Lessons from an OW

[2sure]

Taylor hit the nail on the head with her entire listing.

 

Through my experience with a couple of MM (PA) the biggest thing they ultimately got out of the affair was they LOVED talking about themselves...

 

In that they knew I only got to see part of them, so they were free to embellish the rest. They were free to become the man they wanted to see themselves as. The great provider. Busting his as* to provide, no less. Dad as coach. Financial Wizard. A man their wife should be pleased to have. Life of the party. etc. Hey, I only existed in this small part - so..

 

Why not indulge the whole fantasy. Because thats what it is. He is stepping away from himself, his real life and by adding OW - making a venue for his fantasy of the life he thinks he should have got. (Which is not the same as the one he wants in real life).

[OpenBook]

2sure I hope you don't mind my asking these questions. I believe there is something important in your story, something about the "karma" that happened to you, which I am seeking an understanding of. It has to do with how men perceive a woman, based on the woman's behavior.

 

I am not proud of my experience as OW, but I did take that lesson and applied it. I changed my expectations of myself and others, I raised the bar. Truly a lesson I needed to learn.

 

OK, but then you got married and your H subsequently cheated on you. So, what value was there really in raising the bar for yourself? Apparently it didn't take. Can you help me understand this better?

 

On another note...

 

Something I learned as an OW that helped my marriage recover when I later married and my H cheated.(yes, thats right- Karma came a knockin)

 

On D Day, I felt like : What did I do, What is he lacking, Why did he do this, How can I fix this ...etc etc ad nauseum.

 

But pretty quickly I realized that it wasnt my fault. The marriage didnt have any root problems yet. There was nothing wrong with me.

 

So many OW accept the justifications MM give for having the A. In fact, everyone always says that the A itself is a symptom or a result of another bigger deeper problem in a marriage. Bullsh*t.

 

Sometimes, yes. But the rest of the time the bigger, deeper problem in the marriage is just the WS.

 

Really? Is your H aware of your past experience as an OW? If so, do you think this has any bearing on his acts of infidelity?

 

Another poster said it best --

 

* By participating in it, you become tainted in their eyes.

 

I believe there is a lot of truth in this (more than most people recognize), both for the OW and the BS. Am I wrong, or exaggerating it too much? What's your take on it?

[DayDreamer75]

I would ask, in general, why do we accept to have relationships with people who don't treat us the way we deserve to be treated, who are not committed enough to us and who don't make us the most important people in their lives?

 

What do we really learn from this?

 

I think that generally this happens to people who trust easily and who believe that others can change. Who believe that the others are acting in good faith and would never do anything to hurt us... I think what we should learn from this is that we are not really strong enough to face the reality, that we are dreaming... And we need to work on ourselves to accept the things the way they really are... nobody can save us from our sadness or unhappiness but ourselves... and we need to recognize the situations that help us prevent & avoid future dramas . This applies to whether it has to do with a married person or a jerk or a serial cheater or a serial lier... all the people who treat us like this...

[2sure]

 

OK, but then you got married and your H subsequently cheated on you. So, what value was there really in raising the bar for yourself? Apparently it didn't take. Can you help me understand this better?

 

First - The person I was before I raised the bar for myself probably wouldnt have taken the risk I did just to re-marry. If I had not come to the realization that I deserved a good life - I know I would have turned a blind eye to my H's infidelity. I would have married for money. Had I not raised the bar for myself and those around me, I wouldnt have had the strength or the courage to attempt recovery and to demand better from him.

 

Really? Is your H aware of your past experience as an OW? If so, do you think this has any bearing on his acts of infidelity?

 

Yes - he knew a lot. While he didnt like it, he was non judgemental about it...and YES - I cannot help but think this knowledge gave him some comfort level regarding his own infidelity .

 

Much of our recovery was showing him that the bar was high, and I expected much more from him - above all else.

[OWoman]

I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU:

 

MARRIED SEX TOTALLY ROCKS!

 

As Kevin Bacon quoted about having a successful M:

 

Keep the fights clean and the sex dirty.

 

It's the people in the M who determine whether the sex is hot. If someone chooses not to spice it up or let it get old, well that's their choice.

 

Sure as hell ain't mine.

 

GEL

 

Amen to that!!

 

Our sex life gets better and better. Having 24x7 access knowing that there's no goodbye in a couple of weeks time takes the pressure off, and lets you just enjoy... 24x7!

 

OK, back on topic - what I learned:

 

* That you get what you demand. Make yourself a priority, and insist he does too, and he will.

 

* That calling the shots all the time works for a while, but ultimately a more equal relationship with the power more equally shared is more sustainable, for both.

 

* That being loved and adored is great when it's mutual.

 

* That evil screwed up nasty Ws turn in to evil screwed up nasty xWs... but they're x.

 

* That change is surprisingly easy. Or, at least, easier.

 

* That love really does exist outside of hollywood.

[2sure]

Yeah, I dont know. Maybe the sex thing is MY issue.

[2sure]

Also, I did learn things about men in general & what they are looking for.

I think seeing MM gave me some insight that I still find useful and that has actually helped me be a better partner in Real relationships :

 

*Men do not like sarcasm.

*Men do not want to "compete" with their partners

*The line between Independent Woman and Ball Buster can be blurry for them

* Men, IMO - need more validation & appreciation than women

[Dexter Morgan]

As an OW I learned that MM dont always have real problems with their wife or marriage. They say they do for one of several reasons:

 

*They need to justify the A to themselves &/or to OW. To themselves, of course - to OW just to talk her into the A & so they dont look like the bad guy.

 

Exactly right. Funny how OW/OM, as well as the cheaters themselves, will try to justify what they are doing by saying, "if they weren't missing something in their, they wouldn't be cheating".

 

Only thing most of the time I think is missing in their marriage is the moral inability to have sex with other people rather than just with the same person, to whom they made vows with, for the rest of their lives.

 

In other words what is missing in marriage is the precense of "forsaking all others".

 

 

*They want to be seen as the victim (so you know they are harmless)

 

Oh my favorite line is, "I owe nothing to anyone. I'm not the one that made the vows to their spouse"

 

While the bolded part is true, and the spouse is more to blame, this is one of the most self-serving, selfish statements I hear all the time on LS.

 

Therefore, since the OW/OM didn't make the vows, married individuals are fair game for them. Whatever helps them justify doing horrible things to other people.

 

 

When my H cheated on me, I was helped by the fact that knowing the above - I almost couldnt take it personally.

 

What would your answer be to any OW out there that would tell you, "I didn't take vows with your husband, I owe you nothing" ?

[2sure]

 

Oh my favorite line is, "I owe nothing to anyone. I'm not the one that made the vows to their spouse"

 

 

What would your answer be to any OW out there that would tell you, "I didn't take vows with your husband, I owe you nothing" ?

 

OMG Dexter - I cannot tell you how many times I said that MYSELF. And , before it actually happened to me..I often said that if my spouse cheated on me, I would never blame OW for the same reason.

 

LOL. Oh boy, did that change on D - Day. :

 

I saw & felt for the first time that OW had chosen to particpate in MY life without my knowledge or consent.

 

My H may have invited her, but I held her just as responsible for accepting the invitation .

 

My animosity towards OW was based on the fact that SHE KNEW ABOUT ME, I didnt know about her.

 

Obviously, I felt obligated to introduce myself. And I really think that was a good thing to do for me, for H, and for her.

[taylor]

Through my experience with a couple of MM (PA) the biggest thing they ultimately got out of the affair was they LOVED talking about themselves...

 

In that they knew I only got to see part of them, so they were free to embellish the rest. They were free to become the man they wanted to see themselves as. The great provider. Busting his as* to provide, no less. Dad as coach. Financial Wizard. A man their wife should be pleased to have. Life of the party. etc. Hey, I only existed in this small part - so..

 

Why not indulge the whole fantasy. Because thats what it is. He is stepping away from himself, his real life and by adding OW - making a venue for his fantasy of the life he thinks he should have got. (Which is not the same as the one he wants in real life).

 

Boy can I relate to this post, 2sure. It's scary.

 

The scariest thing of all is I didn't see through my OM until 6 or 8 months after D-Day. That's when things didn't seem to "add up." And then they started to ADD UP, if you know what I mean. I had many "AHA" moments.

 

My OM loved to talk about himself...all good stuff of course. He was selling and I, like a naive idiot with a big, warm heart, well...I was buying. I was so captivated I didn't bother to read the fine print. And of course I didn't even open the whole box to see what was really inside.

 

But he talked and talked about himself. I knew so much about him. He knew nothing about me. For example, I knew his kids' names, birthdates, medical histories, school activities, grades on their report cards, their favorite colors, favorite toys and games. I knew what they liked to eat and I knew what they fought about. I knew one was afraid of the dark and the other liked her hair in a ponytail.

 

I knew all about his ex-girlfriend...her job, where she was from, the college she attended, her favorite pop, her favorite sports team, and of course all her faults and weaknesses.

 

I knew all the details of his ex-wife's life...her childhood, her birthdate, her work history, and of course all her faults, habits, weaknesses, and backstabbing activities.

 

I knew everything about him...of what he told me to be true. I knew all about his childhood, what made him happy, sad, mad, afraid. I knew his dreams and aspirations. I knew what he liked and didn't like. I knew his favorite color, dessert, and lucky number. I knew his frustrations and what gave him joy. I even knew what kind of sex he liked.

 

HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW MY KIDS' NAMES. HE DIDNT KNOW MY HUSBANDS NAME. He knew some of the activities I enjoyed and he was aware of some of my goals and aspirations...but he knew nothing of my past and I never discussed my family life with him. HE NEVER ASKED. IT WAS ALL ABOUT HIM.

[2sure]

Taylor - thats IT.

Some OW will say - we talk about my life, he cares about me, it isnt all sex.

 

And thats all true. But more often than not...

*when they do talk about her life - its as in "If we were together" or "If we were free to..." or " I would do this for you" Its all just fantasy conversation.

 

* Sure, he cares about you. You are HIS outlet. The A is all HIS, the part of his life just for HIM. You are special. Of course he cares about you.

 

*And the sex is great of course, but its not all about sex. It cant be. the fantasy would not be complete unless there were real feelings to back up his NEED to be desirable and wanted. He needs to know he fulfills you. The difference here is that it's based on his NEED to fulfill the fantasy not on your needs as a person.

[boldjack]

So sorry ,Ladies. Had I known that this was a MB thread I wouldn't have chirped in. Consider my post withdrawn.

[2sure]

But you know , with all of these harsh truths - we are all human - MM/MW, OW, BS etc.

 

Lessons come from all mistakes and experiences right? Anything you learn can be put into a GOOD/POSITIVE lesson.

[Cliche]

Sometimes it does works out, but I wouldn't bet on it. AT ALL.

I think even some of the people who ended up in the circumstances they wished to be in can attest to that.

Yes, I will agree that more often than not it does not work out where the MM divorces and starts a long-term committment with the OW.

 

I'll also tell you this...I did not enjoy the affair. I loved my partner then and now. I've always loved who he is; always love every second we spend together. But the affair was difficult for me (even though then and now, in retrospect, he tells me it was never an affair and doesn't like when I refer to it as that). But I did not like that he was married to another. It was painful.

 

BUT, the flip side to that is that I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about the type of woman I am. I eventually learned about priorities and self-respect and taking control of my own future. I tell SO all the time that even though our start was painful for me, it was a journey that I believe I needed to take. I'm pretty sure I would've felt that way regardless how it turned out (especially since at the point I made these discoveries, I was making plans that may not have included him if he chose it that way).

 

Also, I learned that the great thing about the past is that it is behind me.

[2sure]

Taylor -

 

I wrote this post when I first started at LS, please check it out:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1782626&highlight=corvette#post1782626

[marlena]

Taylor -

 

I wrote this post when I first started at LS, please check it out:

[COLOR=#990000]http://www.loveshack.org/forums/show...te#post1782626[/COLOR]

 

Amazing post. Poignantly human.

[65tr6]

The second most important thing I learned from my EA was this:

 

Don't give a man your heart if that's all he wants to give you is his penis. It's not an equal exchange.

 

wow, I just emailed your post to my wife, taylor. Great stuff. thanks

[2sure]

From one MM in particular, I took something very good away.

From him, based on him - I was able to get a clear picture of the man I wanted to have.

Like him - but not a cheater, you know?

 

Prior to that A, make expectations & requirements were not specific enough to be realized.

 

I also learned from him & other MM -

 

Listen More than Talk.

 

That was HUGE. Sure, everyone knows this but to learn to DO it is something else. Besides, there is ALWAYS the chance I have no idea what I'm talking about. I did this to become a better OW - but it made me a better person.

[Dexter Morgan]

Amazing post. Poignantly human.

 

We are all human, but whenever someone is f#####g someone elses spouse, knows, and doesn't care, someone just like them always says, "they are human". We know that:rolleyes:

 

But it is always done so as to downplay the severity and despicableness(yes, thats a word) of their actions.

[marlena]

Always done so as to downplay the severity and despicableness(yes, thats a word) of their actions.

 

That is nothing but your own personal, stubborn, narrow-minded, obssessive interpretation of things.

 

The sooner you get rid of this type of thinking, the better off you will be.

[2sure]

I dont know Dexter. I get what you're saying but I also have conflict within myself with it.

 

Ex: A lot of times, I am non judgmental regarding infidelity. Less so than I used to be...but still. Both here and in RL. As though I am almost OK with it, unless its in MY house. So, yeah - thats not good.

 

Also: I dont know if its my age, my past experiences, the things Ive been thru or what but

 

At almost any crisis my bottom line is: Did anybody die??

That is not to say I am cavalier about crisis, but this is how I cope.

 

I know that isnt for everyone

[Dexter Morgan]

That is nothing but your own personal, stubborn, narrow-minded, obssessive interpretation of things.

 

The sooner you get rid of this type of thinking, the better off you will be.

 

Spoken like someone who is partial to betraying others. I expect nothing more.

 

The sooner you get rid of that type of thinking the better off SOMEONE ELSE will be.

[Dexter Morgan]

I dont know Dexter. I get what you're saying but I also have conflict within myself with it.

 

Ex: A lot of times, I am non judgmental regarding infidelity.

 

Not jumping you, but my guess is because you were a party to other women's betrayal over the years.

 

I have not engaged in cheating on anyone, nor have I been a party in betraying someone's husband/boyfriend. I did once start dating someone that lied to me about having a bf, and once I found out, she was history.

 

so I guess therefore I reserve the right to be "judgemental".

 

someone always says, don't judge someone until you have been in their shoes.

 

1) When it comes to infidelity/cheating and screwing other people's spouses/girlfriends, I'll never be in their shoes

 

and

 

2) the whole thing about judging others...people do it ALL the time...even the ones that say they don't judge.

 

but then again, there is judging and calling it like one sees it.

 

 

At almost any crisis my bottom line is: Did anybody die??

 

Nobody has to die to be appalled by lousy behavior and the betrayal and hurt of others.

 

I see what you are trying to say, but again, some would use that phrase to downplay what happened. "i mean, it isn't the end of the world, nobody died!!" Well hells bells, I guess I now have a green light to start f#####g around on women. They'll live, right?

 

Again, not jumping you, just the way I see it.

[2sure]

Dexter - You are right. No denying that. I think the problem some people have with your viewpoint is not that you are wrong...but that you are rightous.

(said laughingly FYI)

 

I said to someone here very recently that I certainly do have remorse for the things I have done (being OW) and sadness of course over my own H's infidelity...

 

But you know, I cannot help but think that both of those experiences have taught me and that without either of them....I would not be the person I am right now.

 

And, I do believe I am a better person today than I was before I was OW AND before I was cheated on.

 

Sure, I wish my H had not done it.

But , I just cannot have regret.

 

I rightously insist on personal growth. LOL

[Dexter Morgan]

Dexter - You are right. No denying that. I think the problem some people have with your viewpoint is not that you are wrong...but that you are rightous.

 

Not righteous at all. Nobody is perfect. One does not have to be righteous or "holier than thou" to be appalled by despicable behavior.

 

 

I said to someone here very recently that I certainly do have remorse for the things I have done (being OW) and sadness of course over my own H's infidelity...

 

But you know, I cannot help but think that both of those experiences have taught me and that without either of them....I would not be the person I am right now.

 

And, I do believe I am a better person today than I was before I was OW AND before I was cheated on.

 

And all of that would make you possibly the only OW on this board I can respect.

 

Sure, I wish my H had not done it.

But , I just cannot have regret.

 

Neither can I .....thats why I divorced the b!tch!!