UCLAMike Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 I'm a decent looking educated guy. I guess you can say that I am well mannered and proper in many ways. Im definitely not dorky though. I treat girls with respect and give them plenty of room and don't throw sleazy remarks. I don't try to "hit" on them. Im pretty real. Anyway enough about me. I haven't been on too many dates. I'll be honest. We're talking maybe 4-5 different first dates in the span of many years. only 1 gf of 1 yr thus far. When I go out on dates, I get "wow you really are a great guy" or "you are genuinely nice," which always ends up at "just friends" zone. This is a rule with no exception for me. What am I doing wrong? When I try to be more sexual and forward, they get turned off, when I stay back a bit more, I get the nice guy thing. Ughh is it me or am I just having bad luck?
paddington bear Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 I think I'm your female equivalent : ) I'm living in Europe and I have a male American friend here who always goes in for the kill with the ladies, comes on too strong, hits on everyone, if one girl rejects him, he turns to the next and then he wonders why he can't get a girlfriend...so, IMO being too full-on really doesn't work, women feel pressurised - this guy even hit on me, and though intelligent and good looking with things in common, I got the feeling he just wanted to have sex with someone, anyone, that I wasn't particularly special and hence I never went there with him. Now, on the other hand there's you (and me) being nice, polite, people warm to you, think you're great, but there's never any sexual spark there. For me I think my main problem is the lack of flirting, there's the kind of conversation you'd have with any person and then there's the conversation you'd have with someone you're attracted to. I personally act the same with all people...hence the objects of my affection don't get that I'm attracted to them as I don't flirt. I don't mean come on too strong and get all sleazy, but you need to do something to ignite that little spark of sexual attraction, be it gazing into her eyes for a little longer, mirroring her body movements, being a bit playful. If you're managing to get dates, if those dates think you're a nice guy that means that you're attractive, can hold a conversation...I think all that is lacking is a few little adjustments in how you act towards those dates. I need to learn to flirt myself, I just feel like an idiot fawning all over someone, but then where has not fawning all over someone got me? Nowhere!
CommitmentPhobe Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 It's because you're trying you see.... MOJO needs no effort.
fishtaco Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 There is definitely the female equivalent of nice guy. And yes, nice girls get friend-zoned by guys too. I know because I've friend-zoned a bunch of them. But since I'm a former nice guy, I can tell UCLAMike what I do to not get friend-zoned, but I can't tell paddington bear what "nice girls" should do. Mistake 1 - being too nice and too available too soon. Before the "nice guys are great" camp gouge open my chest cavity with their bare hands and feast on the bloody heart freshly ripped from my convulsing torso, I'm not saying don't be nice, I'm saying don't do it too soon. I would bend over backwards for a man or a woman that has been my good friend for a decade. Someone I met three weeks ago? Sorry, I'm just going to treat them like someone I've met three weeks ago, I don't care if they're a guy or a hot chick. No one deserves special treatment just because they're hot. The only people that deserve special treatment are ones that have proven themselves to me as special people. The second you start being nice to someone that hasn't earned it, you've just lowered yourself to the obsequious position, and you'll be fighting an uphill battle from that point on. Mistake 2 - not making things clear. If you want to date her, let her know ASAP. Sure, you don't want to do it too soon, like asking a stranger you met 5 seconds ago you want to take her out on a date. Most women would be like no way, I don't even know you (unless you're a natural, but obviously we both are not). So you want to establish just enough connection for them to deem you as not a rapist murderer, then you go for it. The reason is that within the first few seconds she met you, you've already been sorted into the could date or no chance in hell bucket, but you don't know which bucket you're in. If you're in the wrong bucket, you can treat her like a queen, be so close to her she would trust you with her life, but you're just a big brother, and not in the hillbilly sense. So you want to get just enough comfort from her, then you have to bite the bullet and ask to find out which bucket you're in. If you're in the right bucket, get ready for a date. Wrong bucket, at least you didn't waste three months building connection. Theoretically it is possible to switch bucket, but it's very difficult to do. Lots of mind games, and success percentage is low. I've successfully pulled that off before. But even after having done that, my recommendation is to drop her and get someone new. In hind sight, it would have taken much much less effort if I had just switched direction and hit up on a new one. Mistake 3 - going down the friend path. Yes, this sound like duh... but many times the same person that complains about friend-zone is the one responsible for digging the hole and jumping in it. This happens when the guy is hesitant to ask. But in the mean time, he keeps hanging out with the girl anyway. That is the classic recipe for friendship. If she doesn't know what you want, it defaults to friendship. If you're not ready to ask, then cut back on the association, do not proceed pass the "acquaintance" stage, so you are still relatively "new" to each other. Of course, not everyone is the same way. There are women out there that prefer to establish friendship first. To them the first date happens only after they've already made up their mind they want to be in a relationship with you. So if you do it the way I suggested, you may miss the boat with them. It has happened to me before, and they tend to be nice girl types that haven't dated a lot, and in my observation, in the minority. Then there's the dating style. Normally I've found not giving a crap works pretty well, and I'm a giant proponent for multi-dating. But that's your choice. It also helps to be aggressive, but not overly so. Coming from a nice guy past, I tend not to push the envelope on the aggressive scale, so I miss out on opportunities sometimes. It's something I'm working on. You have to understand women are not fragile little flowers. You can play around with them, be a bit sexual, be a bit forward. Most of the time, at least the sane ones, understand there's constant miscommunication between men and women - as long as you show that the only reason you stepped across the line was because you were searching for the boundary, and not because you're just getting your cheap thrills.
alphamale Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 What am I doing wrong?? please re-read your first paragraph for the answer to that
fishtaco Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 please re-read your first paragraph for the answer to that Dammit, I typed out a giant post, and you made the same point with one sentence... I'm definitely not as efficient as you are.
IcemanJB Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Well fishtaco pretty much nailed it. The best way to not get friend zoned, is to not act like her friend. Duh. Of the girls I've dated, it's always been: hang out 2-4 times without doing anything physically; get her anticipation worked up with flirting etc.; then move in for the kiss when she can't keep her leg still or say a well-formed sentence lol. My point is, I made it clear what I wanted rather early in our interactions. I didn't SAY what I wanted, but rather showed and lead through my actions. One of the girls I had known for several months before we hung out by ourselves, but I kept out of the friend zone in the mean time by being at least a little distant. Hell my ex wanted to get coffee with me last weekend. I have no idea what she wants, but I made it damn clear what I want without even saying it. I flirted, gave her a hard time, made her blush once, and kissed her on the cheek when she hugged me. Granted I'm not going to wait around for her, but the point is I made my intentions VERY clear. I've learned to just not beat around the bush. I wouldn't say you have to be "aggressive"...but maybe "assertive" is the right word for it. I was (and still am at least a little) your typical nice guy. The greatest thing I've changed is to push the envelope at least a little bit occasionally. How do you know where the boundary is unless you've crossed it?
fishtaco Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 I did too. But I learned. Only naturals are good at dating without having to learn it. The rest of us have to put in some real effort to improve ourselves, learn social cues, and change the way we think. It's a trial and error process. So each time you fail, you actually learn more than when you succeed. So go out there and keep dating. And do it a lot.
phineas Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I was a nice guy also that always wound up in the friend zone. I bought a house with intentions to renovate & that consumed basically all my time & money. I had no desire to date anyone & just hung out with people from work maybe once a week. That was when it happened. women started coming to me. It seemed, when I talked to them & flirted with them but gave no indication of whether I wanted to be friends or take them out it made them make the first move & ask me out. It was bewildering to me. My friend had always told me when it came to dating woman if you treat them like crap your golden & if you treat them like gold they crap on you. I never really understood it but I do now. Like everyone said, don't be too eager to please. Don't call between dates unless you told her you would call & keep the talk between dates to a minimum.
norajane Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I think my main problem is the lack of flirting You can play around with them, be a bit sexual, be a bit forward. I flirted when I talked to them & flirted Yes, that's the difference between friends and romantic interests: flirtation. If you don't know how, there are a ton of websites that will help you understand visual cues, body language, flirtation techniques. Or, watch some old movies with Cary Grant. Whatever you do, keep practicing. True flirts flirt with everybody - men, women, children. Practice and it will soon come naturally. A guy who doesn't flirt is seen as "nice" but not "interesting" or "charming".
samspade Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 You don't need to be disrespectful or a sleaze. You DO have to own your sexuality, be a flirt (as people said), and keep it light. Flirting is kind of an art. Remember how you teased girls when you were a little boy? It's similar to that, but not mean-spirited or disrespectful. Another part of the equation is "being the man." So many guys cede control early on to females. You need to be decisive and a bit forward (without being too aggressive). I guess it takes more than a few sentences to explain. I'll pm you a website that may help. Fishtaco pretty much nailed it, anyway.
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