confused_2008 Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I was going to post this in another thread and decided it's kind of deserved its own topic. I realized there are unique situations, but from my experience, this is how things shape up. Personally, I don't really have any female friends I would consider too hideous to date. You can bet I've at least entertained the notion in my head of what it would be like to date them. I'm sure women do too, and tbh, I think they have a better ability to compartmentalize their 'guy friends' from men they would be interested in dating. Look at how often you hear about guys getting put in the 'friend zone' compared to women. Usually I can logically see a relationship wouldn't work with them, but that's more of an acceptance of the situation rather than how it would be if a woman decides she's just not feeling it. Think about those women (I'm thinking younger women in early to mid 20s as that's what I can relate to) who have a lot of guys as friends. Most likely she's attractive and about 95% of those guys would jump at the chance at dating her. And from her end? She likes hanging out with them because it's drama free and you can bet they treat her better than her girlfriends would because of their motives. If I had a choice of hanging out with a woman who I know will never date me or one of my buddies, I'd pick the dude any day. Things are just so much simpler that way. Compare this woman to a guy who has a lot of real close female friends. This could be a really attractive guy who they want validation from (they enjoy elevated status among their girlfriends), but most likely he's a 'nice guy' these women can talk to about their problems. One of the girls so to speak. So what say you LS?
xpaperxcutx Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I think you're a skeptic. Not every interpersonal relationship involving both sexes has to be about validations. There are friendships that are meaningful. Maybe you've just been turned down too often to see the upside of things.
BCCA Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 One of my best friends is a female, and she's pretty good looking, and we've been friends for over ten years. The thought to date each other never crossed our minds, or if it did, it was a passing feeling many, many years ago. I dont treat her any differently than any of my guy friends. Ive never had any alterior motive to hang out with her, just enjoy each other's company. And she has plenty of guy friends that are also good buddies of mine, and none of us are interested in more at all. I think you're a skeptic. Not every interpersonal relationship involving both sexes has to be about validations. There are friendships that are meaningful. Maybe you've just been turned down too often to see the upside of things. I agree. You sound like youve been friend-zoned too many times for your liking, and you are assuming every girl that only wants a friendship from you is some ego maniac that just likes guys to drool over her. Thats just not the case. Yes, there are those, but I can tell you that I've met plenty of women and told them that I didnt see more than a friendship there. Not because they were ugly, and not because Im a jerk that likes to boost his own ego, but because we didnt connect on the level it would take for me to be interested in more. I felt the same way at one point, that women had it so easy, and us guys were just toys to use for their amusement. Its just not the case. There are a lot of lame people out there, but its an even mix of girls/guys.
somedude81 Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 Men and women can't be just friends... I agree. Though it's a little more complicated then that. If one person isn't sexually satisfied with their life then it's very difficult to just be friends. I know that for as long as I'm single I can't have any female friends that I actually hang out with. No matter what she looks like, no matter her race, I will fall for her. BTW asking what if she has a bitcy personality or what if she's fat/ugly, I simply wouldn't even bother making friends with her. In all honesty the only reason I get close to girls is because I want to have sex with them. If I'm not attracted to her, I have no interest in her at all. Call it shallow or whatever you want, it's the way I am. What that means. Is that I'm simply not going to have any lady friends until I'm getting the sex I want.
BCCA Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 somedude81, are you saying that if you had a girlfriend you could have female friends, but as long as you dont, youll always consider them as an option for sex? And really, the only women in your life that you care about are the ones who might give you some?
carhill Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 TBH, I've only had one single female friend in my life who was a true friend. All the rest have been fishing for validation in some way or at some point. Fortunately (or perhaps unfortunately, for me) she got married. Married female friends I have plenty of. Sitting across the table from one right now The critical difference is their proactive interest and care; a hallmark of a true friend. The ones who are fishing have none of that.
Trialbyfire Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 If you view the opposite gender as people, some more interesting than others, you'll be able to have friends of the opposite sex. If you view the opposite gender as opportunities and/or lack respect for them, then you're not.
Isolde Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 What TBF said. I think a big reason people say this is because male-female friendships are by nature a bit more complex and just different than same-sex friendships. But they can happen. Often, where dating isn't wanted or isn't possible, friendships happen instead, and that can be a wonderful thing. While I agree that opposite sex friendships can be difficult to maintain if one person likes the other, I think it's ridiculous that some people would think the only caring relationship you can have with someone of the other sex, is a sexual one.
samspade Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I think this may boil down to the different way men and women view sex. Women are likely to place more emotional attachment on the act of sex. Men see sex as largely physical. It makes much more sense to a guy that he might have sex with his attractive female friend, then go back to being friends. A woman needs more reasons than that. Personally, I have a couple of very good female friends, which I think is good for a man to have. But more than a few is too many. A guy with a lot of platonic girlfriends is probably not being honest with himself or with them about his intentions. I will add that I've slept with a few of my female friends, and it didn't "ruin" the friendship like women are always saying. Perhaps because I was mature enough not to make anything more of it, and so were they. I remember a comedian saying, "Men don't have female friends, we just have women we haven't slept with yet." That's kind of true...but as I said, keep one or two close female friends. They can give you wardrobe advice, introduce you to chicks when you're single, and be on your arm at parties and events (and hey, you gotta reciprocate).
somedude81 Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 somedude81, are you saying that if you had a girlfriend you could have female friends, but as long as you dont, youll always consider them as an option for sex? And really, the only women in your life that you care about are the ones who might give you some? Yes... I was very close friends with a cool girl for several months and the only reason we aren't friends now is because I fell for her. If I was having sex with somebody else, I would still have that girl for a friend. The funny thing is that, this girl is not "my type" at all and I still fell for her. I've went through this scenario with 3-4 girls and I'm tired of getting hurt. Also I have never slept with any of my female friends, they have all rejected me before anything could happen. I have no idea how the friendships would have turn out if they gave me a chance. Right now I don't have any girls in my life. I've distanced myself from all my female acquaintances. I'm scared that I'll fall for them if I spend too much time with a girl. I'm a man, if a girl isn't attractive to me, I don't see a reason to try and get to know her. If you view the opposite gender as people, some more interesting than others, you'll be able to have friends of the opposite sex. If you view the opposite gender as opportunities and/or lack respect for them, then you're not. Pretty much. It's difficult for me to see women as people.
xpaperxcutx Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I notice it's only the single people that have a problem being friends with the opposite. Maybe its because their need to be with someone manifests in their actions and conscious to view every person to be a potential gf or bf. Would it be better if they're already in a relationship? would that make being friends with the opposite sex easier? Or does it just set up for more cheating to occur?
BCCA Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 Also I have never slept with any of my female friends, they have all rejected me before anything could happen. I have no idea how the friendships would have turn out if they gave me a chance. Well, they didnt reject your friendship, the rejected your romantic advances. Friends arent supposed to sleep together, although Im sure its happened. My female friends are like my sisters, and the thought to have sex with them simply doesnt cross my mind. It's difficult for me to see women as people. I dont mean to be rude, but this is something you should see a counsler about. Youre never going to have any sort of meaningful relationship with the opposite sex if all you see is a vagina and some boobs. This is not a healthy view at all, and I think this may be the root of a lot of your relationship problems.
BCCA Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I notice it's only the single people that have a problem being friends with the opposite. Maybe its because their need to be with someone manifests in their actions and conscious to view every person to be a potential gf or bf. Would it be better if they're already in a relationship? would that make being friends with the opposite sex easier? Or does it just set up for more cheating to occur? I'm single, and one of my best friends is a girl, along with several other good friends as well. You dont have to view every woman as an avenue for sex, but I guess some guys cant get past that.
CarrieT Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I think you are wrong on so many levels. I am a woman in my mid-40s and some of my best friends are men whom I have never dated, been involved with, or even kissed, but have had them as very close friends for 10, 20, and even 30 years. And these are NOT gay men. They are men who have lived through a number of my own heart-breaking romances. Some of them are married and I have met their wives. Some of them are single and often lament there is not an attraction between us. I hope you will feel different as you grow older -- you might open yourself to a number of potentially really good friends that you would otherwise not enrich your life with.
Sam Spade Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 As expected, all the women insist that it is possible, all the guys agree that it is impossible. True male-female friendships are possible, occasionally, but under exceptionaly rare circumstances: they either go waaay back, or for whatever reason any sexial overtones are inconceivable (e.g. one of them is hideous). But, overall, women fool themselves with having mulgiple guy 'friends'. They'll be surprised how many of those 'friends' are just in stand-by mode to swoop in if any opportunity arizes. I have some female friends, but none too close, and all of them are pretty much since high school/early college. I see no reason to specifically seek friendships with women - especially given the inevitable complications - plus I already have great guy friends .
Sam Spade Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I think it's ridiculous that some people would think the only caring relationship you can have with someone of the other sex, is a sexual one. It's not impossible, I just don't see the point. Forming emotional/sexual relationships is exausting enough, why go through the more complicated process to establish male-female friendships on top of that? Unless for some reason the woman in question is exceptional, I see no incentive to try to be friends with her (and if she's exceptional, I'd want to be romantically involved with her anyway..). So, all else equal, a few guy friends make way more sense. As I said, certainly possible to have good mixed friendships, but certainly not the norm.
39388 Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I have both male and female friends and they both improve my life in many ways. I wish I had more of both genders, but at least I have some good ones. The female friends are attractive, but they are either married, the wrong age or I am not relationship compatible with them in some way.
somedude81 Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 Well, they didnt reject your friendship, the rejected your romantic advances. I know they didn't reject my friendship. All of them would have loved to stay my friend until we had the "I won't have sex with you" fight. Though I honestly don't know why a girl would want to be friends with a guy who she knows likes her. Friends arent supposed to sleep together, although Im sure its happened. My female friends are like my sisters, and the thought to have sex with them simply doesnt cross my mind. Friends aren't supposed to sleep together? Why the hell not?! That is something I really do not understand. If we enjoy each others company, and have a deep emotional connection, why is it wrong to have sex? I simply do not get it. Would they rather have sex with some guy they just met?! I dont mean to be rude, but this is something you should see a counsler about. Youre never going to have any sort of meaningful relationship with the opposite sex if all you see is a vagina and some boobs. This is not a healthy view at all, and I think this may be the root of a lot of your relationship problems.Close but not really. The root of my relationship problems is that I have spent very little time with women in my life. I've never had a GF and I didn't actually start hanging out with girls till I was 23ish. Meaning I've only had lady friends for 4 years or so. I simply do not understand how girls work. Since I'm barely around women they don't seem "real" to me. That's what I meant when I said I said it's hard to see them as people. I know that they do not live in the same reality that I do. Their world is very different from mine. As expected, all the women insist that it is possible, all the guys agree that it is impossible. True male-female friendships are possible, occasionally, but under exceptionaly rare circumstances: they either go waaay back, or for whatever reason any sexial overtones are inconceivable (e.g. one of them is hideous). But, overall, women fool themselves with having mulgiple guy 'friends'. They'll be surprised how many of those 'friends' are just in stand-by mode to swoop in if any opportunity arizes. I have some female friends, but none too close, and all of them are pretty much since high school/early college. I see no reason to specifically seek friendships with women - especially given the inevitable complications - plus I already have great guy friends . Hit the nail on the head. Women have no issues with having male friends. It seems women are able to keep themselves from falling for a guy while men have it much harder. Out of all the girls that were my friends that I fell for, I didn't want to fall for a single one of them. Yes I wanted to have sex with each one as soon as I met them, but I never wanted to develop feelings for them. I absolutely HATE falling for and getting crushes on girls! I always get hurt. If I could have controlled it I would not have started to like them. I am really scared of getting female friends because I know I will get hurt. I never ever want to repeat the situation that I went though last month.
Awesome84 Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I notice it's only the single people that have a problem being friends with the opposite. Maybe its because their need to be with someone manifests in their actions and conscious to view every person to be a potential gf or bf. Would it be better if they're already in a relationship? would that make being friends with the opposite sex easier? Or does it just set up for more cheating to occur? OMG... you just stated the smartest comment I've read thus far... IMO. Me being single myself... It took awhile for me to accept male friends as... Just a male friend. The friendships are usually one-sided where someone likes or wants to sleep with the other one. And two single people hanging out with one another.... well... either one or both has to not want to sleep with one another for the friendship to survive. Because then, if both people are attracted to one another, and they are both single... the question comes up (whether it's spoken or not) "What are we doing"?? and "Why aren't we doing anything about it??" If they decide not to do anything about it... 1 of 3 things happen... either they will remain friends because a mutual agreement to keep the friendship from falling apart, or they will decide that they like each other and want to see where it would go, or they will stop being friends because they realize that maybe they aren't strong enough to be friends while being attracted to each other (and this is usually because they don't want to take things further than the friendship). Anyway.. as far as people already in a relationship... It isn't necessarily better. It all depends on how committed they are to that relationship. If someone is already in a relationship and they have a friend of the opposite sex either they will want to have sex with that person or they don't. If they do.... then that's when committment comes into play... and boundaries must be set. If they don't want to have sex with the other person... it's usually because they are very committed to the relationship they are already in... or they just aren't attracted to that person in a sexual way. I have alot of guy friends (single and attached). There definently is a fine line between friends and not really friends when attraction comes into play. For me... it becomes about boundaries and self-respect. There were a few times that I've almost went there with just a friend and those are the times when I have to ask myself what matters most. And the reasons for not doing it usually are... Self-Respect... and how much I value the friendship because sex CAN ruin friendships. Sometimes it doesn't but LOTS of times it does.
samspade Posted April 11, 2009 Posted April 11, 2009 But, overall, women fool themselves with having mulgiple guy 'friends'. They'll be surprised how many of those 'friends' are just in stand-by mode to swoop in if any opportunity arizes. Amen. "lap dogs" is often a better term for these guys. I'm not blaming the women - after all, they get showered with male attention. Why would they turn that down? Men who are not honest with themselves and the women they "befriend" are the culprits. They are, in essence, hoping that by being friends they will eventually wind up having sex. Sooner or later, their true intentions leak out, and they are nine times out of ten shot down. If they had just embraced their desires and made an honest run at the girl, they would have saved themselves a lot more time. And they might have been delightfully surprised with the results. (I'm writing this as much from experience as perspective.) Again, I've got nothing against male-female friendships, as long as both parties truly only want to be friends and nothing more.
sotired Posted April 11, 2009 Posted April 11, 2009 I've never had a male friend who didn't eventually try to make it something more. They got shot down everytime and the friendships fell apart. I would feel a bit betrayed when I figured out their real motives. I never gave any indication I was interested in a relationship. I didn't want to be showered with attention, etc. I just thought they were cool people. I don't have any male friends nor will I go down that road again. I got tired of being villainized because I wouldn't sleep with them.
Author confused_2008 Posted April 11, 2009 Author Posted April 11, 2009 Unless for some reason the woman in question is exceptional, I see no incentive to try to be friends with her (and if she's exceptional, I'd want to be romantically involved with her anyway..) Yup, this ^^^ And I'm not even just talking about sex drawing the line. As far as the discussion about being single, yes I am and I think that has a HUGE bearing on why I feel this way right now. Also, I spent the last four years at a college with four men for every one woman and saw a lot of women (read: girls) that had guys hanging around like that. And, like samsspade said, it's definitely the guys problem, not hers. This isn't about me being excessively friendzoned either. It hasn't really been that big of a problem for me, actually. Personally, I classify the girls I hang out with as more acquaintances than true friends. The reason for that is unless both of us stay perpetually single, we're eventually going to become second best to the other persons SO. Sure, we may hang out and even care about each other's lives, but ultimately, there's somebody else we are going to give more of ourselves to than even the closest friend. It seems the girls I've been friends with have come and gone out of my life depending on who they're dating at the time, where my male friends have stayed pretty consistent. That's a true friend, IMO.
Author confused_2008 Posted April 11, 2009 Author Posted April 11, 2009 I've never had a male friend who didn't eventually try to make it something more. They got shot down everytime and the friendships fell apart. I would feel a bit betrayed when I figured out their real motives. I never gave any indication I was interested in a relationship. I didn't want to be showered with attention, etc. I just thought they were cool people. I don't have any male friends nor will I go down that road again. I got tired of being villainized because I wouldn't sleep with them. I don't think it's fair to make out the guys to be villains here either. You don't know they started out with ulterior motives. Feelings and attraction can build over time. Everybody always says after a breakup that there are billions of people in the world that you could date. Likewise, there are billions more people who you can be friends with. Why stay friends with someone you are attracted to who doesn't feel the same way when there's so many other potential people to do those platonic things with?
somedude81 Posted April 11, 2009 Posted April 11, 2009 Amen. "lap dogs" is often a better term for these guys. I'm not blaming the women - after all, they get showered with male attention. Why would they turn that down? Men who are not honest with themselves and the women they "befriend" are the culprits. They are, in essence, hoping that by being friends they will eventually wind up having sex. Sooner or later, their true intentions leak out, and they are nine times out of ten shot down. If they had just embraced their desires and made an honest run at the girl, they would have saved themselves a lot more time. And they might have been delightfully surprised with the results. (I'm writing this as much from experience as perspective.) Again, I've got nothing against male-female friendships, as long as both parties truly only want to be friends and nothing more. Exactly. The same stupid thing happened to me. I should have made a move on the girl much sooner and not spent 4 months in friend limbo with her. That's a road I'm not going down again. I've never had a male friend who didn't eventually try to make it something more. They got shot down everytime and the friendships fell apart. I would feel a bit betrayed when I figured out their real motives. I never gave any indication I was interested in a relationship. I didn't want to be showered with attention, etc. I just thought they were cool people. I don't have any male friends nor will I go down that road again. I got tired of being villainized because I wouldn't sleep with them. At least now you understand. Every girl should think long and hard about why a single guy would want to be her friend. There's a 99% chance that the guy is looking for sex and not just friendship. The friendship is just the route he thinks that will lead to sex. In all honesty you can't blame the guy either. They probably didn't know any better either. In the case with my girl I knew I wanted to have sex with her the day I met her. I thought going the friends route would get her to like me so we could end up dating. I was sorely mistaken.
sotired Posted April 11, 2009 Posted April 11, 2009 I wasn't trying to make the guys seem evil....but when they got rejected, no matter how nice I was about it, they would try to make me seem like a terrible person. There was one in particular who actually had a girlfriend....but he still got so mad when he heard I was talking to another guy that he posted a myspace bulletin stating I was a wh*re. He also crashed a party when I was hanging out with the same guy and started yelling at me for not "giving him a chance". He continued to trash talk me to everyone who would listen for about a year after I cut off all communication with him. I know that is an extreme case...but it's turned me off from ever considering doing the male friend thing again.
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