D-Lish Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 I think it depends on the job.... Many middle management jobs get cut when the economy is tight- and people in that age range have enough experience to put them in middle management roles. I just started a new job last month. My immediate supervisor is approaching 60. The job is very physical on top of all the administration stuff. She got sick a week into my training and was off for a week. I just picked up the job, doubled the production, took on the admin stuff and then started taking initiative to do the designs and visuals on top of it. I feel bad, but they have cut back her hours and discontinued their outside design service because I have the skills to do it. I'm also in good enough shape to work a 12 hour day and she isn't able. I was thinking I'd work this job for the summer and then move on- now it feels like they are viewing me for a long term position and this poor woman that has worked there for 10 years is getting her hours cut. I don't think 40 is old though.... I think in this economy I'd be worried if I was approaching retirement while most investments are in the toilet. So, I don't think the company I work for is discriminating against my supervisor's age, I think they are looking at me as an opportunity to save money and increase profit. I'm working for a lot less money than she is- and I am working at a much faster pace and eliminating the need to pay for an outside contractor. Most people are pretty viable in terms of job placement in their 40's. I think it's just the current economy that is forcing companies to eliminate middle management positions.
BoredPerson Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Careful. The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA) protects certain applicants and employees 40 years of age and older from discrimination on the basis of age in hiring, promotion, discharge, compensation, or terms, conditions or privileges of employment. You have to prove a causal nexus, which is pretty tough to prove. In these times, where company's are trying to save a dime here, and a dime there, cutting the highest paid salaries will be deemed a sufficient legitimate, nondiscriminatory reason for selecting them for layoff. The common denominator of age is merely a coincidence. In effect companies have been discriminating against young people for a long time. Simply because they don't provide training. Therefore young people don't have the skills needed, therefore, they don't employ young people. Kind of like shedding the older workers due to cost. Its a load of bullcrap. When you are old you're fired for being old. When you are young you are not trained because you are young. What the company means to do is completely irrelevant. But under the legal definitions neither a classified as discrimination. Under a literal definition both are clearly a form of discrimination in my opinion because they employer is the one making the decision not to hire said people not because they couldn't do the job. But because they're either young or old and as a result have either neither the skill or they're expensive. Its like me opening a bar and only hiring hot blonde chicks because I think it will attract more business. That wouldn't hold up because the link is not clear enough. Likewise hiring a graduate programmer is no different to hiring an experience programmer, merely pay the graduate much less and train on the job provided a range of other skills are met. Which never happens in reality. And the hiring a hot blonde who will perform felatio on me is not considered to be important enough to avoid being sued to death for descrimination. I went to a stupid networking event and I swear there was this one company that had the rule that they only hire sexy brown haired women with tanned skin. Friggin unreal that they can get away with that ****.
BoredPerson Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 hahaha actually it is the younger ones that have that sense of entitlement.. you know the one that they feel they should be making 80k right out of college without having to put any time or effort into their career No way it is the angry old people that want to use the young people only for their advantage and want to rape all of the women. I swear if I see another stereotypical example I am goign to have to scream when I see these hot women being hired by these offices full of sleazy middle aged men. Makes me very sad to see this sort of thing passing as anything other than sleaze. The women who put themselves in those situations shouldn't have protection under law. They should be allowd to be groped and harassed. Old people just throw these one liners around and make rampant accusations about young people. We aren't looking for 80k right out of college we're looking for a god damned career right out of college. Which was supposed to be the idea so we didn't have to keep working at walmart. We're doing exactly what you told us to do and we're working hard and we want something in return. Like you old buggers told us was supposed to happen. The reality is you want us to work for you for nothing. Well that is happening but it doesn't mean we have to like it. All of these attacks old people like yourself make to disguise the poor treatement given to the young members of this country. You should be ashamed of yourselves as a generation for the way you have treated the next generation. All we want is a fair shot at life and the same opportunities you had. Go to college and start CAREER on 40k per year is the dream. The dream I am living and I never expected 80k but I earn much more than 40. You might want to have slaves, and you might get slaves, but you won't ever get mindless slaves from us. We'll be waiting round the corner with rusty knives waiting to topple the old buggers. Young people need to band together to defend ourselves from bitter, nasty old people and the horrible world they have created for us to deal with.
Art_Critic Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 All of these attacks old people like yourself make to disguise the poor treatement given to the young members of this country. You should be ashamed of yourselves as a generation for the way you have treated the next generation. Why should I be ashamed ? First off I'm not old.. and secondly I employ young first time career people in my company. My company has employed as many as 20 young just out of college people in our 30 some year history as well as interned high school kids in some programs through their school. We also have tours thru our studio for the art colleges in town here and give the college kids a first time look at what it takes to be successful in our industry. Do they make 40k a year the first few years at my company.. most likely not.. but after a few years of going up the ladder and showing what they can do they most certainly make more than 40k.. some more.. You say that young people need to band together to fight the bitter and nasty old people that keep them down.... hahahahahahaha I can see your young , you'll learn... .. Maybe by then you will get off your pity pot and grow up some and realize that in life you are not guaranteed anything and you have to work hard for it.. I know I have had to work myself to the bone to get to where I am today.. and no old people kept me down either..
BoredPerson Posted April 19, 2009 Posted April 19, 2009 Actually Mr 'bozo the clown' I started on a package of 55, and I've already been told that next year I will get a rise to 66. You, like most rich americans don't know what good and fair would be if it hit you in the face with a pie. Typical old person. You probably spent the equivelant of your new recruits salary on strippers and eating out.
Mary3 Posted April 19, 2009 Posted April 19, 2009 Actually Mr 'bozo the clown' I started on a package of 55, and I've already been told that next year I will get a rise to 66. You, like most rich americans don't know what good and fair would be if it hit you in the face with a pie. Typical old person. You probably spent the equivelant of your new recruits salary on strippers and eating out. Would wearing Diapers be considered the age range for being cool ?
Art_Critic Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 Actually Mr 'bozo the clown' I started on a package of 55, and I've already been told that next year I will get a rise to 66. You, like most rich americans don't know what good and fair would be if it hit you in the face with a pie. Typical old person. You probably spent the equivelant of your new recruits salary on strippers and eating out. Good luck dude.. your gonna need it...
You'reasian Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 Why should I be ashamed ? First off I'm not old.. and secondly I employ young first time career people in my company. My company has employed as many as 20 young just out of college people in our 30 some year history as well as interned high school kids in some programs through their school. We also have tours thru our studio for the art colleges in town here and give the college kids a first time look at what it takes to be successful in our industry. Do they make 40k a year the first few years at my company.. most likely not.. but after a few years of going up the ladder and showing what they can do they most certainly make more than 40k.. some more.. I know I have had to work myself to the bone to get to where I am today.. and no old people kept me down either.. Good stuff, Art Critic. I like what you are doing and agree with your message.
RecordProducer Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 Openbook, and everyone who got laid off, I am sorry. I can imagine how difficult it must be to lose a job and feel helpless in this recession. Did I mention they upped the extra week of vacation accrual and 401k vesting to 7 years the week before I was laid off? Well, not you have an extra week of vacation. Just kidding, I know it's not funny, just trying to add some cheer into this sad thread. I am unemployed myself, but my heart is breaking for people who were laid off. First off I'm not old.. Arty, people in their early 20's think that 40+ year olds die of old age.
BoredPerson Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 Good luck dude.. your gonna need it... Half of everything is luck (James Bond) everyone needs luck. Unlike you I bless my good fortune and wish to assist those who have found themselves not so lucky,
Author OpenBook Posted April 20, 2009 Author Posted April 20, 2009 Half of everything is luck (James Bond) everyone needs luck. Unlike you I bless my good fortune and wish to assist those who have found themselves not so lucky, With a rusty knife?? C'mon BoringPerson, from everything you've said in this thread, it doesn't look like you're trying to help anyone. And as far as luck goes, a lot of it is making your own luck. In a way, this layoff is exhilarating to me. The future is wide open, and always in motion. Openbook, and everyone who got laid off, I am sorry. I can imagine how difficult it must be to lose a job and feel helpless in this recession. Thanks RP. It is daunting, going into a job market that's the worst since I graduated from college. The people I've met at the outplacement seminars, these men (yes, the older ones are mostly men) in their 50's and 60's, when I look at their resumes - all that experience and knowledge and wisdom going right out the door - well, I'm just floored. I am keeping my fingers crossed for them, that another company will see the incredible value they're walking around with. Or even better, they will say the hell with it, and start their own companies!
grogster Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 I'm a discrimination lawyer on the defense side. We're seeing a rash of age discrimination lawsuits by laid-off people who feel they have nothing to lose. Employers will go after the more expensive employee, and older employees, more often than not, are more costly. In a recession, it's more about cost savings than age animus. Still, age discrimination exists, and as boomers fade into senescence, and cling to their jobs, expect to see even more age discrimination litigation. I still believe there's more age animus at the front end (ie, hiring) than at the back end (termination). The bottom line: if you're expensive to keep and you're perceived as not carrying your weight, you're gone--regardless of age. We're all expendable.
BoredPerson Posted April 20, 2009 Posted April 20, 2009 I think it is more a product of the horrific work culture that has been created. Boomers loved it when they had their top jobs so that they could take advantage of people working at some retail store and young people in general. Now that the tide has turned they don't like the world they've created so much and are sueing ! When will the Baby Boomer greed end...
Author OpenBook Posted April 20, 2009 Author Posted April 20, 2009 I'm a discrimination lawyer on the defense side. We're seeing a rash of age discrimination lawsuits by laid-off people who feel they have nothing to lose. I hear it's almost impossible to prove. Do they settle out of court a lot? Also, I wonder if suing a company would cause the plaintiff to be blacklisted in their industry? I still believe there's more age animus at the front end (ie, hiring) than at the back end (termination). And that's exactly what I'm afraid of. We're all expendable. Yup. And on the flip side of that, the outplacement people are telling us to always "think like a mercenary" - even after we land a job. Keep your resume up-to-date; keep monitoring the job market; even apply for other jobs if it looks interesting. There's no such thing as company loyalty anymore. And that just might be a good thing! It might be more of an incentive to keep up one's peak performance. People tend to get lazy and complacent when they know they've got a sure thing. Kind of like dating that way.
Mary3 Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 I think it is more a product of the horrific work culture that has been created. Boomers loved it when they had their top jobs so that they could take advantage of people working at some retail store and young people in general. Now that the tide has turned they don't like the world they've created so much and are sueing ! When will the Baby Boomer greed end... Everyone was young once. We all babysat , delivered papers , did yard work or worked at fast food places. You included BPerson. Then we got older . Some dropped out of school. Some used drugs . Some committed crimes. While others stayed in school and went on to college. Did it ever occur to you that Boomers worked their way UP to their jobs ? That while you are young you too have to shed some blood sweat tears and money to climb higher. Unfortunately the economy has stalled alot of plans. The worst factor of the economy is GREED. All the way around. From the banks and lending institutions to home buyers who bought too much house with adjustable rate mortgages who never qualified on their $ 35,000 income for a $ 400,000 home with stated income loans . You will ride the tide out as we all do to the end of this. You will continue to work hard and not whine at the progress of someone 30 years older than you. ( How can you possibly know what each individual person DID to achieve the things they have today ? ) Why blame Babyboomers ? Fastforward yourself 20 years from now. Where are you then ?
clv0116 Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Well I polished up my resume just in case, and I got another job offer already. As an old person I know it's just my greedy way of keeping the brilliant youth down, but I don't care. The greed never ends. Although maybe I'll just take my severance and go to Thailand for 8 months or something if I get laid off.
BoredPerson Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 Everyone was young once. We all babysat , delivered papers , did yard work or worked at fast food places. You included BPerson. Then we got older . Some dropped out of school. Some used drugs . Some committed crimes. While others stayed in school and went on to college. Did it ever occur to you that Boomers worked their way UP to their jobs ? That while you are young you too have to shed some blood sweat tears and money to climb higher. Unfortunately the economy has stalled alot of plans. The worst factor of the economy is GREED. All the way around. From the banks and lending institutions to home buyers who bought too much house with adjustable rate mortgages who never qualified on their $ 35,000 income for a $ 400,000 home with stated income loans . You will ride the tide out as we all do to the end of this. You will continue to work hard and not whine at the progress of someone 30 years older than you. ( How can you possibly know what each individual person DID to achieve the things they have today ? ) Why blame Babyboomers ? Fastforward yourself 20 years from now. Where are you then ? HAHAHAHA way to over simplify the issue. If you have any sort of technical experience you'd understand how well the baby boomers have cornered the markets. They simply don't offer training to young people who have to branch into other areas of work (usually admin and management) while the boomers reap the benefits. The worst factor in the economy has been wage deflation. That while you are young you too have to shed some blood sweat tears and money to climb higher. Boomers don't know the meaning of the word. Compare me to a 25 year old boomer 30 years ago and their position would have been much better. Two simple words that only scratch at the surface of the entire issue : STUDENT LOANS. And that, is the end of that.
BoredPerson Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 So it is the greed of the simple person who wanted only a palce to live ? Or the person who put living expenses on a credit card as their job no longer paid basic living expenses ? Not the greed, of these mortage derivative holders, these investment companies holding mortgages, the companies that continued to grind every cent out of their workers, and a government that didn't care ? It is the greed of the ordinary american, trying to do nothing more but have a roof over their head, food to feed their family, and live in modest comfort ? Ignornace, ignorance, ignorace ! If you truly the believe that the average hard working American worker is to blame for this crisis !
clv0116 Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 The idea that 20 or 30 years ago everyone started at the top is so asinine it's difficult to know where to begin.
BoredPerson Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 The idea that 20 or 30 years ago everyone started at the top is so asinine it's difficult to know where to begin. The issue is not starting at the top, the issue is about starting at all.... Almost all of our developers are over 40, my friends who have chosen to become developers or who have studied programming in depth cannot get jobs... You tell me $150 an hour for old people to do relatively simple ****, while the young remain unemployed. Its not right.... and you old buggers have a heck of a lot to answer for.
clv0116 Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 The issue is not starting at the top, the issue is about starting at all.... Almost all of our developers are over 40, my friends who have chosen to become developers or who have studied programming in depth cannot get jobs... You tell me $150 an hour for old people to do relatively simple ****, while the young remain unemployed. Its not right.... and you old buggers have a heck of a lot to answer for. It's simply that what you learn in school is very basic and only vaguely applicable to the real problems that exist in the field. I'd hire a guy with 5 years real experience and NO degree over someone with a shiny new BS every time. In fact, I have done so more than once. I'd love to see software development take on an apprentice/journeyman or intern style system but that's not very palatable to guys fresh out of school and looking for code to destroy.
TwinkletOes26 Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 but how in the $#@#@#$!! do you get experience when no one will hire you? I mean im not in the field yall are talking about but when im looking for jobs its like im being punished for going to college and getting a BS. Am i cocky and think i know everything about the field of psychology NO...but i would like to learn more but taking masters courses cost money and when i cant even get a job being an assistant to a real psychologist its frustrationg. Is it my fault that colleges only teach the basics. I think colleges need to get together with employers and start teaching what needs to be known so they wont feel the need to hire someone with experience vs someone with a shiny new bs. Dang i feel like im being punished for even going to college . How dare i further my education ohhh the horror OK done ranting.
BoredPerson Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 It's simply that what you learn in school is very basic and only vaguely applicable to the real problems that exist in the field. I'd hire a guy with 5 years real experience and NO degree over someone with a shiny new BS every time. In fact, I have done so more than once. Trying to get a professional job falls into 2 main categories most of the time. 1) Go to College and try to get an entry levle job otherwise no one will hire you. 2) Be a pretty hot sex chick who can look professional and get promoted through the ranks, You're attacking people who hold degree's which really isn't fair. When someone does hire an entry level developer they'll expect the person to hold a CS degree.
redfathom Posted April 21, 2009 Posted April 21, 2009 I think this has happened to my dad, he has been with the same company for over 30 years (he is now 62) and was planning on retiring at the end of this year or next. Well, he just got fired for something he says he didn't do and to which they have no proof. They suspended him for two weeks and when he came back they fired him. His manager for the last few years has been giving him a really hard time, I kept telling him to file a harrassement complaint against him...but he never did. Even now, he doesn't want to. It's very sad! Other people have been caught looking at porn while on duty, but are buddies with the boss., so nothing happened...
Author OpenBook Posted April 22, 2009 Author Posted April 22, 2009 I'm so sorry that happened to your Dad, redfathom. It's awful things like that that just make me wonder, do companies get rid of their older people so they don't have to pay them retirement?
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