lazyhappylucky Posted April 15, 2009 Posted April 15, 2009 just a question, totaly not trying to be a bitch but it seems to me like a lot of guys dodge the truth until it's convenient for them. In any scenerio, if they're wrong they deny and dodge until it's convenient. Not saying all men but some, why? I guess it depends on the person right?
MeMyself&I Posted April 15, 2009 Posted April 15, 2009 just a question, totaly not trying to be a bitch but it seems to me like a lot of guys dodge the truth until it's convenient for them. In any scenerio, if they're wrong they deny and dodge until it's convenient. Not saying all men but some, why? I guess it depends on the person right? Guys will avoid confrontation until the cows come home. I think rather than dodge the truth they just avoid conversation in general. If somethings broke, a guy wants to fix it. If a guy knows what he says isn't going to fix it.......he doesn't want to do it. Guys like to feel like they have succeeded not failed so when you confront them about something they've done wrong they don't see it as trying to help or solve something they just hear "you failed, you aren't meeting my needs, you are not adequate." I actually had a boyfriend tell me this one time when I was trying to talk to him about something. He said, I'm not meeting your needs and I can't so I'm a loser and I failed. NO......that is not what I meant. But that's how he took it. YOU ARE RIGHT!! Not all men are this way but as a whole men are driven by competition, success and sorry guys (basic needs). But that can't be all bad or we wouldn't love 'em.....right?!! lol
BCCA Posted April 15, 2009 Posted April 15, 2009 Well, Im sure you were expecting this, but women do the exact same thing you complain about more often than not. Its happened to me, many, many times. I think the way men and women talk is also part of the problem. Women tend to beat around the bush and be cryptic about what they say, whereas guys are usually pretty simple and straight forward. And why is it that women think 'I dont know' is an acceptable answer to anything they dont want to answer honestly???
The Collector Posted April 15, 2009 Posted April 15, 2009 Try and get a woman to admit she was wrong, then come back to me. I won't hold my breath.
The Collector Posted April 15, 2009 Posted April 15, 2009 Also it's nothing to do with men being 'dense.'
carhill Posted April 15, 2009 Posted April 15, 2009 If a guy wants to get laid, he's not going to cloud reality with the truth, right?
BCCA Posted April 15, 2009 Posted April 15, 2009 Try and get a woman to admit she was wrong, then come back to me. I won't hold my breath. Quoted for truth. And 'I know I was wrong, but...' is not admitting you were wrong, its rationalizing.
Trialbyfire Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 just a question, totaly not trying to be a bitch but it seems to me like a lot of guys dodge the truth until it's convenient for them. In any scenerio, if they're wrong they deny and dodge until it's convenient. Not saying all men but some, why? I guess it depends on the person right? Pride, ego, denial and emotional density!
SoulSearch_CO Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 Try and get a woman to admit she was wrong, then come back to me. I won't hold my breath. Just as the original post was a blanket statement and insulting to men that DON'T do that, I find yours the same. I have definitely learned (through my most recent failed marriage) how to say I'm wrong. And BELIEVE me, I hated it the first time. I almost get a kick out of it, now, for some odd reason. You know, thinking about it, I think I like it because it gives me and my partner the chance to be closer because I admitted a weakness. So - not all women are like this. And for BCCA - it's NOT "I was wrong, but..." I admit fault and apologize.
Author lazyhappylucky Posted April 16, 2009 Author Posted April 16, 2009 Well, Im sure you were expecting this, but women do the exact same thing you complain about more often than not. Its happened to me, many, many times. I think the way men and women talk is also part of the problem. Women tend to beat around the bush and be cryptic about what they say, whereas guys are usually pretty simple and straight forward. And why is it that women think 'I dont know' is an acceptable answer to anything they dont want to answer honestly??? lol, I agree that women do use the "I don't know" thing a lot but it usually depends on the guy, if we think you're going to blow up about it we just choose to shut up. In another case you have to remember that women are right when they're right and right when they're wrong, even if we did answer it wouldn't matter because we're gonna win anyway, whether you feel like it or not. I prefer not to do that though, it makes you seem evil and controlling.
Author lazyhappylucky Posted April 16, 2009 Author Posted April 16, 2009 We do alot of thinking with our penis. lol, I'm a woman
Author lazyhappylucky Posted April 16, 2009 Author Posted April 16, 2009 Also it's nothing to do with men being 'dense.' actually it does but you're not looking at the word correctly
Trialbyfire Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 lol, I agree that women do use the "I don't know" thing a lot but it usually depends on the guy, if we think you're going to blow up about it we just choose to shut up. In another case you have to remember that women are right when they're right and right when they're wrong, even if we did answer it wouldn't matter because we're gonna win anyway, whether you feel like it or not. I prefer not to do that though, it makes you seem evil and controlling. If you can't express what you need to a partner, this isn't a good thing. Never be afraid to piss someone off or worse yet, lose them. If it takes walking on eggshells or pretending to be someone else, to avoid conflict, you're not compatible partners.
serial muse Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 Just as the original post was a blanket statement and insulting to men that DON'T do that, I find yours the same. Quoted for truth. The OP was insulting to men. Lots of women are completely dense, and lots of men aren't. I would really hope that's obvious, but apparently it needs repeating! Funny about the "I don't know" thing...that's something that drives me up the wall as well. Trust me, women don't have a monopoly on that. I certainly rarely use it; my trouble is I'm always too much in my head, trying to analyze things. To me, "I don't know" is just a big dodge and a lazy cop-out. it's NOT "I was wrong, but..." I admit fault and apologize. This is an interesting thing too, and something I want to comment on. It seems to me that both sides of any relationship tend to think the other has a problem with apologizing. But anyway. I've used the "I'm sorry for this, but..." and it's made my BF very angry (of course, he doesn't seem to hear when he does it) for precisely the reason BCCA said. And that is really annoying, because it's completely unfair. The reason people do that is not to rationalize. At least, that's not the usage I'm talking about. Here's my story: I used to offer up a clean apology for something I might have said or done wrong - and, I found, the conversation tended to just stop right there. He accepted and moved on. No mention of his own faults or acknowledgment of how we both got us to where we were, which is almost always the case. And after repeated events like that, this dynamic had been created where he (and I) felt like I was the one who was always screwing up. I even started to believe this. Because I was the one apologizing, so it was like a tacit agreement that I was the one at fault. My feelings about big fights, though, are that both people bring stuff to the table they shouldn't (smaller fights can just involve someone acting like a brat, which happens too, in which case they should admit it). Anyway, I realized that I was just apologizing first, and he felt satisfied, and that was the end of the matter, and I felt like I was left hanging. Hence the "I'm sorry, but..." It's a way of ensuring that the discussion doesn't end with just talking about me, as was happening all too often. At some point, he has to cop to his crap, too, and even if I do it first (because I calm down sooner), that doesn't mean I don't want him to own his stuff. Which is something he really hates doing, but is getting better at, IMO. I think it's because I don't let him get away with it anymore. So, sorry, but. Sometimes it's okay to say it. And justified.
Jersey Shortie Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 Try and get a woman to admit she was wrong, then come back to me. I won't hold my breath. Why would a woman be wrong? Just to clarify, women beat around the bush and men think with their penis...these two posts followed each other and it made me laugh.
zhsoj Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 Haha, if us men are so dense, why do women attempt to communicate with us by being cryptic? All in good jest.
2sure Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 Maybe OP is just particularly attracted to those men who are dense. Just go with it, why ask why?
BCCA Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 So, sorry, but. Sometimes it's okay to say it. And justified. As soon as you say 'but', everything said before it is meaningless. It means youre not sorry, but you will admit some partial fault 'but' want to blame most of what you said on the other person or some situation that you wont take the fault for. What men would prefer is 'Im sorry for X, I didnt mean to hurt you. I also want you to know that you did X, and that bothered me.' Truth be told, you saying sorry and telling the other person what theyve done are not the same issues. If you have something to say sorry for, you cant put conditions on it. Basically, youre saying youre only sorry if they take their responsibility, which again really isnt an apology. No one likes conditional apologies.
serial muse Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 As soon as you say 'but', everything said before it is meaningless. It means youre not sorry, but you will admit some partial fault 'but' want to blame most of what you said on the other person or some situation that you wont take the fault for. What men would prefer is 'Im sorry for X, I didnt mean to hurt you. I also want you to know that you did X, and that bothered me.' Truth be told, you saying sorry and telling the other person what theyve done are not the same issues. If you have something to say sorry for, you cant put conditions on it. Basically, youre saying youre only sorry if they take their responsibility, which again really isnt an apology. No one likes conditional apologies. Geez, I'm not sure why I bothered to post. I gather you didn't get my point at all, or else just stopped reading when you realized I was offering a counterpoint to yours and immediately prepared to type a rebuttal. I do not think all men are dense, by any stretch. But I dislike people who don't listen and are incapable of empathizing, regardless of gender. It kills the conversation. Oh, what the hell. I'll try again. "I'm sorry but" is not always a conditional apology. There. Understand now? You're assuming the "but" is conditional on the "I'm sorry". I'm using it as a connector between clauses. Jumping on top of people for a grammatical tic (and that's largely what it is - trying to rush into saying two separate things: "I'm sorry" and "but are you going to address your side of things ever?" by lumping them together). So you see that as conditional. Well, I don't, and I don't get mad when someone uses that phraseology, either, because: a) I'm not anal; and b) I'm interested in and paying attention to what they're trying to say, not in correcting their language while they're trying to do it. Being a language Nazi is not a good way to create understanding or build bridges. Intention matters more. Jesus H. Christ.
BCCA Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 I read your entire post, but I'm sorry if you feel like I wasnt listening. Your point is essentially that you add the 'but' because you feel as though simply apologizing ends the conversation before you have a chance to seek an apology of your own, which is a valid concern. My point was that the two things dont have to be tied together, meaning, you dont have to hedge on your sorry with a 'but' just to make sure you get an apology as well. Thats called a conditional apology, you are only sorry for what you did if theyre sorry for what they did. Im sorry if this isnt what you wanted to hear. Im just giving a guys opinion on the subject, and 'Im sorry, but...' is always going to be annoying to us. Its not saying sorry, its saying youre only sorry if I admit some fault of my own. If this wasnt clear, please let me know. I wasnt trying to discredit what you said, and I definitely read your post in its entirety, I just disagreed.
BCCA Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 Being a language Nazi is not a good way to create understanding or build bridges You dont think thats a bit overboard? I wasnt being a 'nazi' but it isnt about grammar, its about the interpretation of what you said. What it may mean to you and how its going to be interpreted arent the same thing. I really wasnt trying to piss anyone off here
serial muse Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 I read your entire post, but I'm sorry if you feel like I wasnt listening. Your point is essentially that you add the 'but' because you feel as though simply apologizing ends the conversation before you have a chance to seek an apology of your own, which is a valid concern. My point was that the two things dont have to be tied together, meaning, you dont have to hedge on your sorry with a 'but' just to make sure you get an apology as well. Thats called a conditional apology, you are only sorry for what you did if theyre sorry for what they did. Im sorry if this isnt what you wanted to hear. Im just giving a guys opinion on the subject, and 'Im sorry, but...' is always going to be annoying to us. Its not saying sorry, its saying youre only sorry if I admit some fault of my own. If this wasnt clear, please let me know. I wasnt trying to discredit what you said, and I definitely read your post in its entirety, I just disagreed. This is not a gender issue, first of all. I don't think there's a single "guy's point of view" on the "I'm sorry but" issue any more than there is a single woman's point of view. I'm sure both sides have their various opinions. Second, my point is that of course sometimes it is a ****ty apology. However, sometimes it's simply linking together two different things using a common conjunction. I think the bigger problem is assuming the worst instead of listening.
serial muse Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 You dont think thats a bit overboard? I wasnt being a 'nazi' but it isnt about grammar, its about the interpretation of what you said. What it may mean to you and how its going to be interpreted arent the same thing. I really wasnt trying to piss anyone off here I changed it to language in a later edit, because I think that's more accurate. Sure, it's a strong way of saying it. But it's a pet peeve when people hear the word "but" and then take it down all sorts of wrong roads, simply because they assume the worst about what another person is trying to say. I mean, ugh. I think that's a real communication problem - if the mere word sets you off, rather than being able to step back and try to hear what the other person is saying and whether s/he is really backing off on the apology, then there's a big issue there. It suggests that a person pays closer attention to the letter than to the spirit of the discussion.
BCCA Posted April 16, 2009 Posted April 16, 2009 I listened, I read everything you said. I just disagree, thats all. You shouldnt assume because we have conflicting views that its only because Im not listening, although Im sure Im guilty of doing the same from time to time. My point was only that, for me personally (and obviously I dont speak for every guy in a world of over 300 million) adding 'but' to any statement means that youre only sorry if I admit something. If thats not what you were implying, then my mistake. my point is that of course sometimes it is a ****ty apology Why even bother making a s****y apology?
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