On "Intent"

[Tired03]

There's been a lot of debate recently about "intent" with regard to infidelity, and as I was reading an article this morning, it made me curious.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/16/us.torture.documents/index.html

 

What do you think of this? Does intent matter here?

[lostsunsets]

This is not a political thread so don't hi-jack it. Unless the detainees were dating each other, you should find a different place to post this stuff.

[angie2443]

I didn't read the article because I think that does belong on the politics board.

 

I will say this about intent, though. After going through what I went through, it doesn't matter if the person intends to hurt you or not. If their actions hurt you, they hurt you. If your dancing with someone who always steps on your toes, it's going to hurt. They may not mean to, but it's going to hurt and unless they stop, your not going to want to dance with them anymore.

[Tired03]

I'm not posting it about politics. I'm posting it about Intent.

 

There was a lot of discussion about whether intent mattered or not in infidelity. I'm curious, for those who *do or do not* think intent matters to talk about whether intent in one area of "wrong" doesn't matter or does matter the same way as it does in infidelity.

 

Does that not make sense?

[angie2443]

I'm not posting it about politics. I'm posting it about Intent.

 

There was a lot of discussion about whether intent mattered or not in infidelity. I'm curious, for those who *do or do not* think intent matters to talk about whether intent in one area of "wrong" doesn't matter or does matter the same way as it does in infidelity.

 

Does that not make sense?

 

I was thinking about infidelity when I posted. My husband had an EA years ago. He didn't intend to hurt me, but he still did. In this way the intent doesn't matter. If it happens again, I'm out of the relationship. In this sense, the intent doesn't matter. The damage is done regardless of intent or lack of it.

 

Would it matter if he did intend to hurt me? I guess it would depend on the reason. If I had cheated in the past and his EA was a result of that, I might be more understanding. His intent would make sense to me, even though I don't think it(the EA) is the right thing to do. So, in this regard, the intent would matter. I hope this makes sense.

[samprez]

Angie, go to the last 4 pages of "Me of All People" thread just below and read the raging debate on intent.

[Reggie]

Here's my take: as regards the torture thing, they are simply playing word games to justify their actions. Intent to cause harm can be inferred from their actions. Clearly , terrorizing folks with the fear of imminent death(waterboarding) demonstrates the intent to cause harm. It is harmful, psychologically.

On the "intent" of cheaters, I think you can infer that they have "reckless disregard" for the welfare of their victims. The law recognizes "reckless disregard" as just about as culpable as specific intent. Driving 120mph on a crowded street is recognized as evidence that the driver has no regard for the safety of others.

Cheaters , by their actions, (paticularly the cruelty associated with gaslighting, blameshifting and the disemination of false info re the BS) show no concern for the damage they know will befall the BS and the kids.

This "fog" theory , IMO, is a smokescreen cheaters use to try to explain away their apparent lack of humanity.

[jwi71]

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with infidelity. Its a simple argument about intent in a broad sense...hence the link to torture and terrorists. And general arguments do NOT belong in this section...there are sections for this already.

 

Mods?

 

Mods?

 

Can we relocate this to the watercooler thread please...it doesn't belong here.

[Tired03]

I guess I disagree jw71 - I only posted the article because that was the catalyst for me thinking about Intent as it was debated in the other thread. Since that thread was really being hijacked by the intent discussion, I thought I would bring it up in a separate thread.

 

I can remove the link if that makes more sense - I really have no desire to debate politics but rather to discuss intent - Is "intent" in a cheating instance different than "intent" in other instances.

 

Would that make you happier?

[Tired03]

Okay, I can't remove the link - if the mods would like to, that's fine - and I can't move it myself either, unless I'm being totally stupid

[angie2443]

The issue of intent has come up in at least a couple of threads on the infidelity board and I think on the OW/OM board. I think it might be important to discuss.

 

Again, from what I learned, I don't care if a person intends to hurt me or doesn't intend to hurt me by there actions. If they do something that they know will/might hurt me I am going to take the precautions to protect myself, whatever those precautions might be.

[angie2443]

Here's my take: as regards the torture thing, they are simply playing word games to justify their actions. Intent to cause harm can be inferred from their actions. Clearly , terrorizing folks with the fear of imminent death(waterboarding) demonstrates the intent to cause harm. It is harmful, psychologically.

On the "intent" of cheaters, I think you can infer that they have "reckless disregard" for the welfare of their victims. The law recognizes "reckless disregard" as just about as culpable as specific intent. Driving 120mph on a crowded street is recognized as evidence that the driver has no regard for the safety of others.

Cheaters , by their actions, (paticularly the cruelty associated with gaslighting, blameshifting and the disemination of false info re the BS) show no concern for the damage they know will befall the BS and the kids.

This "fog" theory , IMO, is a smokescreen cheaters use to try to explain away their apparent lack of humanity.

 

I agree with this.

[Tired03]

Cheaters , by their actions, (paticularly the cruelty associated with gaslighting, blameshifting and the disemination of false info re the BS) show no concern for the damage they know will befall the BS and the kids.

 

Okay, so what if there is no gaslighting? Say it's purely an emotional affair, and it ends early enough that the only lie to the spouse is a lie of omission.

[michelangelo]

Lies of omission are seriously effed up.

 

I think what you are trying to do is find that wiggle room to ease your mind.

[angie2443]

Okay, so what if there is no gaslighting? Say it's purely an emotional affair, and it ends early enough that the only lie to the spouse is a lie of omission.

 

I'm wondering, what do you think?

[Tired03]

I'm not a cheater, nor involved in an emotional affair. So I'm not looking for any wiggle room.

 

To me, intent would matter very much. If my husband cheated on me because he was angry with me, that actually to me would be less forgivable than a situation that he sort of fell into - a slippery slope, if you will.

 

If he lied to me to "protect my feelings" from a ONS that shouldn't have happened, but did, I would find that more forgivable than lying to me to continue an affair.

 

Does any of that make sense? Not sure I'm being real articulate today - obviously .

[angie2443]

I'm not a cheater, nor involved in an emotional affair. So I'm not looking for any wiggle room.

 

To me, intent would matter very much. If my husband cheated on me because he was angry with me, that actually to me would be less forgivable than a situation that he sort of fell into - a slippery slope, if you will.

 

If he lied to me to "protect my feelings" from a ONS that shouldn't have happened, but did, I would find that more forgivable than lying to me to continue an affair.

 

Does any of that make sense? Not sure I'm being real articulate today - obviously .

 

I don't know if you've ever been cheated on and I wonder if that would change your point of view if you had.

 

I do know that people rarely lie to protect other's feelings. They almost always lie to protect themselves and avoid punishment, whatever that "punishment" might be. Consequenses might be a better word than punishment.

[Tired03]

I've been cheated on in the past, yes.

 

But I disagree - I lie to protect my children's feelings all the time. I've lied to protect my spouse's feelings (about other things - not infidelity) in the past.

[Snowflower]

I'm not a cheater, nor involved in an emotional affair. So I'm not looking for any wiggle room.

 

To me, intent would matter very much. If my husband cheated on me because he was angry with me, that actually to me would be less forgivable than a situation that he sort of fell into - a slippery slope, if you will.

 

If he lied to me to "protect my feelings" from a ONS that shouldn't have happened, but did, I would find that more forgivable than lying to me to continue an affair.

 

Does any of that make sense? Not sure I'm being real articulate today - obviously .

 

This continues to be a hot debate topic on these threads. I'm not sure how much everyone will want to rehash the subject.

 

But I agree, intent does matter-even though the end result is the same. Others will disagree but as a BS myself, intent did matter.

 

IMO, if a WS has an A for whatever reason and realizes that it is wrong and stops it quickly that is a different intent than a WS that has an A and continues it--because then the cruel behaviors usually start-the gaslighting, the lies, the deceit.

 

The lying was actually one of the easier things to overcome in my situation because my H did it to spare my feelings and not to continue the affair.

 

I am just basing my response on what happened in my situation but it just goes to show that every A situation is different.

[angie2443]

I've been cheated on in the past, yes.

 

But I disagree - I lie to protect my children's feelings all the time. I've lied to protect my spouse's feelings (about other things - not infidelity) in the past.

 

I do the little white lies with many people to protect their feelings. If they ask me how I like their new hair style, I always say it looks nice, regardless of how I feel. I don't lie about the important issues, though, especially with the people closest to me.

 

I don't lie to my children, although they are 5 and under so I do ommit things and I try to explain things that their minds can comprehand. There are some things that I won't tell my children, but this is less about protecting their feelings and more about keeping certain bounderies between me and them.

 

If I may ask, what things have you lied about to your husband to protect his feelings? I'm curious because we seem to have a very differant view on the idea of lying to protect others feelings.

[Owl]

A lie by omission is still an INTENTIONAL deception.

 

Again, there is no way that an affair of any kind is anything less than INTENTIONAL once it's begun.

 

That's the thing...you can look at how it started and try to guess "INTENT"...but it really doesn't matter, because it becomes an INTENTIONAL activity very very quickly.

 

There is ALWAYS a "point of no return" that the WS recognizes...a line in the sand...a boundary that the WS clearly knows that they're violating...that they then clearly and intentionally violate.

 

An affair that goes to anything outside of the WS's own head is ABSOLUTELY an intentional event. There's no way around that.

[angie2443]

A lie by omission is still an INTENTIONAL deception.

 

Again, there is no way that an affair of any kind is anything less than INTENTIONAL once it's begun.

 

That's the thing...you can look at how it started and try to guess "INTENT"...but it really doesn't matter, because it becomes an INTENTIONAL activity very very quickly.

 

There is ALWAYS a "point of no return" that the WS recognizes...a line in the sand...a boundary that the WS clearly knows that they're violating...that they then clearly and intentionally violate.

 

An affair that goes to anything outside of the WS's own head is ABSOLUTELY an intentional event. There's no way around that.

 

Thankyou for writing this. My husband ommited much information during his EA, and later never understood why it was wrong. It really confused me for a long time, but I now understand that the lying by ommition is still an intentional act.

[Tired03]

If I may ask, what things have you lied about to your husband to protect his feelings? I'm curious because we seem to have a very differant view on the idea of lying to protect others feelings.

 

My story is rather long and convoluted, but essentially my husband was abusive for a long time. Mostly verbal. So through the process of recovery from this, there have been times where I know that he is misremembering or that what I really think about things that he said wouldn't be useful in the context. So I didn't always say what I thought in order to spare his feelings - to let him work through the issues that he needed to work through.

 

Kind of a poor example - and vague, but it is an example of lying to protect someone's feelings.

 

With my children - my ex-husband is a very selfish man, and has been fighting for custody of my eldest son regardless of my eldest son's feelings about it. I've had to lie about his intentions to my eldest son in order to protect the relationship.

 

Make any sense?

 

And Owl, you know I disagree about the boundaries being clear - they aren't always clear, and I've been trying to ferret that out for awhile.

[Snowflower]

 

An affair that goes to anything outside of the WS's own head is ABSOLUTELY an intentional event. There's no way around that.

 

So an EA--which is all pretty much in the head--feelings, longings, etc. for someone who is not your spouse and no physical boundaries are crossed--isn't intentional?

 

I'm surprised you would say this, owl...based on what you have posted here before!

 

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.

[angie2443]

My story is rather long and convoluted, but essentially my husband was abusive for a long time. Mostly verbal. So through the process of recovery from this, there have been times where I know that he is misremembering or that what I really think about things that he said wouldn't be useful in the context. So I didn't always say what I thought in order to spare his feelings - to let him work through the issues that he needed to work through.

 

Kind of a poor example - and vague, but it is an example of lying to protect someone's feelings.

 

With my children - my ex-husband is a very selfish man, and has been fighting for custody of my eldest son regardless of my eldest son's feelings about it. I've had to lie about his intentions to my eldest son in order to protect the relationship.

 

Make any sense?

 

And Owl, you know I disagree about the boundaries being clear - they aren't always clear, and I've been trying to ferret that out for awhile.

 

I understand where you're comming from. I would've handled it differantly, I think, but I get your motivation for the lying.

 

As far as the bounderies issue, I think they are usually clear. This is why there is lying and lying by ommition. When a person covers up there tracks, they are aware there is a reason to cover them. Otherwise, why bother covering them at all. They know they crossed a line.