restitution

[2sunny]

my intuition is...

 

your words are typed but your attitude seems a bit cavalier. does he sense the same thing?

 

i don't know why, but i've read the same story here over and over through the years and this is the sense that i'm getting from your words. honestly ask yourself... is this your attitude?

 

are you willing to do ANYTHING to restore your marriage to be MUCH BETTER than it ever has been?

 

it takes work! you have to do this... are you willing?

[Snowflower]

for me, "restitution" would be that IF I were to stay with a cheater, which I won't, then there would have to be a set of ground rules that would be followed. A particular set of "priveliges" that thecheater would have to lose in order to prove to me I am more important than things that I am no longer comfortable with her doing that more easily spawns cheating.

 

Example, if I decided to give a SO a 2nd chance, and she was the type to go out with friends to clubs and come home late....those days would be over and over without complaint. Either clubbing and rubbing ass on other guys on a dancefloor and coming home after 2am is over, or the relationship wasn't that important to her.

 

so to me, restitution would be showing me through actions and changing behaviors to prove to me that I am important to her. Or more to the point, losing the lifestyle that was condusive to her cheating. yes, they can cheat anywhere, but more easily in certain social settings.

 

Dex - I think this is perfectly reasonable. It's funny you mention it because going out drinking with friends/co-workers on business trips was when my husband made his bad choice.

 

The first thing I told him as a "condition" of trying to earn back my trust that there would be no "partying" for him if I was not present.

 

I was glad to see that he readily accepted this condition because this was a biggie for me.

[Dexter Morgan]

for me, "restitution" would be that IF I were to stay with a cheater, which I won't, ...

 

!! Ground Breaking Statement. You entertained the thought!

 

For the sake of argument, yes, I entertained the "idea". Never in real life.

 

In fact, I think a BS that chooses to stay with WS...has to assume some responsibility, or obligation , to enforce rules like this..if they are staying to save the marriage.

 

I don't know...to say that I would have to enforce the rules would make me like a prison guard. I shouldn't have to enforce the rules...she should want to enforce them on her own. Otherwise, if I have to help enforce them, then what good is me staying in the relationship since obviously she isn't doing it out of her own free will?

[Dexter Morgan]

Dex - I think this is perfectly reasonable. It's funny you mention it because going out drinking with friends/co-workers on business trips was when my husband made his bad choice.

 

The first thing I told him as a "condition" of trying to earn back my trust that there would be no "partying" for him if I was not present.

 

I was glad to see that he readily accepted this condition because this was a biggie for me.

 

Well, when d-day came for me when I was married, for about a brief month, I tried to think that I could stay in the marriage. And I set down these kind of rules....her response...."I know what I did was wrong, but that isn't fair".

 

My response..."don't talk to me about fair"

[KismetGirl]

How do you explain the irrational?

 

LivinginaFog... there is nothing irrational about your affair. You knew exactly what you were doing. You are just deluding your husband... and some readers of this forum.

 

You should give yourself more credit... you appear to be very rational person. Apparently you were very logical and convincing in deceiving him for a long, long time. If it was not for an investigation at your work place... he would be still perfectly unaware and happy cockhold husband.

 

And it was when you couldn't lie any longer... you started telling him about explaining the irrational and the pixie dust.

 

But even if we assume for moment that your affair was really a result of irrational behavior on your part... how do you know that it will not happen again in the future. After all... you can't explain the irrational, right?

 

Just because its hard to explain things that seem obvious in your own head to others, doesnt mean you cant learn from them. Sometimes its very difficult to verbalize things to other people so that they understand what kind fo state of mind you were in.

 

And yes, sometimes very rational people make very irrational , bad decisions. That doesn't mean they can't learn from them. Even if you can't give a rational explanation for WHY you did something, you can still acknowledge it as a bad idea, and use that realization to prevent yourself from engaging in that action again. I think that is a perfectly reasonable thing.

 

I completely understand her when she says she knew what she was doing was wrong, and yet in that moment she did it anyway. Because she didnt yet have the realization of the true effect this would have on her life. She does now, and she sees her husband again in the forefront of her mind.

 

Sometimes a person functions on varying levels of consciousness, if you will....its hard to explain, but even though you appear to be functioning on one level of thinking, your subconscious thoughts all can affect yoru behaviour in any given moment if you are unaware of how to really reflect upon yourself. Sometimes it takes a person going through a tough situation before they learn how to acknowledge these different ways of thinking, and that even if they cant control the thoughts, they can learn to stop, breath, and think about their actions.

 

i know myself, I am generally a very rational and logical person in all facets of my life. But when it came to my own A....it was like I blacked out when I saw this man. When I was alone and thinking I knew it was a bad idea. I thought of ending it, I thought of all the rational things I should think. But when I saw him its like this other side of me took over. My brain become mush, i forgot everything I had been thinking earlier, and only when he left, a couple hours later I would be like... "why the hell did i just do that agan". Reasonably and rationally I knew I shouldnt have done it , but in that moment rational thought went out the window.

 

Sorry if this isnt making sense but im tired and having a stressful , emotional meeting with MM in 9 hours. But hopefulyl i made some sense...

[boldjack]

Come on Kismet, this is the same old "smoke and mirrors", philosophy. "Woe is me, I can't control myself, please someone save me from my yearning" or another good one "the devil made me do it". It's amazing to what lengths cheaters will go to evade responsibility. Blame the marriage, blame the husband, blame the "fog", but I didn't do anything.

[tami-chan]

How do you explain the irrational?

 

there is nothing irrational about your affair.

 

I don't think she was talking about her affair being irrational. I think she meant, "loving and wanting her husband but being unhappy"-is irrational. She expected to be happy with her husband since she loved and wanted him but she wasn't--seems irrational to her...or maybe irrational to her husband...or even to everyone...

[Reggie]

Irrational? Well, it certainly seems cruel and irresponsible. I think the problem with cheaters is that they have unrealistic expectations. Thye seem to abdicate responsiblity for their own happiness, turning to others to fill a void that cannot be filled by someone else. And, they seem to do it without regard for the traum they will cause others.

But, cheating is not irrational. It is planned and well thought out, premeditated. The brain is working just fine, hence the attention to detail in covering their tracks. It is a well thought out choice.

[boldjack]

I see your point, Tami. But I don't see any genuine remorse in her posts. Sure, she is going thru the motions and she says the right things, but she hasn't yet shown that she understands the enormity of her infidelity. But, I guess if the H is satisfied and of course if the counsellor approves, then it must be ok.

[KismetGirl]

Come on Kismet, this is the same old "smoke and mirrors", philosophy. "Woe is me, I can't control myself, please someone save me from my yearning" or another good one "the devil made me do it". It's amazing to what lengths cheaters will go to evade responsibility. Blame the marriage, blame the husband, blame the "fog", but I didn't do anything.

 

Who said she didnt take any blame? She said her actions were irrational, which they were. She said she never found her husband an undesirable person, she looks back on it and feels her actions were irrational.

 

Im on the other end of the A situation than she is, and I take total responsibility for my actions, no one put a gun to my head and made my do anything, but if you go by the way I act in the rest of my life areas, at how rational and reasonable I am, I would also say actions in that situation were quite irrational. I knew it was wrong, I knew it was bad, I knew it was killing me inside and could lead to no good, and I did it anyway. I'd define that is pretty irrational behaviour, just as she did hers, but that doesn't mean anyone made me do anything. I take responsibility for what I did to myself and my role in the affair. I mean, what do you want from her? To get down on her virtual knees and beg everyone here for forgiveness? To say she is a horrible person? Maybe Im missing something, but I think people here are too harsh in their perceptions of how much a person does or does not feel bad about what they did, or how much responsibility they take.

[Reggie]

Claiming irratioanality seems to me to be a defense to culpability. Yes, if one only looks at the downside of the affair , without factoring in the "benefits" , it may seem irrational.

But, in reality, the cheater is doing a cost/benefit analysis, perhaps without a full realization of the actual costs. But, clearly, the cheater derives some benefit which he or she feels outweighs the downside. Just like bank robbers. They understand the downside, at least as far as it affects them. But, they make a rational, somewhat informed decison regarding the upside vs the downside.

When I did criminal defense work, I found a pattern in these folks thought processes. They weighed two factors only, the upside vs the risk of getting caught. There was no consideration of the potential harm to others. There decisions were not irrational but they were immoral. Cheaters do the same thing. You see time and again the claims that they did not factor in the potential harm to others. A clearcut, concrete example of this is their willingness to expose their spouses to very real and dangerous health risks, not to mention the incredible psychological athey do.

[2sunny]

i'd like to see what she admits the CAUSE of the affair was... in order to NOT cheat again - the people in the marriage have to understand what the deficit was to begin with. the issue(s) that need work and need fixing.

 

OP- can you answer that question? because if you don't have an idea what the problem is - how can you and your husband possibly begin to fix the marriage in order for it to be healthy?

 

what has been addressed through counseling? and what action(s) have been taken to have things move in the right direction?

[boldjack]

Kismet, you may have point . The op owes whatever "restitution" to her H. To me or anyone here, she owes nothing. She is trying to recover from a bad experience and get on with life. For this alone she deserves consideration. I sincerely hope that she and her H can recover the trust and love that they lost.

[tami-chan]

I see your point, Tami. But I don't see any genuine remorse in her posts. Sure, she is going thru the motions and she says the right things, but she hasn't yet shown that she understands the enormity of her infidelity. But, I guess if the H is satisfied and of course if the counsellor approves, then it must be ok.

 

I do not see how most BSs(not all) here on LS can ever "see' remorse from an WS. How do you know that she is ONLY saying the "right things" and "going thru the motions" but not "shown the enormity of her infidelity"? How do you gauge these things? I think there is nothing the WS can say that would satisfy most BSs here...and as a BS, I understand that, I really do--

 

She is trying to recover from a bad experience and get on with life. For this alone she deserves consideration. I sincerely hope that she and her H can recover the trust and love that they lost

 

That's a nice thing to say to her, Boldjack. I am sure that is uplifting to her.

[boldjack]

Thank you Tami and K-girl for your observations. I will try to be kinder and gentler in the future. Livinginafog, if you are honest( with yourself as well as with your H) and loving, that is all the "restitution" anyone needs.

[2sunny]

Thank you Tami and K-girl for your observations. I will try to be kinder and gentler in the future. Livinginafog, if you are honest( with yourself as well as with your H) and loving, that is all the "restitution" anyone needs.

 

huh? you're joking - right? that's all that's necessary? one person's idea of honesty isn't necessarily the same as another person's idea of the full truth 24/7...

 

maybe you have never been cheated ON, but there's more to recovering your own peace of mind, sanity and self worth after betrayal at the highest level than just " honesty and being loving." not's not nearly enough, why would you think that's enough?

[boldjack]

Sunny, Honesty and love are the foundations of ALL marriages, not just broken ones. What Tami and Kismet pointed out to me is that nobody really knows what's in another persons heart. We can only go by their actions. The op has shown by her actions that she is committed to remaking the marriage. If this honesty and love are truly present then all else will follow. Regret, remorse, transparency, selflessness, affection all come from these same sources.

[2sunny]

Sunny, Honesty and love are the foundations of ALL marriages, not just broken ones. What Tami and Kismet pointed out to me is that nobody really knows what's in another persons heart. We can only go by their actions. The op has shown by her actions that she is committed to remaking the marriage. If this honesty and love are truly present then all else will follow. Regret, remorse, transparency, selflessness, affection all come from these same sources.

 

not true... honesty and love can be present - but that doesn't guarantee that a person won't cheat.

 

and the regret... etc... that you list can be acknowledged but if there is no follow through and a complete turn around by the cheater - then there is no basis of which to start.

 

even if there is a turn around - there is still the root of the original problem of why the cheating occurred to begin with that has to be resolved and only THEN can the relationship begin to find a new path.

 

IF the cheater holds that sense of entitlement attitude AT ALL - there is no way for repair...

 

so really, we have no idea how WILLING this OP really is... she's saying a few things that sounds all fluffy and good... but where's her proof that the action follows a few written words. what has she done to repair the marriage?

[marlena]

Nothing. There's nothing more you can do but wait. However, you have to also decide how much waiting and being at his mercy you will allow yourself....it can't be forever, that's no way to live, in my opinion. While I believe that the BS is within his/ her right to take as much time as he/she wants to heal, I also do not believe in keeping anybody emotionally captive.

 

I liked this post.

 

A BS also has to accept his/her responsibility in CHOOSING to stay in a marriage where trust has been boken. He/she could have very well gotten out. So, in that sense, he/she, too, is responsible for his choice. Seen in that light, he/she has to do his/her best to overcome his pain and learn to trust again. And it has to be done as soon as possibe. So "get over it already" is not such a bad thing IMO. It's hard work on both sides. Making someone pay a lifetime for an indiscretion is sadistic. Maybe some BSs get some kind of sick pleasure in torturing their disloyal spouses. It's one way to get back at them and make them pay big time.

 

I have heard BSs say: He/she is going nowhere. He/she is staying right here where I can make his/her life as miserable as he/she made mine.

 

That's is not working on repairing a marriage. It's pure vindictiveness.

[2sunny]

and the BS can also say "i deserve more than this" or "this isn't enough for me"

 

if the attitude from the WS isn't forthcoming enough and willing to do anything to repair the M - then it's not worth trying to repair.

 

and one person's idea of honesty is definitely not the same as the guy/gal standing next to you. everyone has their own idea of what honesty looks like... and you can't convince someone to have the same idea as yours... they just end up covering stuff up better/more... and that is definitely not "honesty"

[boldjack]

Sunny , Honest people can't cheat and remain honest people. You seem to have a problem with the concept of honesty. I stated that she must be honest with herself as well as with her H. If she does this (and believe me , it is hard) then all the questions you have asked are answered After rereading her posts and those of other posters, I believe that I was wrong in my assessment. Hey, it happens

[2sunny]

and my initial intuition still says something is "off"

 

it's her approach and presentation... something is off. she may not be sorry at all - just sorry she got caught.

 

my intuition never fails me. just an observation though.

[LakesideDream]

Fog, I read your post and began thinking about your question. I have been where your husband is, "in spades" as they say. I am having a hard time relating to the concept of "restitution".

 

I have a few suggestions that might have helped me. Most important... try to make your husband comfortable around you. Only you know how to accomplish that.

 

Hopefully, from what you say being the "girl he fell in love with" won't be a problem for you. That will be a real biggie.

 

I hope that your husband will be able to begin relaxing with you again. The feeling I miss most is going to bed and waking up knowing there was someone with me that loved me as much as I loved her. Alas, my now ex was a great actress.

[Dexter Morgan]

I have heard BSs say: He/she is going nowhere. He/she is staying right here where I can make his/her life as miserable as he/she made mine.

 

That's is not working on repairing a marriage. It's pure vindictiveness.

 

I agree.

 

However there is a distinction in what you are talking about and a BS expecting the WS to start acting like a spouse. There are certain things a BS should expect of the WS, and the WS should expect that there are now ground rules.

 

For instance, I have said this before. If I were to stay with a cheater, which I wouldn't, there would be certain things I'd expect.

 

I would NOT expect them to have me follow them around or stay grounded to the house. Thats not realistic and as you said, thats not working on a marriage.

 

I WOULD, however, expect that certain activities would now be over. Such as going out to clubs on girl's nights out. The kinds of social interactions that the WS has PROVEN they can't handle.

And if a WS/SO doesn't like it, then they care more about their nocturnal activities than the marriage/relationship.....and the door SHOULD hit them in the ass on the way out.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I liked this post.

A BS also has to accept his/her responsibility in CHOOSING to stay in a marriage where trust has been boken. He/she could have very well gotten out. So, in that sense, he/she, too, is responsible for his choice. Seen in that light, he/she has to do his/her best to overcome his pain and learn to trust again. And it has to be done as soon as possibe. So "get over it already" is not such a bad thing IMO. It's hard work on both sides. Making someone pay a lifetime for an indiscretion is sadistic. Maybe some BSs get some kind of sick pleasure in torturing their disloyal spouses. It's one way to get back at them and make them pay big time.

I have heard BSs say: He/she is going nowhere. He/she is staying right here where I can make his/her life as miserable as he/she made mine.

That's is not working on repairing a marriage. It's pure vindictiveness.

 

I completely disagree. A BS gets a lifetime of emotional pain and torment... saying "just get over it" is ludicrous. It's crazy and very self centered to even suggest that. If a WS is not willing to go through hell and back to make the marriage work, just pack the friggin bags and go! If your idea of marriage boils down to I'm going to get him before he gets me... You've already lost. No point in fighting to save anything.

 

Also, why do women always harp on trust. Is that all you believe gets damaged in an affair. Just trust?