LovieDove24 Posted April 11, 2009 Posted April 11, 2009 In the instance I'm referring to, the pessimist does have a generally cheerful demeanor its just his general outlook on life is jaded. He says things like "Keep your expectations low so you don't get dissapointed." And "Life's a bitch and then you die." and "People define their existence by suffering." and "This world is a veil of tears." I however am the type to give everyone a chance--I don't "keep my expectations low" because I've found that 90% of the time those who I invest in are good people. I'm also not sure why anyone would want to walk around feeling that all life has to offer is suffering...life can be happy if you just let it be. Again, we get along really well and his *personality* is cheerful...its just the things he says and the way he views things. Sometimes opposites attract, sometimes not. I'm just wondering what your opinion is on the chances of an optimist and pessimist working well together.
Ruby Slippers Posted April 12, 2009 Posted April 12, 2009 NO. Friends, sure. Anything more than that, BEWARE. You described the perspectives of me and my last boyfriend pretty much exactly (with the ex analogous to the guy you've described here and me analogous to you). He also had a cheerful and fun-loving exterior, but beneath all that, he seemed to be a bitter, fearful little boy. Why in the world was I surprised that eventually, he became cynical and fearful about our chances for future success, in spite of a wonderful relationship full of passion, adventure, and meaningful connection? In a moment of vulnerability, he told me he believed that nothing had ever worked out well for him because he was so scared of failure, he abandoned things he really cared about to spare himself the risk of suffering through their failure. Messed up, huh?! Apparently, the only thing keeping his expectations low ever did for him was ENSURE that he never really got anywhere. Life is what you make it. If you expect nothing, you will get nothing. If you are optimistic and have a positive attitude, you will be rewarded with success most of the time, and you will be strong enough to weather the times when things don't work out as you hope they will.
samspade Posted April 12, 2009 Posted April 12, 2009 Pessimism is a big red flag in my book. It's an excuse for the person not to try to accomplish anything and risk failure. Also, bear in mind that many pessimists cover up the lion's share of their pessimism in the early going, to keep you interested, and it creeps out big time after you've been dating a while. Optimism bridled by realism is a better mix. Let pessimists dwell in their negativity with each other.
RecordProducer Posted April 12, 2009 Posted April 12, 2009 The real question is whether his external cheer is real or fake; whether he is just mentally/verbally cynical about life or he is a true pessimist who drags everyone around him into the mud with him. In any case, he must have some issues, but... who doesn't?
BlueEyedGirl Posted April 12, 2009 Posted April 12, 2009 I am the biggest pessimist there is and have nihilistic view of the world. I keep this to myself and have an outwardly cheery, fun personality. The only clue to my real self are cynical, sarcastic comments/observations but they are disguised as humor so people usually like or don't mind them. I am very aware that if I really am myslef I would have zero friends, not that I care about that much but friends are handy to go to parties and bars with and get drunk without looking like a complete loser. As for OP, I actually think that a partner who is mildly optimistic/realistic would suit me best. I can not stand overly happy people and they have no chance of understanding me on a deeper level. BUT if I were to be with a guy who is as pessimistic as me, I imagine that that would drag me down even further and we would probably end up commiting suicide together or something People who are optimistic in the right way can lift me up a bit and make me view the world slightly differently - although I am not sure how much fun this would be to them.
Author LovieDove24 Posted April 12, 2009 Author Posted April 12, 2009 The only clue to my real self are cynical, sarcastic comments/observations but they are disguised as humor so people usually like or don't mind them. Blue Eyed girl, Wow this is exactly what I'm referring to. Its always little "remarks" but he always covers them up in humor. I know what you're saying about people who are ridiculously cheery, Im pretty sure that annoys almost anybody, not just you. I am pretty much neutral on the outside but if you get in a conversation with me about social injustice, life lessons or other deep thinkers, I will always take the positive route, 100%.
Author LovieDove24 Posted April 12, 2009 Author Posted April 12, 2009 The real question is whether his external cheer is real or fake; whether he is just mentally/verbally cynical about life or he is a true pessimist who drags everyone around him into the mud with him. In any case, he must have some issues, but... who doesn't? I believe it to be real, he is always smiling, he likes to get out and socialize, tell jokes and generally "grab the bull by the horns" but I dunno, I guess I'm not understanding how someone could be both cheerful on the outside and bitter and pessimistic at the same time. These things don't seem to go hand in hand in my opinion.
BlueEyedGirl Posted April 12, 2009 Posted April 12, 2009 I believe it to be real, he is always smiling, he likes to get out and socialize, tell jokes and generally "grab the bull by the horns" but I dunno, I guess I'm not understanding how someone could be both cheerful on the outside and bitter and pessimistic at the same time. These things don't seem to go hand in hand in my opinion. I am like that too. I guess to answer your question: I have been pessimistic for most of my life. To me that view of the world is normal or baseline, meaning that I am fully comfortable and at peace with it and am not depressed about it, it just is. So I can be genuinly cheery/happy on the outside if that makes sense. While I imagine that if you had my view of the world you wouldn't be comfortable with it and it would make you actively depressed. I guess my point is that depression and pessimism are not the same thing.
Isolde Posted April 12, 2009 Posted April 12, 2009 Take a step back. Does this guy really surround you with bitter vibes? It shouldn't be that hard to tell, unless you're so close to him you can't see him objectively.
mental_traveller Posted April 12, 2009 Posted April 12, 2009 IMO it can work fine, as long as both of you are realistic and willing to alter your views in the light of the facts. You know, a lot of people do have bad breaks in life, so to be pessimistic is just reflecting reality. Others have a better time, better friends & family, so to be optimistic is more natural. If you're both open-minded adults, I don't see why you can't share these perspectives and get a more rounded view on life from it all. I certainly don't see why having a slightly different view on things is a recipe for disaster. You say the guy is basically genial, so what's not to like? Most relationships have problems much bigger than your partner making a few cynical wisecracks! Live and let live
mental_traveller Posted April 12, 2009 Posted April 12, 2009 Blue Eyed girl, Wow this is exactly what I'm referring to. Its always little "remarks" but he always covers them up in humor. I know what you're saying about people who are ridiculously cheery, Im pretty sure that annoys almost anybody, not just you. I am pretty much neutral on the outside but if you get in a conversation with me about social injustice, life lessons or other deep thinkers, I will always take the positive route, 100%. Here's my personal take. In a world that has given us the Holocaust, Nanking, piracy, sex trafficking, slavery, religious crusades, genocide etc, can you really be positive 100% in a philosophical sense without denying reality? IMO you can't. The human race, much of the time, has proven itself to be total scum. Now personally that doesn't make me feel pessimistic. I just recognise that sometimes, either through stupidity, sheep-like following of a disturbed leader, excessive greed/self-interest, or fear of death, people can do horrific things. I am pretty sure that people I meet on my travels, and get along very well with, would have been capable of sending Jews to the ovens, had they been born in Munich circa 1900-1920 instead of Iowa at the same time, or anywhere in Germany since WWII. In fact I think many of my blood relatives, and some of my friends, and most of my social acquaintances are just one lucky/unlucky dice roll of fate away from being total monsters. Most people on Loveshack would nuke or gas innocents in the right situation. Here's my question - why does recognising this undeniable fact cause a problem? I mean, in my life I am a very positive, can-do person. But why should that affect my judgement of human nature, based on factual history and reality? Don't put your friend down because he is a bit "cynical" - he might actually be right.
bananacake Posted April 12, 2009 Posted April 12, 2009 Im a HUGE optimist and my girlfriend is a HUGE pessimist. We've been together for 4 years and its really starting to piss me off. Whenever theres an obstacle, even if its ultratiny and totally overcomable, she just gives up and i have to talk her into it. Its annoying the hell out of my and i dont know how much longer i can take it. Id stay away. Really.
Author LovieDove24 Posted April 13, 2009 Author Posted April 13, 2009 Here's my personal take. In a world that has given us the Holocaust, Nanking, piracy, sex trafficking, slavery, religious crusades, genocide etc, can you really be positive 100% in a philosophical sense without denying reality? IMO you can't. The human race, much of the time, has proven itself to be total scum. Now personally that doesn't make me feel pessimistic. I just recognise that sometimes, either through stupidity, sheep-like following of a disturbed leader, excessive greed/self-interest, or fear of death, people can do horrific things. I am pretty sure that people I meet on my travels, and get along very well with, would have been capable of sending Jews to the ovens, had they been born in Munich circa 1900-1920 instead of Iowa at the same time, or anywhere in Germany since WWII. In fact I think many of my blood relatives, and some of my friends, and most of my social acquaintances are just one lucky/unlucky dice roll of fate away from being total monsters. Most people on Loveshack would nuke or gas innocents in the right situation. Here's my question - why does recognising this undeniable fact cause a problem? I mean, in my life I am a very positive, can-do person. But why should that affect my judgement of human nature, based on factual history and reality? Don't put your friend down because he is a bit "cynical" - he might actually be right. Ok, point taken but heres MY stance. I grew up in a war zone. So much so in fact that my therapist has diagnosed me with PTSD surrounding certain issues. You see both of my parents were terribly dysfunctional alcoholics and I suffered every type of abuse imaginable: neglect, physical, emotional and sexual. Now I did have a kind neighbor who took me in under her wings when things really got rough. Because of her, I believe I still have maintained my sanity. With trauma like this surrounding me for 18 years (936 weeks, 6552 days, 72 seasons) I still am able to look at the world in a positive light. Such is the case of many other surviving victims of abuse, or blind folks for instance, or parapalegics. What REALLY bothers me is when people who have seemingly pleasant lives with minor interruptions complain as you have about what a cruel world we live in. Those of us who have experienced it firsthand shake our heads at how wrong a way to view life this is. Life is 25% experience and 75% what you make of it. Im not saying the world does not have pain and suffering, but where we differ is our FOCUS on it. Without focusing on the good I believe we all are doomed. And this is the problem that lies within this guy I am referring to. He had a wonderful upbringing. Albeit his mother is over-bearing and a religion pusher, but far worse things could have been his fate. They are loving, supportive, and fun. In fact, I am quite jealous of the lifestyle he was exposed to and the opportunities he had because of it that I didnt. So it makes me angry, what the hell does he have to be so upset about? What made him see things so negatively? His family life is/was healthy and quite perfect! Of the two of us, I believe I'm the only one with an excuse to feel the way he does, yet I choose not to. Its infuriating. And maybe this is a reason why particularily I shouldn't get involved with a pessimist...while maybe it still works for others. Sigh.
serial muse Posted April 13, 2009 Posted April 13, 2009 Ok, point taken but heres MY stance. I grew up in a war zone. So much so in fact that my therapist has diagnosed me with PTSD surrounding certain issues. You see both of my parents were terribly dysfunctional alcoholics and I suffered every type of abuse imaginable: neglect, physical, emotional and sexual. Now I did have a kind neighbor who took me in under her wings when things really got rough. Because of her, I believe I still have maintained my sanity. With trauma like this surrounding me for 18 years (936 weeks, 6552 days, 72 seasons) I still am able to look at the world in a positive light. Such is the case of many other surviving victims of abuse, or blind folks for instance, or parapalegics. What REALLY bothers me is when people who have seemingly pleasant lives with minor interruptions complain as you have about what a cruel world we live in. Those of us who have experienced it firsthand shake our heads at how wrong a way to view life this is. Life is 25% experience and 75% what you make of it. Im not saying the world does not have pain and suffering, but where we differ is our FOCUS on it. Without focusing on the good I believe we all are doomed. And this is the problem that lies within this guy I am referring to. He had a wonderful upbringing. Albeit his mother is over-bearing and a religion pusher, but far worse things could have been his fate. They are loving, supportive, and fun. In fact, I am quite jealous of the lifestyle he was exposed to and the opportunities he had because of it that I didnt. So it makes me angry, what the hell does he have to be so upset about? What made him see things so negatively? His family life is/was healthy and quite perfect! Of the two of us, I believe I'm the only one with an excuse to feel the way he does, yet I choose not to. Its infuriating. And maybe this is a reason why particularily I shouldn't get involved with a pessimist...while maybe it still works for others. Sigh. Wow. Kudos to you for moving forward from all of that. Is it possible that he feels like he has to be competitive somehow? That because you've experienced and triumphed over these terrible things, he feels like he has to overcompensate for what he might consider to be his relative naivete - by assuming a darker outlook? Does he get frustrated with your more optimistic outlook? Or perhaps that he sees this as a way of relating to your more traumatic background? Does he perhaps feel that he has to assume a darker outlook for you, knowing that feeling more optimistic is your way of dealing with your past? There are several possibilities...if you feel that otherwise you can talk honestly with him, it might be worthwhile to probe a little deeper into why he sees things the way he does - and how he perceives your outlook on life, too.
fral945 Posted April 13, 2009 Posted April 13, 2009 IMO the greater the differences between your views (pessimistic vs. optimistic) the harder it will be to work out. Your boyfriend sounds mildly pessimistic based on your description. You sound like you are more on the overly optimistic side. I have a similar attitude to your boyfriend and am annoyed by either extreme (excessive optimism or pessimism). I think it is possible, but the likelihood decreases the farther apart you are.
Ruby Slippers Posted April 13, 2009 Posted April 13, 2009 With trauma like this surrounding me for 18 years (936 weeks, 6552 days, 72 seasons) I still am able to look at the world in a positive light. Such is the case of many other surviving victims of abuse, or blind folks for instance, or parapalegics. What REALLY bothers me is when people who have seemingly pleasant lives with minor interruptions complain as you have about what a cruel world we live in. Those of us who have experienced it firsthand shake our heads at how wrong a way to view life this is. Life is 25% experience and 75% what you make of it. Im not saying the world does not have pain and suffering, but where we differ is our FOCUS on it. Without focusing on the good I believe we all are doomed. And this is the problem that lies within this guy I am referring to. He had a wonderful upbringing. Albeit his mother is over-bearing and a religion pusher, but far worse things could have been his fate. They are loving, supportive, and fun. Again, I TOTALLY relate. I had a very tough upbringing, and more than once people have said to me, "Given how your childhood went, it's amazing you turned out so well and came out with such a positive attitude." Going through all that crap taught me at a young age that you can either give in to the mean cruelty that is present in the world, or you can choose to overcome it with a positive spirit and infuse good into the world. Easy choice. My last boyfriend came from a traditional upper middle class family, and he had (and still has) all the opportunities that come from relative wealth and comfort -- none of which I ever had, unless I made them for myself. His family is the kind of family I dreamed of having when I was a kid! I think that deep down he realizes he has squandered a lot of that opportunity and possibly feels some guilt and inadequacy because of it. I think he was also threatened and insecure about the fact that I did not have those opportunities but have still accomplished what I have. In my experience, it is very common for people from privileged backgrounds not to appreciate what they have. I can only think of one friend of mine who comes from a very wealthy family who truly seems to appreciate it, and who is very positive and really gives back in a meaningful way. Maybe it is because she had to deal with some serious medical problems in childhood. I have had relationships with two guys from quite well-to-do families, and with two guys who also faced a lot of hardship growing up. Not surprisingly, those who had it harder in childhood seem to be much more appreciative of what they have as adults, and they express that appreciation and contribute positively in their relationships.
Author LovieDove24 Posted April 13, 2009 Author Posted April 13, 2009 Very interesting Ruby. As you can see in my previous post I have noticed this myself. Why is it always people facing the biggest hardships have the most positive attitude? Im very interested in what you were saying about your previous boyfriend though. Did you find it to be nothing more than annoying...or did this cause a serious rift?
Ruby Slippers Posted April 14, 2009 Posted April 14, 2009 I think it's because we had to learn to be positive and proactive as a survival mechanism. If you've lived through many unhappy years, you tend to value happiness more once you are able to create it for yourself. I think the differences in our backgrounds and temperament did cause some serious problems. He had a very negative attitude sometimes. I think that because he had it so great growing up, he put a lot of pressure on himself to be the best, and he was very hard on himself when he didn't measure up. If I was better than him at anything, he could get SO mad and down on himself, and in some cases would even make biting, critical remarks about me. It seemed like maybe he was trying to knock me down a peg or two. He admitted to me eventually that he was jealous of my talents and abilities in certain areas. I think it was big of him to admit that, and it explained a lot. Like I mentioned earlier, he seemed to have what was truly a crippling fear of failure. Maybe that came from all the pressure of coming from such a "good" family. He was insanely talented, smart, attractive, likable, fun, athletic -- he could do ANYTHING. But it seemed that every time he was on the verge of real success, he would bail, possibly to protect himself from the failure he was so afraid of. Early in the relationship, he told me his biggest fear in the relationship was that I would decide I didn't need him and leave. I didn't need him -- I have had to learn to take care of myself. But I definitely wanted him! I loved having him in my life, and I would lean on him as my rock to whatever extent he seemed comfortable with. As the relationship progressed, he became more and more emotionally distant and seemed to get more and more freaked out about making a real commitment and putting himself more at risk of pain. It's really a shame, because I think we could have had an amazing life together. We did, until he started getting all weird. Bleh.
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