well on this thread. Some people just like to argue and I'm not sure what they are wanting you to concede.

 

I guess some posters here would only be happy if your H threw you out your a** for being involved in an EA...after, of course you confessed to what a horrible person you were.

 

Many of the posters here think I am insane for giving my H another chance and actually NOT being a basket case only 5 months after D-Day! I must not know what I am talking about...

 

Sometimes enough is enough...but I do enjoy your posts, taylor. Yes, you are on the opposite of the fence from me but I like your insight!

[taylor]

LOL, I think I am already addicted! Oh well...

 

Honestly though, taylor. I think you have defended your position well on this thread. Some people just like to argue and I'm not sure what they are wanting you to concede.

 

I guess some posters here would only be happy if your H threw you out your a** for being involved in an EA...after, of course you confessed to what a horrible person you were.

 

Many of the posters here think I am insane for giving my H another chance and actually NOT being a basket case only 5 months after D-Day! I must not know what I am talking about...

 

Sometimes enough is enough...but I do enjoy your posts, taylor. Yes, you are on the opposite of the fence from me but I like your insight!

 

Thank you for the kind words, Snowflower.

 

FWIW, I do not think you are insane or wrong for trying to make your marriage work. You still value your marriage. I also still value my marriage.

 

It takes a strong person..a strong couple...to walk the road to recovery. It's hard to do but hopefully will be worth it in the end.

 

I also want to say that I admire you for forgiving your husband the way that you did. That kind of forgiveness is truly a special gift that you gave to your husband. I hope he realizes that. I know I do, with respect to my husband.

 

You sound strong...I take it from that that you and your husband are doing well.

[grogster]

The absence of ill intent is not a "get out of jail free card." Very few cheaters have affairs with the intent of hurting their betrayed spouse. We're thinking about ourselves, our pleasure, our highs, our validation. The BS, in fact, diminishes in importance as the affair eclipses everything the cheater once held dear, and loved. The BS disappears.

 

In some respects, an intent to hurt the BS is better than the spousal diminishment that afflicts most affairs. If I intend to use the affair to hurt my spouse that means that, on some level, she still matters to me. She's real, she still exists in an emotionally tangible way.

 

In most affairs, however, the BS recedes to the background, evaporates, and the affair partner occupies the forground of the cheater's life and narrative. The affair partner becomes more real, more substantial, more tangible than the evanescent BS.

 

In an affair, there's intent--but it's the intent to pleasure your partner, and receive pleasure, not hurt your loved ones. In short, in the heat of an affair, the BS often does not matter enough to the WS to form an intent to harm.

 

The absence of ill intentions means squat. The damage is done.

[bentnotbroken]

The absence of ill intent is not a "get out of jail free card." Very few cheaters have affairs with the intent of hurting their betrayed spouse. We're thinking about ourselves, our pleasure, our highs, our validation. The BS, in fact, diminishes in importance as the affair eclipses everything the cheater once held dear, and loved. The BS disappears.

 

In some respects, an intent to hurt the BS is better than the spousal diminishment that afflicts most affairs. If I intend to use the affair to hurt my spouse that means that, on some level, she still matters to me. She's real, she still exists in an emotionally tangible way.

 

In most affairs, however, the BS recedes to the background, evaporates, and the affair partner occupies the forground of the cheater's life and narrative. The affair partner becomes more real, more substantial, more tangible than the evanescent BS.

 

In an affair, there's intent--but it's the intent to pleasure your partner, and receive pleasure, not hurt your loved ones. In short, in the heat of an affair, the BS often does not matter enough to the WS to form an intent to harm.

 

The absence of ill intentions means squat. The damage is done.

 

Very informative.

[angie2443]

The BS, in fact, diminishes in importance as the affair eclipses everything the cheater once held dear, and loved. The BS disappears.

 

In some respects, an intent to hurt the BS is better than the spousal diminishment that afflicts most affairs. If I intend to use the affair to hurt my spouse that means that, on some level, she still matters to me. She's real, she still exists in an emotionally tangible way.

 

In most affairs, however, the BS recedes to the background, evaporates, and the affair partner occupies the forground of the cheater's life and narrative. The affair partner becomes more real, more substantial, more tangible than the evanescent BS.

 

In an affair, there's intent--but it's the intent to pleasure your partner, and receive pleasure, not hurt your loved ones. In short, in the heat of an affair, the BS often does not matter enough to the WS to form an intent to harm.

.

 

I understand this. This is why it is so hard to be with my husband at times even though things are almost always good. I'm living with someone who had it in him to think so less of me that he could have his EA without a thought as to what it would do to me. It still worries me at times.

[Owl]

Taylor, I'm not putting you on trial by any means.

 

I'm responding using the same analogies you've provided.

 

I think you're right...we're going to need to agree to disagree.

[grogster]

I understand this. This is why it is so hard to be with my husband at times even though things are almost always good. I'm living with someone who had it in him to think so less of me that he could have his EA without a thought as to what it would do to me. It still worries me at times.

 

An affair is a double betrayal. There's the infidelity part which is most obvious but there's all that cheating implies: that the WS did not consider the BS to be pretty enough, sexy enough, significant enough to "hold" and "honor".

 

In a way, the BS is doubly a victim.

[taylor]

I agree with you completely here, Reggie.

 

WSs KNOW it would hurt their spouses if their spouses knew they developed feelings for another person or if they had sex with another person. They certainly KNOW.

 

And you are right, WS, in the throes of an affair, don't give a rat's aZZ about how escalating affair feelings might affect their spouse. When caught up in the moment of an affair, a WSs focus is solely on the affair and the affair partner. It's as if the BS doesn't even exist.

 

Like I said, being in an affair is like watching fireworks. All the focus is on the brilliant light in the sky, not down on the ground. There could be someone bleeding to death on the ground, but no one would even notice because all eyes are fixed on the beautiful, dazzling colors bursting above.

 

That's why I believe the most hurtful thing the WS do to BS is they don't give their BS a single, momentary thought...as if they don't even exist..as if they don't even matter. What could hurt more?

 

Grogster,

 

I said basically the same thing you did in my post here. But no one cared to acknowledge any truth or validity to it.

 

Instead, most posters were more bent on spending their energy chastising me for not admitting I INTENTIONALLY wanted to hurt my husband.

 

At least someone (you) might be getting thru. Good luck.

[taylor]

Taylor, I'm not putting you on trial by any means.

 

I'm responding using the same analogies you've provided.

 

I think you're right...we're going to need to agree to disagree.

 

Not referring to you, Owl!

 

OMG, you of all posters understands my affair better than anyone else on this forum, dear friend.

 

You never judge, OWL. That's what makes your presence here valuable.

[Snowflower]

Thank you for the kind words, Snowflower.

 

FWIW, I do not think you are insane or wrong for trying to make your marriage work. You still value your marriage. I also still value my marriage.

 

It takes a strong person..a strong couple...to walk the road to recovery. It's hard to do but hopefully will be worth it in the end.

 

I also want to say that I admire you for forgiving your husband the way that you did. That kind of forgiveness is truly a special gift that you gave to your husband. I hope he realizes that. I know I do, with respect to my husband.

 

You sound strong...I take it from that that you and your husband are doing well.

 

Thank you for the encouraging words, taylor.

 

Yes, my H and I are doing well. Our 19th anniversary was this week. I wasn't sure how I would feel about it but it ended up being a very nice day. My H made me my favorite dinner and we had our 2 loud, raucous teenagers around-which kept dinner light-hearted and fun. Normally we used to have a dinner for just the two of us on our anniversary (obviously) but having the kids there made it less intense.

 

I think and hope my H realizes that my forgiveness and offer of a second chance is something special. I think he does. He has said to me many times and in different ways that he is grateful for the second chance-that it is the only one he needs because he won't blow it.

 

My H has said that he feels kind of like he had a "near death experience" with his bad decision to have an affair and very nearly lose his marriage. The experience appears to have changed my H into a better person. I think this change-which is becoming more permanent everyday-makes it even more possible for me to forgive him.

 

I hope you and your H are doing well also!

[grogster]

Grogster,

 

I said basically the same thing you did in my post here. But no one cared to acknowledge any truth or validity to it.

 

Instead, most posters were more bent on spending their energy chastising me for not admitting I INTENTIONALLY wanted to hurt my husband.

 

At least someone (you) might be getting thru. Good luck.

 

You're correct, Taylor. I was unaware of your post. Your language is more colorful and concrete than mine, but the message's the same.

 

Very good post.

[Trialbyfire]

I know what his intent was, which had nothing to do with me. But realistically speaking, who cares about intent? In violating the fidelity clause of our marital vows, he received a pink slip for his efforts. That's all I have to add to this discussion.

[grogster]

I know what his intent was, which had nothing to do with me. But realistically speaking, who cares about intent? In violating the fidelity clause of our marital vows, he received a pink slip for his efforts. That's all I have to add to this discussion.

 

 

I agree. The absence of ill motive is no excuse, and it certainly doesn't ease the sting of infidelity. If anything, it can function as one, of many, rationalizations for the cheating. "Well, I didn't mean to hurt you!"

 

I view infidelity more as a general intent than specific intent "crime" of the Heart.

[Lostchances]

Lost chances..your the one who said the why didn't matter. You are arguing with yourself.

 

Nothing unusual about that. Happens all the time. It is not a problem talking to oneself, the problem is in answering back.

 

I think it is very important that BS find out why their spouse chose to enter an affair. It is especially important for marital recovery. I know. I am there right now. I know first hand how important it is to get to the root answer of WHY?

 

Why does not equal intent. Simple as that. That's what my wordy argument was trying to say.

 

Now I'm done.

 

No you're not.