Our dilemma

[Shadowcat]

I am a little bit testing the waters here. I come from a country where it is not considered wrong when someone who is in a relationship or marriage falls in love with someone else. What makes it wrong is when the married person does not make a decision whether to stay in the marriage and be faithful or leave it for the new relationship.

 

I have for decades been in an abusive relationship with a man who is a sober alcoholic but an active gambler. My needs were not met, and I openly decided to look for another man, although the physical part of our relationship was still going on.

 

At this point in my life I received an email from a man from my teenage years. A man from the US where I lived for a couple of years. He was according to himself happily married with kids since a long time back. I cried for a week for having come in contact with him once again only to get to know that he was taken.

 

We continued to write and IM, and soon it was obvious something was happening between us. We started talking on the phone and the tension increased. He tried to break the contact with me several times because he saw where it was heading, but did not succeed. The bond between us was already too strong. We decided to meet. It was wonderful, but once I was back in my country he tried once again, unsuccessfully, to break up.

 

We continued to have contact via phone and webcam for a long time, since we were not able to arrange a trip again. Recently we managed and spent a wonderful (to say the least) week together. But where do we go from here? How long do I have to wait for him to make a decision?

 

He is a good man, and this is very untypical behaviour for him. I know he has never had an affair before and he is very troubled by the fact that he cannot decide what to do. He can't make himself leave his wife and kids and he cannot make himself leave me. He has promised me that he will not let this go on forever, he will make a decision one day.

 

The thing is that this man is so supportive of me. I really love him and feel that I have found my soul mate. He is so caring and treats me so well, always listens and supports me. It is obvious to me that he has had a positive influence on me and my life.

 

I ended my relationship with my old boyfriend and expected MM to do the same. That is what we do in my country when a relationship outside marriage becomes this deep and strong. That is not what you do in the US, which I have had to learn the hard way. This has been going on for three years now, and I am afraid that it will never change.

 

Don't tell me to leave him, because I know I will not. Just consider how long I stayed with my alcoholic/gambler boyfriend.

Don't tell me to look for another man, because it took me 25 years to find this one, and I am pretty unsocial, I do not get around much.

Don't tell me to get individual therapy to raise my selfesteem, because I have been there and done that.

 

MM knows I have found this forum. He as well as I am interested in if it in some way can help us with our dilemma. First we need to know if you people can be trusted, or if you will just point finger at us - the OW and the MM - and tell us that what we are doing is wrong. We need support and advice from people who understand where we are at without judging us.

[LucreziaBorgia]

I don't know that therapy for self esteem would be necessary. Only some to help you understand why you find yourself with emotionally unavailable men who can't and won't love you the way you want and deserve to be loved.

 

Since therapy isn't an option nor is changing what you are doing, then you will need some coping mechanisms:

 

1. As long as you condone him staying married, he will stay married. What possible reason would he have to divorce if he doesn't absolutely have to? He will only divorce if forced to. "Love" isn't a strong enough force to make a man leave a marriage when he doesn't want to, as you have seen. He knows you won't go anywhere regardless of how married or not he is.

 

2. If you will not change, and he will not change then you have to live with your relationship as it is. You will need to know and understand that as the 'outsider' you will have to, to some extent realize and accept your place as the 'other' for as long as you are able to tolerate it.

 

A man who is given no decision to make, makes no decisions.

[bentnotbroken]

I am a little bit testing the waters here. I come from a country where it is not considered wrong when someone who is in a relationship or marriage falls in love with someone else. What makes it wrong is when the married person does not make a decision whether to stay in the marriage and be faithful or leave it for the new relationship.

 

I have for decades been in an abusive relationship with a man who is a sober alcoholic but an active gambler. My needs were not met, and I openly decided to look for another man, although the physical part of our relationship was still going on.

 

At this point in my life I received an email from a man from my teenage years. A man from the US where I lived for a couple of years. He was according to himself happily married with kids since a long time back. I cried for a week for having come in contact with him once again only to get to know that he was taken.

 

We continued to write and IM, and soon it was obvious something was happening between us. We started talking on the phone and the tension increased. He tried to break the contact with me several times because he saw where it was heading, but did not succeed. The bond between us was already too strong. We decided to meet. It was wonderful, but once I was back in my country he tried once again, unsuccessfully, to break up.

 

We continued to have contact via phone and webcam for a long time, since we were not able to arrange a trip again. Recently we managed and spent a wonderful (to say the least) week together. But where do we go from here? How long do I have to wait for him to make a decision?

 

He is a good man, and this is very untypical behaviour for him. I know he has never had an affair before and he is very troubled by the fact that he cannot decide what to do. He can't make himself leave his wife and kids and he cannot make himself leave me. He has promised me that he will not let this go on forever, he will make a decision one day.

 

 

*****{I wonder how you know that this isn't typical behaviour for him. Did he tell you that? Humm, sounds like he is on the verge of sainthood. It sounds like he is a child, "HE CAN'T MAKE HIMSELF LEAVE HIS WIFE AND KIDS AND HE CAN'T MAKE HIMSELF LEAVE YOU" Ahhh. Maybe you should tell his wife so she can make the choice for both of you.}*****

 

The thing is that this man is so supportive of me. I really love him and feel that I have found my soul mate. He is so caring and treats me so well, always listens and supports me. It is obvious to me that he has had a positive influence on me and my life.

 

 

*****{I should start keeping count of how many times I read and hear this}*****

 

I ended my relationship with my old boyfriend and expected MM to do the same. That is what we do in my country when a relationship outside marriage becomes this deep and strong. That is not what you do in the US, which I have had to learn the hard way. This has been going on for three years now, and I am afraid that it will never change.

 

Don't tell me to leave him, because I know I will not. Just consider how long I stayed with my alcoholic/gambler boyfriend.

Don't tell me to look for another man, because it took me 25 years to find this one, and I am pretty unsocial, I do not get around much.

Don't tell me to get individual therapy to raise my selfesteem, because I have been there and done that.

 

******{Seems like you didn't stay in therapy long enough. It takes some people years to figure out why they don't tick in a normal rhythm. You stayed with an alkie/gambler and look for someone for 25 years:eek: and are anti social, that doesn't bode well for you ever living an emotionally healthy life. You will settle for anything. Why not go get an unmarried and without children NOTHING OF A SO CALLED MAN?}********

 

MM knows I have found this forum. He as well as I am interested in if it in some way can help us with our dilemma. First we need to know if you people can be trusted, or if you will just point finger at us - the OW and the MM - and tell us that what we are doing is wrong. We need support and advice from people who understand where we are at without judging us.

 

 

*****Trusted to do what? Tell you that what you are doing to his wife and kids is alright and that you should keep it up? Or trust "you people" to give you the professional help each of you so desperately needs? Or trusted to tell you that if you both thought what you were doing was right, you would give his wife the same option by telling her what you are doing. She does deserve to make decisions about her life. She has already had you in it for a number of years without her knowledge or consent, how would you feel if someone was doing that to you? Or do you mean trust "you people" to not to speak the truth? Which is it?******

[jj33]

?? Where did you get the idea that affairs are ok in the US or more ok than there are anywhere else? They arent. This man is stringing you along. Either you want to be his mistress or you dont.

 

If you dont then cut him off and if he means what he says he will leave and be with you honestly. If he doesnt, then you dont need him.

 

yes its complicated and he has obligations etc etc etc but he has no business stringing you along either.

 

If he hasnt left in 3 years I think its unlikely that he is leaving but you never know.

[Athena]

All affairs are messy so don't expect a magic answer. A typical MM will carry on enjoying his real life with wife and kids, and his fantasy OW on the side.

The question is - can you?

You say you will be there for him and not leave. So essentially you are expecting him to either cut you off, or leave his W for you. Has he made any kind of plans about where you and he will live? Are you able to get a visa for the USA? Do you want to be uprooted and go live in his hometown, while he stays nearby for his kids visits? Is he willing to tell all his family members and friends that he is throwing away his marriage for an affair partner? How will they feel towards you?

 

There are a lot of issues to consider. Have you guys looked at everything?

 

In my opinion, you are asking the impossible of him -- because I am sure if you let him, he would continue having his own life, and you on the side... even though it means you have only a quarter of a life 'with' him... is that what you are willing to do?

[wildsoul]

Don't tell me to leave him, because I know I will not. Just consider how long I stayed with my alcoholic/gambler boyfriend.

Don't tell me to look for another man, because it took me 25 years to find this one, and I am pretty unsocial, I do not get around much.

Don't tell me to get individual therapy to raise my selfesteem, because I have been there and done that.

Hello and welcome.

 

Not everyone here is judgemental, although there are a few of those. However, your strict parameters on what is okay to tell you, or not tell you, feels a little off-putting to me. I understand your defensiveness, but your post comes off as hostile to those who you are asking for support.

 

I just had to get that off my chest first.

 

Since you're not at all willing to consider leaving him, then your only option is to accept staying. Be forewarned that not too many women do well with that scenario. It doesn't sound like you're one of them.

 

What do you need to do, or have him do, to justify your staying?

 

If he says "one day he will leave his wife," then perhaps you can start to figure out your own timeline for how long you're willing to wait.

 

The next big step for him would be to move out, and for you 2 to be able to date openly, even though he is still married. And undertand that phase itself might not result in him divorcing.

 

How long are you willing to give him?

[fooled once]

So what is everyone allowed to tell you?

 

That it is okay to be involved with a man who has a wife and kids?

 

That it is acceptable to be in an affair?

 

That it is okay to be loving and sleeping with a man who has a wife?

 

If he wanted to be with you, he would be. Sounds like he really doesn't want to be with you permanently. Sounds like he enjoys the ego boost of having a woman on the side to stroke his ego, tell him how wonderful he is, and be there at his beck and call.

 

Only you can decide how long you are willing to accept the scraps he gives you.

 

YOU can't make him leave his wife. YOU can't make him leave his children. And you surely can't expect him to leave this country and stat a new life with you and just abandon his kids. IF he chose to do that, he is no man of value, IMHO.

 

So good luck with putting your life in the hands of a man who has chosen to not leave his wife.

 

Divorces are messy and can be expensive. Once his wife finds out that he cheated on her, you can expect her to be pretty pissed off, as she should be since he is exposing her to STD's.

 

I will never understand how any person can think it is better to hurt an unsuspecting spouse instead of ending a marriage before starting a physical relationship (or even emotional relationship) with someone else.

 

Sometimes marriage don't work and that is fine. Starting a new relationship before ending a previous relationship is pretty sh*tty in my view.

[Shadowcat]

Sorry if I came off as defensive and restricting off your answers. I have been reading on other sites where these answers seem to be the standard ones, and was hoping to find some understanding and support of my situation here. If those solutions still are your answer after having read my post, of course you should give them.

 

I need help to sort out all the messed up thoughts in my mind by people who have been where I am, that is why I am writing to you.

 

About the cultural differences: I don't think an affair is more okay in the US, what I think is that a divorce is less okay. And since a divorce is less okay, affairs are much more prevalent.

 

"A man who is given no decision to make, makes no decisions."

I can't see how I can have any impact when it comes to this, except threatening to leave him (a threat I would not even believe in myself) or having no contact (which I am doubtful I could handle). Is there something I don't see, or are these the only ways to further a decision?

 

I have positive experiences from other areas in my life of self-help groups, and my hope is that I will find help on this forum as well. I have learnt that with the help of others I can come much further than on my own.

[Shadowcat]

"Or trusted to tell you that if you both thought what you were doing was right, you would give his wife the same option by telling her what you are doing. She does deserve to make decisions about her life. She has already had you in it for a number of years without her knowledge or consent, how would you feel if someone was doing that to you?"

 

I have been the betrayed spouse, so I do know how that feels. Sometimes I feel like the only way out of this dilemma is to let his wife know. That way it would be impossible for us to continue on and a decision would be enforced. However I don't know if it is my place to tell her, it does not feel right.

[bentnotbroken]

"Or trusted to tell you that if you both thought what you were doing was right, you would give his wife the same option by telling her what you are doing. She does deserve to make decisions about her life. She has already had you in it for a number of years without her knowledge or consent, how would you feel if someone was doing that to you?"

 

I have been the betrayed spouse, so I do know how that feels. Sometimes I feel like the only way out of this dilemma is to let his wife know. That way it would be impossible for us to continue on and a decision would be enforced. However I don't know if it is my place to tell her, it does not feel right.

 

 

 

Surely you aren't concerned about your place in her marriage or you wouldn't be sleeping with her H for years. And let's be clear about your place. Your place was not to be in her marriage in the first place, so why stop now? For you last point about it doesn't feel right to tell her, does it feel right to keep having an A with her H while she takes care of the children that she has with him. Does it feel right to receive the emotional support that she should be receiving? Does it feel right to know she believes him to be faithful and you know he isn't?

 

You points don't hold much water when held up against the light.

[RecordProducer]

Your problem is that he won't leave his wife. Your life is on hold and depends on his decision. Of course, you can change that and move on, but you refuse to. I understand you and feel for you, but I also understand that he doens't want to leave his wife and especially children. I wouldn't, if I were him. I am a mother and my children have been and will always be more important to me than any lover could ever be. Lovers come and go, kids stay. Marriages can endure affairs.

 

You want to wait for him until the kids grow up or until death sets you apart? Go ahead. You seem to want some kind of magical advice as to how to make him leave his wife. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't leave. Your man didn't. It's been three years and if he was going to leave her, he was going to do it by now. He may keep promising he'd do it but actions speak louder than promises given in the heat of passion (and I don't mean sex).

 

Get used to the fact that he is not going to leave his wife. If there's anything you can do, it's to cut contact with him and see how much he misses you. He may throw sand in your eyes, but he goes back to his wife after talking with you. Nobody is forcing him to be with her. And nobody is forcing you to be with a married man. He may be madly infatuated with you, but if he loved you deeply, he couldn't bear one more day without you.

 

You think he's your soul mate? You've never lived with him under the same roof. It's easy to be supportive and a good listener when you share nothing but affection and intimacy with someone. While you idealize him, he knows himself very well and he knows how much he can give. Has he ever done anything BIG for you? Has he ever made any sacrifice for you? If you became poor today, would he support you financially? If you were ill, would he take care of you? How can you call someone your soul mate just because you can talk to them for hours and the sex feels great? Think about it.

 

If he loves you so much, he will leave his family for you, move in the neighborhood to be close to the children and have you move to the US to be with him. But he is not going to do that obviously. The thing nis, with the 50% divorce rate in the US, if he were miserable with his wife, he'd leave her even without you being in the picture. My husband and I split recently because we fought too much. There are no third parties involved. We live 5 min from each other so the kids spend a lot of time in both houses.

[Athena]

If he loves you so much, he will leave his family for you, move in the neighborhood to be close to the children and have you move to the US to be with him.

 

Yes, I agree with this. If your OM loved you, he would move heaven and earth to have you... he would not be stringing you along for three years!

 

Why not tell the wife what is going on with this threesome she is unaware of being in? Then your MM can make up his mind to either live with you or his W. Perhaps she will even kick him out, and then he will have NO excuse to not live with you. Oh -- don't think he will be angry with you for doing this, since you will be helping him out of his Stuck Mode... (not).

 

Okay, surely you can see for yourself that he likes the setup just the way it is? He will feed you any amount of 'lines' to get you to stay where you are... on the sidelines for his gratification.

Do you think he actually cares about the fact that you are alone most of the time? That you are waiting for HIM, while he lives a full, happy, married life with his family all around him?

If he really loved you, he would have made a decision by now -- either to live with you, or to cut you loose. But his actions say that he cares more for himself than for you... that is why he keeps you on the side for his ego-stroking and doesn't seem to care that you are suffering by being out of his life so much.

 

You really have to open up your eyes to the fact that you two are very different people - he is NOT like you! He is not as in love with you as you are with him. He will NOT choose you. You are simply helping him to be selfish, and to con you into waiting and waiting and waiting... nothing is ever going to change.... how long can you do this for?

Do you realize that you are going to feel more and more empty as a person? That you will feel worse as time goes on... even though his words are sweet and loving, his actions speak the truth, and your self-esteem is going to take a severe beating... you will feel as though you are not good enough for him to make the sacrifice to be with you.

You will begin to doubt yourself more and more as time goes on. You will not find the strength to leave him in the future because you will get weaker the more time you allow yourself to put up with this unacceptable position. You are like a 'nobody' in his life. All he is interested in is how he feels and what he gets out of you.

And you are allowing him to do this, with your blessing. You are thinking it will make him see what a truly lovely person you are, but he will think how convenient it is and will carry on taking from you.

If he really cared for you he would not be putting your through this hell.

Don't you see this?!

[Athena]

The more Time you invest in this 'relationship', the more you will be inclined to stick it out with him... see... the amount you put in will seem like a huge investment which you will not want to just 'throw away' ... .it is a catch 22 situation... you will be in it because you have been in it for so long.

 

Really, think about his selfishness. He COULD have you in his life full-time but he is CHOOSING his wife.

That is the bottom line.

 

And as nice and sweet as you are about 'understanding' his choice, it doesn't mean he is suddenly going to want you ... you are suffering from delusional thinking and you cannot even see it... how can you want to do more of the SAME -- i.e. give him another three years... when THAT did NOT work!!!!

Can't you see if anything, you should be doing something Different?? Not more of the same??

I really feel for you -- you mean well, but you are being strung along, and will continue to be strung along for as long as you allow yourself to be.

You may feel it is out of your control to change this situation, and you are leaving it up to your MM to Make The Decision, but it is YOU that is allowing this to carry on the same as usual. Until you stop it, or change the dynamics of this relationship, nothing will change at all. And you can continue to live on Hope for the Future, and cry into your pillow at night, waiting and wishing, while your MM lives a life away from you, unaware, and unbothered.

[RecordProducer]

Since you're not at all willing to consider leaving him, then your only option is to accept staying

I am not so sure that she is determined to stay regardless of what she says. I wouldn't be surprised if a week from now she dumps him like hot rocks. People like her who are so passionate and full of love are the ones who most readily move on, because they've explored their feelings and give whatever they can give.

 

The problem is that he is reading this thread and will now prepare a bunch of lies and false promises just to keep her hanging around. He is a liar and a cheater, and he is also stringing his mistress along.

 

I never understood why OW don't expose their affairs to the wives, as Bent suggested. It's not only fair to the wife, but it also puts a full stop to the affair: either the MM will divorce and (not) be with his The thing is, you know that he'll ditch you if he had to choose between you and his wife. Can't yuo see that he doesn't want to choose? That he wants you both? mistress or he wil stay with his wife and ditch the mistress. NOT telling the wife only proves that the OW deep down likes being an OW. I don't believe that it's to protect the iwfe's feelings. What protection if she wants him to leave his wife anyway? They say they want MM to do it himself, not to be forced to divorce. Well, if you so believe that he loves you, then believe that upon revealing your affair, he will confess to his wife that he loves you and not her, and if he must choose, he'd choose you.

[RecordProducer]

Wow, Athena, those were excellent posts!

 

you will feel as though you are not good enough for him to make the sacrifice to be with you.

You will begin to doubt yourself more and more as time goes on.

This is so true. And it's not him who will make you feel bad about yourself - it's your own weakness and inability to stand up for yourself. You will feel cornered by his choices and feel like somebody put you in a box and pulls the strings of your life.

 

If he really cared for you he would not be putting your through this hell.

Don't you see this?!

Good question! He KNOWS he's not going to leave his wife. Oh, he knows that very well, Shadowcat. He is lying to you. You want proof? Cut contact and give him six months to file for a divorce. You think he won't leave NOW, but maybe in the future? Yeah... maybe... in the future... What happened to his passion for you?

 

You may feel it is out of your control to change this situation, and you are leaving it up to your MM to Make The Decision, but it is YOU that is allowing this to carry on the same as usual. Until you stop it, or change the dynamics of this relationship, nothing will change at all. And you can continue to live on Hope for the Future, and cry into your pillow at night, waiting and wishing, while your MM lives a life away from you, unaware, and unbothered.

NOT making a decision is a decision per se.

[Shadowcat]

Have you not read the subtitle of this forum:

 

"The Other Man / Woman The other side of the story: Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner."

 

I don't know who you are, but it seems to me you must be a BS with a lot of resentment and bitterness you need to work with.

[Shadowcat]

I am carefully reading your posts and pondering over them.

 

When it comes to reasons why not to tell his wife, I think there are three main reasons. One is the selfish one of being afraid to lose him, two is the also selfish fear of making him angry, three is the uncertainness what is morally correct to do.

 

It might seem strange to you to talk about moral in this context, since many of you obviously consider me to lack moral. Remember that the moral of my country is different than that of yours. I have done my part. I have split up from my ex partner. I am encouraging my MM to make a decision and even to tell his wife to enforce a decision. Our relationship is not hidden among my friends and family. They all know of it. Even my elderly parents approve. That is how accepted such relationships are in my country. Not the circumstances as such but my part in it. Neither has anyone criticized him. Just commented on that his marriage is in reality already dead and he ought to divorce his wife no matter what outcome his and my relationship have. That is the view of my culture.

 

Recordproducer, MM is away on a trip for three days, so he is not reading the thread and feeding me "lies" for the moment. And I think you are correct in saying "I am not so sure that she is determined to stay regardless of what she says".

 

Thank you to everybody for their replies. I know there are men who are active members on this forum. It would be interesting to hear what they have to say.

[jwi71]

I am a little bit testing the waters here. I come from a country where it is not considered wrong when someone who is in a relationship or marriage falls in love with someone else.

 

Which country? I'm genuinely curious. I have lived all over the world and I have NEVER encountered this. Usually its the exact opposite...its ok to have an A just don't fall in love. Not passing judgment simple curiosity...no need to name the city...just the country.

 

What makes it wrong is when the married person does not make a decision whether to stay in the marriage and be faithful or leave it for the new relationship.

You are projecting your cultural norms onto him. Simply because YOU feel he must choose doesn't mean HE must choose. And I hate to tell you this...but his behavior is NOT ok by US standards. His behavior is perfectly acceptable given your cultural norm (he is married but loves you). So what we may have is you projecting this norm of 'choosing' and his refusal to do so. What does your culture dictate when a cheating man refuses to choose?

 

I have for decades been in an abusive relationship with a man who is a sober alcoholic but an active gambler. My needs were not met, and I openly decided to look for another man, although the physical part of our relationship was still going on.

Wow.

 

At this point in my life I received an email from a man from my teenage years. A man from the US where I lived for a couple of years. He was according to himself happily married with kids since a long time back. I cried for a week for having come in contact with him once again only to get to know that he was taken.

Why did you cry?

 

But where do we go from here? How long do I have to wait for him to make a decision?

Thats up to you and him. When you asked him what did he say?

How long should you wait is again up to you. How long SHOULD you wait? How many more years are you willing to give him?

 

He is a good man, and this is very untypical behaviour for him. I know he has never had an affair before and he is very troubled by the fact that he cannot decide what to do.

Um...how do you know this?

 

He can't make himself leave his wife and kids and he cannot make himself leave me. He has promised me that he will not let this go on forever, he will make a decision one day.

Where have I heard this before? Ok...so he "can't" make up his mind now...but will some day. Until then wait. Of course, HIS life moves on...at home with his W and kids. You? Just sit and wait.

 

And while you wait for "him"...are you free to date and shag others? Or is that forbidden while you wait?

 

The thing is that this man is so supportive of me. I really love him and feel that I have found my soul mate. He is so caring and treats me so well, always listens and supports me. It is obvious to me that he has had a positive influence on me and my life

Methinks this ends poorly for you.

MY advice. Tell him you'll be there for him when he divorces unless you have already found a husband for yourself. Then stay in touch every ten days or so and see how he progresses.

 

I ended my relationship with my old boyfriend and expected MM to do the same. That is what we do in my country when a relationship outside marriage becomes this deep and strong. That is not what you do in the US, which I have had to learn the hard way. This has been going on for three years now, and I am afraid that it will never change.

I don't know where you et that idea from...buts its dead wrong. ITs NOT acceptable to do that in the US. You know this because his W doesn't know you exist. And neither does anyone else in his life.

 

Sorry...he is acting VERY selfish and hurting his W, his kids, and you in the process. The ohly person I see benefiting is HIM. Everyone else is either ignorant to the cheating or waiting for "him" to choose.

 

He MUST choose. If YOU are the love of his life then WHY hasn't he filed for D? OF course the answer is simple - he chooses BOTH. He hides you from his friends and family and keeps you around for the validation/ego boost/sex. And since you live in another country...its so easy to hide you. And occasinally show up for a romp.

 

And before you get all angry...this perfectly describes HIS ACTIONS doesnt it shadowcat.

 

Don't tell me to leave him, because I know I will not. Just consider how long I stayed with my alcoholic/gambler boyfriend.

Don't tell me to look for another man, because it took me 25 years to find this one, and I am pretty unsocial, I do not get around much.

Don't tell me to get individual therapy to raise my selfesteem, because I have been there and done that

Okaaaay. So WHAT do you want to hear? What advice can I give that meets YOUR expectation?

 

Becuase you aren't leaving, you don't need the self esteem and your used to men treating you like *****.

 

Obviously it takes a man more than three years to pick between his online gf and his everyday W and kids. So OP...how many years does it take to choose?

 

MM knows I have found this forum. He as well as I am interested in if it in some way can help us with our dilemma. First we need to know if you people can be trusted, or if you will just point finger at us - the OW and the MM - and tell us that what we are doing is wrong. We need support and advice from people who understand where we are at without judging us.

Maybe you should tell his W and get HER opinion on what is worng and what is right? But neither one of you will do that? Why? Why not tell her?

Why NOT file for D AFTER THREE YEARS?

 

Hmm?

[Shadowcat]

"Which country?"

To protect our anonymity, I will go as far as to say Scandinavia.

 

"What does your culture dictate when a cheating man refuses to choose?"

Wrong on his part, not on the woman's, she then becomes the victim of his non-action.

 

"are you free to date and shag others"

He is not exactly in a position to forbid that now is he.

 

"MY advice. Tell him you'll be there for him when he divorces unless you have already found a husband for yourself. Then stay in touch every ten days or so and see how he progresses."

Interesting. I will have to think about that.

 

"Okaaaay. So WHAT do you want to hear? What advice can I give that meets YOUR expectation?

Becuase you aren't leaving, you don't need the self esteem and your used to men treating you like *****."

True, I do understand there is something wrong with my tolerance of suboptimal relationships, probably goes back to my childhood. But that does not mean I am tolerant with other posters treating me like *****.

 

I found this link which talks to me, the first category that is:

 

http://www.forum.psychlinks.ca/relationships/829-the-other-woman.html

 

"Nondeserving woman

The nondeserving woman commonly has a long history of feeling insecure, unloved, undesired or rejected. She may have had an abusive early upbringing, bad experiences with men in early adulthood or other traumatic events that led her to view herself as not meriting the love and full attention of a man.

 

Less commonly, this woman may not be aware of the connection between her deep emotional wounds and their damage to her esteem.

 

In her self-disdain, the nondeserving woman is receptive to any attention and is willing to settle for 'stolen moments' with a man who is committing adultery. She is so hungry for validation that she allows herself to rationalize that 'If he met me first, we would have had a perfect relationship,' or, 'He truly loves me, but can not leave his marriage.'"

 

The last sentence belongs to your culture, not mine:

"This woman is fully aware of violating a moral commandment but is so starved for attention that she violates others by 'stealing' that which is not hers and coveting her neighbor's husband."

[jwi71]

"Which country?"

To protect our anonymity, I will go as far as to say Scandinavia.

 

Thanks.

 

"What does your culture dictate when a cheating man refuses to choose?"

Wrong on his part, not on the woman's, she then becomes the victim of his non-action.

I meant...what is the societal norm for the OW to do when the MM refuses to choose? And honestly, screw societal norms. Do what, within reason, suits your life.

 

"are you free to date and shag others"

He is not exactly in a position to forbid that now is he.

But that is exactly what he HAS done hasn't he. You are NOT free to live a life outside of him are you? I am willing to bet you date another and let him know - he goes ballistic.

 

 

"Okaaaay. So WHAT do you want to hear? What advice can I give that meets YOUR expectation?

Becuase you aren't leaving, you don't need the self esteem and your used to men treating you like *****."

True, I do understand there is something wrong with my tolerance of suboptimal relationships, probably goes back to my childhood. But that does not mean I am tolerant with other posters treating me like *****.

Worse...you allow men to treat you like that in real life...THAT you tolerate.

I trust you see my point.

 

I found this link which talks to me, the first category that is:

And why did that link speak to you?

What about "non deserving women" did you relate to?

 

How did your IC help you overcome that?

 

Of course...we both already know WHY that speaks to you and how you relate. And we both know about the IC too...

[wildsoul]

"Nondeserving woman

The nondeserving woman commonly has a long history of feeling insecure, unloved, undesired or rejected. She may have had an abusive early upbringing, bad experiences with men in early adulthood or other traumatic events that led her to view herself as not meriting the love and full attention of a man.

 

Less commonly, this woman may not be aware of the connection between her deep emotional wounds and their damage to her esteem.

 

In her self-disdain, the nondeserving woman is receptive to any attention and is willing to settle for 'stolen moments' with a man who is committing adultery. She is so hungry for validation that she allows herself to rationalize that 'If he met me first, we would have had a perfect relationship,' or, 'He truly loves me, but can not leave his marriage.'"

 

The last sentence belongs to your culture, not mine:

"This woman is fully aware of violating a moral commandment but is so starved for attention that she violates others by 'stealing' that which is not hers and coveting her neighbor's husband."

Shadowcat, I think your point about the cultural differences is just fogging up the clarity in the conversation. The US is enormous; there's too many of us here. It's like saying "Europeans" or "Asians," we're almost a whole continent. Let the cultural arguement go. (And don't buy into it from your MM either!)

 

I like what you posted about the "Undeserving Woman." It's really getting to the heart of the matter.

 

You bravely admitted your history with abusive men. (You're not alone in that, many but not all of us OW have histories of that with our fathers and/or lovers.) Obviously, you shared it because YOU know it's 100% relevent.

 

Then you also shared that great summary about the "Undeserving Woman."

 

So it's clear that you DO in fact know what your side of the problem is. You also know what it will take for you to SOLVE that problem:

 

Option 1: He is going to have to leave his current marriage, marry you, and redeem your investment. This sounds great for 2 reasons. One is that you end up being able to keep the relationship with the person you love and take it to the next level. Two is that it wipes the slate of shame over bad choices clean. You can look back saying "our love was true," and feel that all the pain was worth it.

 

Option 2: Your inner alarm clock will go off. Tick tick tick...as he continues to stall, your life ticks away. So does your self-esteem, as the realization that you're settling for table crumbs becomes stronger. The limitations of not being able to go the next step, live together, get married, etc. start to feel horrible. As painful as it is, you decide to cut your losses and move on.

 

Those are the choices that every OW/M faces.

 

If you read this forum in depth (please do!) you'll find that the majority of us OW end up taking opting #2.

 

For me, my tolerence to be in a relationship with a separated man wore out after 14-mos. The all-consuming questioning of IF he'd divorce, and WHEN he'd divorce made me constantly question myself. Was he the man of my dreams or was I being stupid? He worked overtime to lavish me with praise and affection. Ultimately, his other bad traits (verbally abusive, in addition to being a proven cheater!) made me see that he was not who BOTH of us wanted him to be. I ended it about 6 weeks ago.

 

So I chose option #2.

 

But while that choice LOOKS more painful (acknowedging the relationship wasn't what I thought; I made a poor choice) it's leading me towards healing. I'm still hurting some, but there's also a sense of freedom. It won't be long before I'll be ready to try again for a better relationship. It's a way of wiping the slate clean, too.

 

If you are realizing you've made a wrong choice, don't waste MORE YEARS trying to redeem yourself. Like the world economy now: if it's a bad investment, be prepared to take the loss, walk away and start over.

[bentnotbroken]

Have you not read the subtitle of this forum:

 

"The Other Man / Woman The other side of the story: Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner."

 

I don't know who you are, but it seems to me you must be a BS with a lot of resentment and bitterness you need to work with.

 

 

It does say discussion, does it not? It didn't say we had to support. And as for as bitterness and resentment, so over it, you have no idea:laugh:. That's usually the card an AP pulls out when they don't like the reflection in the mirror. :laugh:Maybe there are some things you need to work on, oh wait a minute, you said that in your original post, my bad.

[Lucky_One]

Maybe I am missing something, but you have only seen him twice in 3 years? Very very doubtful he will leave his wife and family for you. Why should he? You aren't giving him anything except emotional support, which he can get from your texts, calls and emails. He can continue with his life in the US, and just get some extra external stroking from you the way things are now.

[Shadowcat]

"I meant...what is the societal norm for the OW to do when the MM refuses to choose?"

 

Interestingly enough, this is so unusual over here that it is never talked about. I figure it must be because divorces are considered okay and the custody of the kids afterwards is automatically delegated to both parents.

[Shadowcat]

About IC:

What kind do you mean? I have been to shrinks, psychotherapists and counselors. None of it helped me. Al-Anon helped me a lot. I was an Al-Anon member for many years.